what the word "grace" will never alter.
- Thread starter followjesus
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2 peter 2 " But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. "
1 corinthians 6 " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
jude 1 " Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
it seems the idea is that scripture, really doesnt have much value, when grace is the case made, its really sad. Gods warnings to us? irrelevant because of this grace scripture in this different place. repent of sin? irrelevant thats a work of the flesh and therefore not grace....Obey the Lord Jesus believe His teaching as He said to do ? nope thats irrelevant grace means nothing else matters God is so good, His word doesnt apply now.....should we actually believe anything in the bible that doesnt have the word Grace n the sentance? nope that Law and therefore will destroy you because you cannot ever obey God, thats salvation by works'"
its frustrating in a bdf ....but i suppose the scriptures Have alot of worth to some, who value Gods word over mans.
matthew 7 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore ( << i said that leading to this >) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
and all we really have to do, is believe His word and let it change our minds and Hearts to bring them Back to God, rather than rejecting His teachings, His wisdom and thinking we understand salvation better than Jesus who offers it...its a shame some of the doctrine out there.
1 corinthians 6 " What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
jude 1 " Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
it seems the idea is that scripture, really doesnt have much value, when grace is the case made, its really sad. Gods warnings to us? irrelevant because of this grace scripture in this different place. repent of sin? irrelevant thats a work of the flesh and therefore not grace....Obey the Lord Jesus believe His teaching as He said to do ? nope thats irrelevant grace means nothing else matters God is so good, His word doesnt apply now.....should we actually believe anything in the bible that doesnt have the word Grace n the sentance? nope that Law and therefore will destroy you because you cannot ever obey God, thats salvation by works'"
its frustrating in a bdf ....but i suppose the scriptures Have alot of worth to some, who value Gods word over mans.
matthew 7 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore ( << i said that leading to this >) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
and all we really have to do, is believe His word and let it change our minds and Hearts to bring them Back to God, rather than rejecting His teachings, His wisdom and thinking we understand salvation better than Jesus who offers it...its a shame some of the doctrine out there.
[h=1]Romans 2:6-8 New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT="]6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
“He who has ears, let him hear!” [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
“He who has ears, let him hear!” [/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
And God's Grace is still the same. 
[FONT="]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Romans 6:14
[/FONT]
your tag in context and How it applies to what we do[/FONT]
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
ecclesiastes 12 " Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
acts 10 " And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.acts 17 " And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
Paul ....romans 2 " 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."
john 5 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; ( john 6:68)27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
john 12 " He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Part of the issue is when we say things like " were saved by Grace" or " we walk by Faith" if we only pluck those scriptures out to fit a narrative that doesnt exist in the context its written, we see were saved by Grace" but its a sogan at that poinmt because all of the understanding of that statement is ommited and another explaination is put in its place as to what the scripture means, rather than accepting the words all around it that Give the context.
its actually a pattern of exactly what satan did in eden, His goal was to get them to disbelieve what God said, by another explaination. grace of God is a wonderful real and powerful thing, but when e take the word Grace and re define what God said when He spoke the offer forth, becomes terribly misguided because there is no truth to guide the belief. its omitted because " thats just not How i define Grace" is interjected into the thinking, so the solution is then omit anything the Bible clearly says " you need to do this" because thats a work of the flesh" whish ic silly because paul defines what works of the flesh are in galatians and ephesians 5, they are sinful deeds and actions and attitudes.
if we just stick to the real gospel we will find comfort and power to change us for the better. if we omit the real gospel, we will be reciting slogans and campaign lines. because we are refusing to accept all the context that God set forth for us to learn and grow in rather than omit and refuse to believe. false doctrine uis a dangerous thing, if anything is teaching Jesus words are not for christians its because they are trying to get you away from truth.
does it raise any red flags that your ideas cant be stated unless you take many scriptures out of the context. for instance
Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption" <<< you are using this as support for Once " saved always saved" but lets see what the context says it means real quick for one example
ephesians 4 " This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ; 21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with hishands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
ch 5 " Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
can you see how it is totally contrary to what you are exlaining if you simply take what paul is saying as the context for that verse? oif he is supporting osas with that verse why does He follow with all the warnings to the same people reading the letters first chapters? when you build your own theology using true verses out of context its not accurate at all . read what paul is saying this is just one small example with just a few paragraphs. Yet you can clearly see How different pauls explaination is, from the gog version. and the claim is pauls the guy with all the authority,...only....not is He disagrees with the new revolutionary grace revelation happening overthe last 20 years....
when a persons argument can Line up with Jesus statements about salvation, they are then on the correct copurse of understanding. when they have to make a person omit it, in order to explain thier doctrine its off course. Jesus offers salvation and sets it all in fromt of a believer His way is the way. has been since the beginning
Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption" <<< you are using this as support for Once " saved always saved" but lets see what the context says it means real quick for one example
ephesians 4 " This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ; 21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with hishands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
ch 5 " Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
can you see how it is totally contrary to what you are exlaining if you simply take what paul is saying as the context for that verse? oif he is supporting osas with that verse why does He follow with all the warnings to the same people reading the letters first chapters? when you build your own theology using true verses out of context its not accurate at all . read what paul is saying this is just one small example with just a few paragraphs. Yet you can clearly see How different pauls explaination is, from the gog version. and the claim is pauls the guy with all the authority,...only....not is He disagrees with the new revolutionary grace revelation happening overthe last 20 years....
when a persons argument can Line up with Jesus statements about salvation, they are then on the correct copurse of understanding. when they have to make a person omit it, in order to explain thier doctrine its off course. Jesus offers salvation and sets it all in fromt of a believer His way is the way. has been since the beginning
If a person claimed to be saved by believing in what they see or know is the truth, despite having no substance of the thing they believe is the true, then wouldn't the scriptures be evidence that what they believe to be faith is not faith since hope that is seen is not hope.
