what the word "grace" will never alter.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 23, 2018

At least he gets. The part that water baptism does not save. But then he takes us right back to law (walking in the commandments)

he still does not understand what the atonement means, or what justification means. He is like those in galations trying to begin in the spirit. Yet complete in the flesh. (Obedience to Gods commands) What was the word paul used about them?

Ralph- · Feb 23, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Yes, God forbid that we should walk in his commandments!

he still does not understand what the atonement means, or what justification means. He is like those in galations trying to begin in the spirit. Yet complete in the flesh. (Obedience to Gods commands) What was the word paul used about them?

Click to expand...

See? Proof in point. You people are literally incapable of hearing the necessity to keep God's commandments as being anything else except you trying to save yourself.

followjesus · Feb 24, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

is the issue that people are " adding to salvation" or is it that people are claiming grace omits what Jesus Said of salvation? and then claiming someone else is adding to salvation, because they understand not to omit what the Lord said about salvation.

the truth is, that is we do not obey God, there is an eternal consequence, this is according to Jesus, paul, John, peter. sure we are saved " for good works" but if we do not do them, we then have to face the same Judgement regardless our works will either condemn, or justify us, not according to the law of moses, but according to Jesus the Judge. who says its about what we do.

so to believe that our deeds do not determine anything rewuires a person to not accept or Believe Jesus the Judges, statement about what will determine either Life in the Kingdom or eternal punishment. Grace, doesnt change the truth of that, if we say " we are new creations, we have the Holy spirit, we are children of God"

then we have to walk as such, if we do not, then we have the faith without works, which some would call " not genuine because there are no works produced by faith" either way, Genuine faith produces the good works, the argument should never be good works are of no consequence to salvation because its very clear that our deeds are what will determine eternal Life, or the wrath of God. the issue is why does one chapter, one thing then omit the other from the same letters ? shouldnt we understand grace along side the rest ?

romans 2 " But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

you see Grace doesnt change this, its true. we will each stand before Jesus who taught the Gospel and told us what His judgement is. if we accept it now, when we face Him we will not be ashamed, if we are merciful, We will receive mercy, if we forgive, we will be forgiven, if we do Good we will receive Good, if we do evil we will receive evil.

if a persons definition of Grace, changes the clear truth of the eternal Judgement, then the interpretation of grace is wrong and misapplied. Grace is good if its the Grace of God, but Grace can also be distorted .....

Jude 1 " For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

when a person takes the Grace of God in truth you have Grace that speaks the opposite

titus 2 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

its important to accept Grace and truth, together thats what teaches us to deny worldly lusts, and to live upright , sober godly lives in this world. taking Grace and saying " because of Grace, our deeds no longer matter" is off track. everyone can agree with the statement " were saved By Grace not by anything we have done" thats true, but all the rest is also true and there to define exactly what the statement " saved by Grace actually means in context. if Grace meant everything else doesnt apply to you, the rest would never have been written in the same epistles.

paul taught the same Judgement Jesus taught, either eternal Life in the Kingdom, or being cast nto the outer darkness for eternity. nothing will change what Jesus said of His kingdom or His return and Judgement, he teachus us to Have faith in God, and also in Him, but He teaches us to Obey Him because He is speaking Gods commands also. him saying " Have faith" doesnt omit Him saying " Obey my commands" or " if you Love me you will obey my commands"

if a believer accepts that, it will shape thier conscience and lead to repentance. if we Believe Jesus is saying " If you Love me, you will obey My commands, if you do not Love me you will not obey me, this is not my word, but the Fathers who sent me His word."

