-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
If you study up on the trinity, you can learn it too. It was derived something like how "car" was derived -- a bit here and a bit there, put all of it together and it works. So, if I'm supposed to take the time to understand electricity and cars, (which I don't think I need to do, since I believe in both without understanding it all), the shouldn't you take the time to study trinity?
And as far as "Who said this?" Look again. I gave three examples of doctrine, and that was one of three. You doubted what I considered doctrine, so I posted all three things I already used, and explained them further. I suspect you didn't get the part about "Jesus being the only way" because that was one out of three you think you agree with. (You actually never did say which one you disagreed with for a while, so I've been going with you disagree with all, until otherwise notified.) BUT, as much as people say they agree with that, I've seen other ways people think they are saved besides through Jesus.
And as far as "Who said this?" Look again. I gave three examples of doctrine, and that was one of three. You doubted what I considered doctrine, so I posted all three things I already used, and explained them further. I suspect you didn't get the part about "Jesus being the only way" because that was one out of three you think you agree with. (You actually never did say which one you disagreed with for a while, so I've been going with you disagree with all, until otherwise notified.) BUT, as much as people say they agree with that, I've seen other ways people think they are saved besides through Jesus.
Okay, maybe that's it. I'm not a clergyman. I'm just a guy with a bible. Maybe I have misconceptions about the doctrine you outlined in the OP of this thread. Here are some of my beliefs, as stated in a post above:
I'll go through your three examples of doctrine one at a time:
Yes. I believe this.
I'm not sure what this means. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Are you saying Jesus as a human man was omniscient omnipresent and omnipotent? If so, I question that. I realize Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. I realize Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were laid out and created. But are you saying Jesus is one and the same as God? If so, how can Jesus sit at God's right hand? Who did Jesus pray to while on earth? And who sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus when John the Baptist baptized him? These are troubling thoughts for me. But they are the things I wonder about. In fact, I started a thread to discuss that very thing ("Is Jesus God?"). In response one of CC's most respected members—a clergyman, I believe—told me I should go be with people of like mind. I did not find that suggestion helpful.
Are you saying God is the Trinity, and only the Trinity? Wouldn't is be possible for God to appear to us someday in other forms that we are not yet aware of? It seems to me that if God wanted to, he could do that. Labeling God as the Trinity, since that's all we've seen so far, seems to put a humanly conceived limit on him.
I'll go through your three examples of doctrine one at a time:
Yes. I believe this.
I'm not sure what this means. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. Are you saying Jesus as a human man was omniscient omnipresent and omnipotent? If so, I question that. I realize Jesus is in God, and God is in Jesus. I realize Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were laid out and created. But are you saying Jesus is one and the same as God? If so, how can Jesus sit at God's right hand? Who did Jesus pray to while on earth? And who sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus when John the Baptist baptized him? These are troubling thoughts for me. But they are the things I wonder about. In fact, I started a thread to discuss that very thing ("Is Jesus God?"). In response one of CC's most respected members—a clergyman, I believe—told me I should go be with people of like mind. I did not find that suggestion helpful.
Are you saying God is the Trinity, and only the Trinity? Wouldn't is be possible for God to appear to us someday in other forms that we are not yet aware of? It seems to me that if God wanted to, he could do that. Labeling God as the Trinity, since that's all we've seen so far, seems to put a humanly conceived limit on him.
D
If Jesus isn't God, than he lied. (John 8:48-59) He out and out said he was the great I AM. (Jehovah.)
As for the possibility of more god sightings? I have absolutely no idea why I would even think in that direction. God completely showed up when Jesus was baptized. (Matt. 3:13-17) Why would more of God stay away just so, someday, we might see a new form of God? And why would you think you're unlimiting God by coming up with new ways for him to prove himself? Has he not proved himself enough?
As for the possibility of more god sightings? I have absolutely no idea why I would even think in that direction. God completely showed up when Jesus was baptized. (Matt. 3:13-17) Why would more of God stay away just so, someday, we might see a new form of God? And why would you think you're unlimiting God by coming up with new ways for him to prove himself? Has he not proved himself enough?
How is John 8:59 inconsistent with what I believe? I stated above that "I believe Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were created." Here is more of the text from John 8 (NIV):
==============================================
What?? "coming up with new ways for him to prove himself?" Anyone who reads this thread can see I didn't say that. Why would you fabricate something like this? Are you not able to discuss this topic in a civil manner? I'm just not sure I am willing to limit God by ascribing him to a term invented by man.
==============================================
Instead of making things up to put words in my mouth why don't you just discuss the topic and answer my questions above? I'm not trying to trick you. I'm just trying to find answers for myself with a topic I've been grappling with.
==============================================
What?? "coming up with new ways for him to prove himself?" Anyone who reads this thread can see I didn't say that. Why would you fabricate something like this? Are you not able to discuss this topic in a civil manner? I'm just not sure I am willing to limit God by ascribing him to a term invented by man.