If faith comes by hearing and hearing by Son of God then of course they see that I taken the scripture out of context because they didn't see the Spirit of truth when they heard the Son of God by faith.
6 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
If faith comes by hearing and hearing by Son of God then of course they see that I taken the scripture out of context because they didn't see the Spirit of truth when they heard the Son of God by faith.
6 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Last edited:
Actually, you "add water and works" to "salvation by grace through faith, not works" (Ephesians 2:8,9). By doing so, you don't accept multiple passages of scripture as written (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Instead of properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, you distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.
You see scripture through the lens of your biased church doctrine/indoctrination.
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. That's what believers mean by "faith in Christ alone." *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. Now faith IN CHRIST ALONE does not mean that we are saved through faith apart from God's grace or that we never repented in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe the Gospel/place our faith in Christ alone for salvation or that authentic faith in Christ remains alone - "barren of works" so it's not faith alone "in that sense."
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, [belief/faith] "stand alone" in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something afterwards?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. *Not to be confused with what James means by faith "alone or only" -- which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains [alone] - "barren of works" (James 2:14-24)
The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). This explains why your theology relies heavily on faulty human logic and legalism.
You see scripture through the lens of your biased church doctrine/indoctrination.
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. That's what believers mean by "faith in Christ alone." *Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. Now faith IN CHRIST ALONE does not mean that we are saved through faith apart from God's grace or that we never repented in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe the Gospel/place our faith in Christ alone for salvation or that authentic faith in Christ remains alone - "barren of works" so it's not faith alone "in that sense."
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, [belief/faith] "stand alone" in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something afterwards?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. *Not to be confused with what James means by faith "alone or only" -- which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains [alone] - "barren of works" (James 2:14-24)
The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). This explains why your theology relies heavily on faulty human logic and legalism.
I have defined grace in a Biblical manner and backed up my argument with scripture in post #2.
You play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. You profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel. Even though you deny this, you teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Your doctrine of salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace that is a perversion of the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).
You also confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.
You play the same game in salvation as every other false movement of Christendom. You profess to teach that salvation is by grace through faith, but then redefine this in a way that is contrary to the Gospel. Even though you deny this, you teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Your doctrine of salvation is a subtle mixture of law and grace that is a perversion of the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).
You also confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.
Here is another good example of confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and followjesus gave it a like. Birds of a feather flock together.
God will "repay each person according to what they have done" does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
God will "repay each person according to what they have done" does not mean that we merit eternal life based on our deeds. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
R
mailmandan,
Very, very few people believe that works earn salvation. I know it makes for abundant sermon material, but that's just not what the church needs to hear. Unbelievers need to hear that, not believers.
You are confusing those who know that you have to have works to be saved or else you show you're not saved to begin with, with the very few who literally think they are saved by their works.
You are really going to have to open up your mind and begin to listen to them. They aren't saying your works earn you salvation. They are saying your works show you have it, and that those who can't show it aren't saved. That is the only reason the saved person has to have works. It's not in order to purchase salvation.
Very, very few people believe that works earn salvation. I know it makes for abundant sermon material, but that's just not what the church needs to hear. Unbelievers need to hear that, not believers.
You are confusing those who know that you have to have works to be saved or else you show you're not saved to begin with, with the very few who literally think they are saved by their works.
You are really going to have to open up your mind and begin to listen to them. They aren't saying your works earn you salvation. They are saying your works show you have it, and that those who can't show it aren't saved. That is the only reason the saved person has to have works. It's not in order to purchase salvation.
R
Because they are showing a fake, godless church that their hypocritical lack of works is the sign that they do not have the grace they claim they have. If they had it they would be living it and defending works, not attacking works as you trying to save yourself.
No, no. The hostility comes from the grace 'alone' (faith that has no works CAN save) side. They are then very successful at provoking the 'grace apart from works with works resulting' believers to start acting like them. Then they accuse us of being the bad people.
Anybody who's had to live with an emotionally abusive person can see right through their technique. It's a technique that comes right from the work of demons in a person. You can tell a tree by it's fruit is no truer than it is in those who push this 'don't have to do anything' grace doctrine. They most certainly show by how they treat people that they surely do believe that how they act means nothing at all. Little knowing they are showing themselves to be not saved.
No, no. The hostility comes from the grace 'alone' (faith that has no works CAN save) side. They are then very successful at provoking the 'grace apart from works with works resulting' believers to start acting like them. Then they accuse us of being the bad people.
Anybody who's had to live with an emotionally abusive person can see right through their technique. It's a technique that comes right from the work of demons in a person. You can tell a tree by it's fruit is no truer than it is in those who push this 'don't have to do anything' grace doctrine. They most certainly show by how they treat people that they surely do believe that how they act means nothing at all. Little knowing they are showing themselves to be not saved.
Last edited by a moderator:
R
I will make sure to use the word 'assembly', like I had started to recently, all the time now when referring to the church in the world with it's leaven of unbelievers and their doctrine.
At this time in history the assembly of God's people (composed of both believers and unbelievers) is being overrun with unbelievers. The signature of the unbelievers among us is their hypocrisy. Yet it is argued vehemently that hypocrisy means nothing to salvation, not knowing that Jesus said hypocrites are going to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth when he comes back.
At this time in history the assembly of God's people (composed of both believers and unbelievers) is being overrun with unbelievers. The signature of the unbelievers among us is their hypocrisy. Yet it is argued vehemently that hypocrisy means nothing to salvation, not knowing that Jesus said hypocrites are going to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth when he comes back.