Knowing Jesus suffered and died so greatly, and Knowing He said that Just before He went to the cross on Our Behalf. at some point we have to Love Jesus, and He tells us How to Love Him right, By Loving each other right. by taking care of others in His name, and repenting of the wrongs we do to each other. Gods commandments are to do whatever is right at the time and always treat others How Jesus taught us. thats what we will be held accountable to the things Jesus taught. unless were at a point where Jesus isnt the Lord and savior who will return to Judge the world in righteousness........and give to each man according to what they have done whether good or Bad. in the church we actually have less excuse than someone who doesnt Know the scripture.....

followjesus · Feb 24, 2018

stonesoffire said:

so then if one has faith...they will obey?

and if One does not obey, they have no faith?

so what happens to a christian who says "I believe Jesus died and rose again and Im saved" yet they continue Living in disobedience? are they still saved because they have no faith? or are they saved by faith regardless whether they obey, or disobey?

when you say the Only way to receive anything is by Faith. you are also saying obedience is How a person shows true Faith.

so is a person guaranteed salvation if in thier mind they believe " i dont have to stop sinning, i dont have to obey God...because of Grace Im alraedy saved and could never not be saved.

and they live thier Life as a servant of sin never repenting always saying grace. would that person then also be saved? or does it ultimately matter whether the believer repents, and does Gods Will ? does it matter if a believer holds grudges against others when they offend them? does it matter if we repay evil with evil?

what we do Has to matter whether we say " faith produces works" or if we understand " faith is to obey the Lord and do the things He taught us to do" or even " we need to repent and obey Gods Word"

if we hold that what we doesnt apply or matter, well never do what were taught. if we understand Grace God has forgiven us and Loves us and is calling us to repentance, all we have to do is Learn and follow His teachings Now. "

we learn that Jesus expressly teaches along the way " you need to do these things, you need to live this way, you need to treat others Like im teaching you, Love each other as i loved you...... the instructions are what teaches us Grace is what keeps us while we Learn to Live right and then becomes what we offer to others Grace when they dont deserve it all because God gave us His Grace. we never want to omit the teaching and instruction part However, we need that as well as all the truth about Grace. it works to bring us to real inward repentance that lasts as a changed person rather than a person who wants to do bad, and has to do good. we become those who want the will of God, so we Live it Knowing its truth

mailmandan · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

There are those who believe that we are not saved until AFTER we receive water baptism. Does that mean it literally saves you or not?

The NOSAS indoctrination can easily lead to type 2 works salvation.

Don't be so naive.

DJ2 said:

Here is a statement below made by someone else who attends the church of Christ that I was previously in a discussion with:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help to save us."

Would you still make the argument that no one is making the argument that obedience literally saves a person? Here is a statement below made by a Roman Catholic that I was in a discussion with.

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works listed above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think that by not teaching that salvation comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved based on accomplishing this check list of works above and they call that salvation through faith. It's all just Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors. I actually grew up in the Roman Catholic church.

My doctrine does not promote works salvation or a license to sin, so I don't understand what your beef is with me. It sounds to me like you are determined to attack anyone who is in the OSAS camp and accuse them of promoting a license to sin.

DJ2 · Feb 24, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Did the Hebrews who were commanded to walk around Jericho cause the walls to fall? No.

Did the Hebrews who covered their doorposts with blood cause the angel of death to turn away? No.

Do we being water baptized cause our remission of sins? No.

We both believe there is a point of remission of sins. Correct? You think it is at some point during your belief in God, I believe it is also during our belief in God. My point is at baptism. When is your point?

Whenever the point, does that point cause the remission of sins? Does our reaching that point cause the remission of sins?

If you would just stop and answer these questions you would see my point.

seed_time_harvest · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

If a person has been saved by grace through faith then they are GOD’s workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works and they will seek to purify themselves even as they are pure.A person that Is not saved by grace would not have a desire to be obedient anyway.
Those that are saved and use grace as a way to say that disobedience won’t determine their destination would In my opinion be correct but a person that Is saved wouldn’t want to be disobedient.

Grace doesn’t teach us to be that way.

Ralph- · Feb 24, 2018

mailmandan said:

It means it does not HAVE to mean it literally saves you.
This is the point you can not grasp. Once saved always saved makes people unable to understand the necessity of works in salvation. I mean they are literally unable to understand how you have to be obedient to be saved and that not mean you are trying to save yourself. It's a spirit at work in the church causing this blindness.

mailmandan said:

(I don't know what type 2 works salvation is.)

Of course there are those who are busy working their way to the kingdom, thinking their work earns them a place there. And some of them are in the church too. But to think this is some widespread problem in the church is way way off.

Paul's grace teaching makes for good sermon material for preachers and teachers struggling to find something to talk about at their next meeting, but it's hardly addressing a problem among church attendees. The exact opposite is the problem among church attendees today. They think grace is their license to have no works with their faith when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works.

mailmandan said:

I am not being naive. The argument that water baptism literally saves a person is not being made in this thread. Does that mean nobody anywhere does not do that? No, of course not.

If you people can't understand the argument from this post below there really is no hope of you ever seeing the argument:

DJ2 said:

So ask yourself, mailmandan, "how can it be that what happened did not happen by the power of literally doing what they were told to do, yet what happened would not have happened had they not done what they were told to do?"

Wrestle that question to the ground and you'll understand the argument.

mailmandan said:

Come on. You pull this out and paste it every time you want to address an argument that is not even being made. Nobody is saying there is no one anywhere who says the power of works literally save us. Of course there are those who think that. And some of them are in the church too. You're using that to make it so EVERYBODY is saying the power of works literally save us. You are the one who is not seeing the truth of the situation. You're seeing works salvation behind every rock and tree. That is the sign of being indoctrinated in a narrow and false theology. The inability to comprehend your opponent's argument outside of what you've been told it is, and seeing opposition to your sacred doctrine in everything people say are the signs you are the victim of a false and misleading indoctrination.

mailmandan said:

Come on, mailman.......CATHOLIC, for heavens sake! That's like saying unbelievers think works save, which no one is even going to argue with.

Don't let your past history with the Catholics cause you to see their doctrine hiding behind every tree and bush. Start listening to what people are actually saying, and don't add to what they're not saying.

mailmandan said:

Well, once saved always saved does do that, whether you want to admit it or not. Just look at the obedience problem we have in the church today, and how quick Christians are to blast anyone who dare suggest they are actually making progress in their growth toward Christlikeness, and how works don't matter because (all together now) "salvation is not by works". And you're going to tell me once saved always saved doesn't promote grace as a license to sin?

Ralph- · Feb 24, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

People used to come to the cross through through the law. When people wanted to be saved they started by trying to be good. Then when they saw they couldn't do that they fell on God's mercy and were born again. But like I say, I don't think this is happening much today because of the twisted gospel that is being preached today. But the point is, the desire to be obedient used to be found in those who wanted to be saved. Their inability to be obedient then led them to Christ. So unsaved people did used to have a desire to be obedient. But we have a 'new' gospel now.

seed_time_harvest said:

Well, the Bible says otherwise.
Your life signifies what you're destined for.
But I know the new gospel says works don't matter one way or the other toward indicating your eternal fate because salvation is not by works. That is the new gospel in the church today.

seed_time_harvest said:

How can you look at the church and say this?

We live in a new time now. Christians are not noted for their obedience. They are not noted as being different and distinct from the world. That's because the new gospel says they do not have to be.

Budman · Feb 24, 2018

What are you even doing here, Ralph? Shouldn't you be out doing good works to assure yourself you're actually saved?

eternally-gratefull · Feb 24, 2018

DJ2 said:

Abraham believed God and it was acredited to him for righteousness, (his work later proved he had real faith)

The people in Egypt put the blood on doorposts where saved the MOMENT they put their faith in god. When judgment day came, Their salvation was revealed (the angel of judgment PASSED over them) Just like when judgment day comes for me, The My judgment will be passed over, Just like the lamb who gave its life for the children of Isreal. God gave his live (the son) for me, so when judgment day come, I will be saved.

I am not sure what Jericho has to do with eternal salvation and remission of sin. Unless you wanted to show victory, if this was it, Their victory was ASSURED the moment they chose to have faith in God. Proven by thy fact thei were patient and did what God asks.

Noah was saved the MOMENt he chose to believe. His trust is what caused him to do all that work.

Rahab was saved the MOMENT she had faith in god. Her trust in God caused her to do the work.

Abel was saved the MOMENT he put his faith in God, he later gave a sacrifice as a result of that faith.

I was saved the MOMENT I had saving faith, the MOMET I said Yes God, I want what you are offering. As a result of that faith, I was baptised. I went to church, I study to shew myself approved. I learn to serve the people God has put in my life and I try to let God worry about my needs. My works (yes baptism is a work) are a RESULT of my faith, just like all the examples I gave above. But all of us were saved, just like Abraham the moment we trusted (believed or had faith in) God.

You? You believe God does not fulfill his promise till you do a work. In this case, some man or woman immerses you in water.

Yeah, If you would see the point we are trying to make to you. You would see how and why we think you have a works oriented salvation. You claim God demands a work first. And he will save you then. We teach God demands we have faith in him first (through repentance and faith in HIS word) and ask him for his gift (he will not force it on anyone) and our works (water baptism included) follow.

Quite a huge difference my friend.

seed_time_harvest · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

People used to come to the cross through through the law. When people wanted to be saved they started by trying to be good. Then when they saw they couldn't do that they fell on God's mercy and were born again. But like I say, I don't think this is happening much today because of the twisted gospel that is being preached today. But the point is, the desire to be obedient used to be found in those who wanted to be saved. Their inability to be obedient then led them to Christ. So unsaved people did used to have a desire to be obedient. But we have a 'new' gospel now.

If you mean unsaved people are obedient as In obedient to faith meaning choose to say yes then I agree,the reason I say that Is because everyone knows there Is a GOD and By The Way,In the old testament Its says somewhere choose you this day whom you will serve.

Well, the Bible says otherwise.
Your life signifies what you're destined for.
But I know the new gospel says works don't matter one way or the other toward indicating your eternal fate because salvation is not by works. That is the new gospel in the church today.

How can you look at the church and say this?

Let GOD be true.

We live in a new time now. Christians are not noted for their obedience. They are not noted as being different and distinct from the world. That's because the new gospel says they do not have to be.

Let GOD be true

DJ2 · Feb 24, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Abraham believed God and it was acredited to him for righteousness, (his work later proved he had real faith)

The people in Egypt put the blood on doorposts where saved the MOMENT they put their faith in god. When judgment day came, Their salvation was revealed (the angel of judgment PASSED over them) Just like when judgment day comes for me, The My judgment will be passed over, Just like the lamb who gave its life for the children of Isreal. God gave his live (the son) for me, so when judgment day come, I will be saved.

I am not sure what Jericho has to do with eternal salvation and remission of sin. Unless you wanted to show victory, if this was it, Their victory was ASSURED the moment they chose to have faith in God. Proven by thy fact thei were patient and did what God asks.

Noah was saved the MOMENt he chose to believe. His trust is what caused him to do all that work.

Rahab was saved the MOMENT she had faith in god. Her trust in God caused her to do the work.

Abel was saved the MOMENT he put his faith in God, he later gave a sacrifice as a result of that faith.

I was saved the MOMENT I had saving faith, the MOMET I said Yes God, I want what you are offering. As a result of that faith, I was baptised. I went to church, I study to shew myself approved. I learn to serve the people God has put in my life and I try to let God worry about my needs. My works (yes baptism is a work) are a RESULT of my faith, just like all the examples I gave above. But all of us were saved, just like Abraham the moment we trusted (believed or had faith in) God.

You? You believe God does not fulfill his promise till you do a work. In this case, some man or woman immerses you in water.

Yeah, If you would see the point we are trying to make to you. You would see how and why we think you have a works oriented salvation. You claim God demands a work first. And he will save you then. We teach God demands we have faith in him first (through repentance and faith in HIS word) and ask him for his gift (he will not force it on anyone) and our works (water baptism included) follow.

Quite a huge difference my friend.

You are attempting to nullify the commands of God for the sake of your theology. You are doing the same thing that the Pharisees were doing in Matthew 15:3-6.

"I am saved by grace through faith therefore I do not need to obey the commands for salvation, I am already saved."

The Word of God states "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". But you deny this and "So you have made the commandment of God of no effect because of your tradition."

Ralph- · Feb 24, 2018

Budman said:

You say hypocrites will be saved when Jesus comes back. Jesus says they won't.

42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.-Matthew 24:42-51

eternally-gratefull · Feb 24, 2018

DJ2 said:

What I am doing is getting sick of your CRAP! I am getting sick of your LIES (I am not nullifying any command of God. I believe they ALL (not just one) should be followed. So do everyone here a favor. And stop lying about it what others are doing.

And there you go lying again, If you read my post. You would see I OBEYED GOD by being baptised. So I am not transgressing the law of God. I obeyed it, and I encourage everyone I know who comes to christ in my church to do the same. Why? Because God commanded everyone who is born again to doi it.

Your doing the same thing The jews did in Galatians, and the sad part is you can’t see it. .

Please. Show me where I have said this, Or I will report you for lying, I am again, getting sick of you lying about other people, while sitting their claiming how you are so righteous while they are sinners.

Show me where I said one person can ignore any command of God let alone baptism. I will wait, and when you can not show one post where I said this, I will have justified my reason to ignore and report you also.

No it does not say this, Yet you havce been shown this so many times in so many ways yet continue to ignore what everyone has showed you., then attack them as ignoring the word of God.

Remember we had this conversation before. You said JESUS did not speak aight authority. That non of the others spoke with authority. Only peter did. Keep on believing this and ignoring the rest of scripture, thanks on you.

You want to earn your salvation, Feel free. Stop attacking those and lying about those who wish to place their faih in the work of God for their salvation.

Budman · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

1. You never actually answered my question.

2. In the context, the hypocrite is a person who was never saved to begin with. One can serve Jesus and never be saved. See Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus says He never knew them.

3. Since you still sin, the term you're applying in the way you're applying it, refers to you.

4. This is the part where you sputter "But...but...it's not the sins that matter, it's the amount of sinning!"

followjesus · Feb 24, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

that may be one of the clearest and truest statements ive ever Heard about Grace, thanks for sharing that. God bless

seed_time_harvest · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

You say hypocrites will be saved when Jesus comes back. Jesus says they won't.

42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.-Matthew 24:42-51

The emphasis Is faith ,not works.

followjesus · Feb 24, 2018

Ralph- said:

It doesnt really make an impact but heres one to support yours

matthew 16 "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

galatians 5:24 " And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

2 timothy 2 " Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

repent for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near....the first words of Jesus ministry and still the Most resisted and explained away. you wouldnt think people full of the holy spirit would have so much resistance to Jesus words.....

john 14 " Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

it seems more like the h.s. most look to is teaching " Jesus words arent for you dont think you need to do what He said He will never judge people the way He said He would when He returns....its an echoe of what the false prophets said in the ot that brought wrath

thier God was too good to keeo His words of warning that said " if you do not Keep my ways i will destroy you utterly and make a spectacle of you to teach the world that i am God. Jesus has made our judgement clear Just the same as God did to them. we need to Hear Both Grace, in conjunction with the teachings aspect of acripture. really its always been the same design even in the law of Moses there is Great grace and Love Blessing and there is also wrath uponm disobedience. Paul teaches in His epistles that these things were written for our learning and admonishment to not think we will not be held accountable, But to take to Heart that we will be Held accountable, and the One who is our Judge is full of Grace for us, but also for the people we mistreat He Loves them as well.

He Has not become unjust in Christ, a person for instance who hurts a child, they will have to answer to Jesus because He said they will and He makes an extra harsh warning

john 14 " And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

to be Honest these types of things about Jesus, are things we should appreciate. People who offend children and sin against them should be held accountable and certainly will be according not to any of our opinions But according to the eternal Judge and Jury of mankind. there are terrible things people do in this Life and its Just that they pay. people rapem hurt, kill, governments slaughter, Bomb, cheat, people kill at random in mass shootings and car attacks, children are abiused and sold into sex slavery in places.

Gods Judgement and wrath Has a very Noble and good purpose, and it is not unclear that He is Just and will repay for those who cannot repay, the innocent victims, the martyrs of his Kingdom. God is the avenger of the weak and the wronged as well as the savior of those who will believe. as Job learned we cannot reason God to be and do as we judge, we have to accept His judgements

followjesus · Feb 24, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

actually the emphasis in those verses are ateaching to live as if Jesus may return tomorrow, be prepared, be doing the things He said to do.....More of a Live as the master said to Live Kind of emphasis

what the word "grace" will never alter.

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