==============================================
Instead of making things up to put words in my mouth why don't you just discuss the topic and answer my questions above? I'm not trying to trick you. I'm just trying to find answers for myself with a topic I've been grappling with.
D
Jesus wasn't "with God;" he is God. I AM that I am. That's what Jehovah means. Jehovah is God. The one thing you couldn't say around Pharisees, or any Jews, was "I AM." They knew he was saying he is God. That's why they tried to kill him. That is the highest level of blaspheme. They got it. We got it. Either he IS God or he was the biggest conman in history.
And I'm not playing games.. That is doctrine. That is essential. That is the entire reason for Christianity. We follow God, or we follow a lie. Don't believe Jesus is God and it's clear to me you aren't a believer yet. How many ways do I have to say this? I've said this at least three times (that I can remember) so far.
I don't mince words.
And I'm not playing games.. That is doctrine. That is essential. That is the entire reason for Christianity. We follow God, or we follow a lie. Don't believe Jesus is God and it's clear to me you aren't a believer yet. How many ways do I have to say this? I've said this at least three times (that I can remember) so far.
I don't mince words.
Hi Prov910,
This may help I hope.
Article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html
The term kenosis comes from the Greek word for the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in His incarnation. The kenosis was a self-renunciation, not an emptying Himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus did not cease to be God during His earthly ministry. But He did set aside His heavenly glory of a face-to-face relationship with God. He also set aside His independent authority. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
As part of the kenosis, Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28). God does not get tired or thirsty. Matthew 24:36 tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” We might wonder if Jesus was God, how could He not know everything, as God does (Psalm 139:1-6)? It seems that while Jesus was on earth, He surrendered the use of some of His divine attributes. Jesus was still perfectly holy, just, merciful, gracious, righteous, and loving - but to varying degrees Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent.
However, when it comes to the kenosis, we often focus too much on what Jesus gave up. The kenosis also deals with what Christ took on. Jesus added to Himself a human nature and humbled Himself. Jesus went from being the glory of glories in Heaven to being a human being who was put to death on the cross. Philippians 2:7-8declares, "taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" In the ultimate act of humility, the God of the universe became a human being and died for His creation. The kenosis, therefore, is Christ taking on a human nature with all of its limitations, except with no sin.
This may help I hope.
Article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.htmlThe term kenosis comes from the Greek word for the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in His incarnation. The kenosis was a self-renunciation, not an emptying Himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus did not cease to be God during His earthly ministry. But He did set aside His heavenly glory of a face-to-face relationship with God. He also set aside His independent authority. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
As part of the kenosis, Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28). God does not get tired or thirsty. Matthew 24:36 tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” We might wonder if Jesus was God, how could He not know everything, as God does (Psalm 139:1-6)? It seems that while Jesus was on earth, He surrendered the use of some of His divine attributes. Jesus was still perfectly holy, just, merciful, gracious, righteous, and loving - but to varying degrees Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent.
However, when it comes to the kenosis, we often focus too much on what Jesus gave up. The kenosis also deals with what Christ took on. Jesus added to Himself a human nature and humbled Himself. Jesus went from being the glory of glories in Heaven to being a human being who was put to death on the cross. Philippians 2:7-8declares, "taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" In the ultimate act of humility, the God of the universe became a human being and died for His creation. The kenosis, therefore, is Christ taking on a human nature with all of its limitations, except with no sin.
Hi Prov910,
This may help I hope. Article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.html
The term kenosis comes from the Greek word for the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in His incarnation. The kenosis was a self-renunciation, not an emptying Himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus did not cease to be God during His earthly ministry. But He did set aside His heavenly glory of a face-to-face relationship with God. He also set aside His independent authority. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
As part of the kenosis, Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28). God does not get tired or thirsty. Matthew 24:36 tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” We might wonder if Jesus was God, how could He not know everything, as God does (Psalm 139:1-6)? It seems that while Jesus was on earth, He surrendered the use of some of His divine attributes. Jesus was still perfectly holy, just, merciful, gracious, righteous, and loving - but to varying degrees Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent.
However, when it comes to the kenosis, we often focus too much on what Jesus gave up. The kenosis also deals with what Christ took on. Jesus added to Himself a human nature and humbled Himself. Jesus went from being the glory of glories in Heaven to being a human being who was put to death on the cross. Philippians 2:7-8declares, "taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" In the ultimate act of humility, the God of the universe became a human being and died for His creation. The kenosis, therefore, is Christ taking on a human nature with all of its limitations, except with no sin.
This may help I hope.
Article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/kenosis.htmlThe term kenosis comes from the Greek word for the doctrine of Christ’s self-emptying in His incarnation. The kenosis was a self-renunciation, not an emptying Himself of deity nor an exchange of deity for humanity. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus “emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus did not cease to be God during His earthly ministry. But He did set aside His heavenly glory of a face-to-face relationship with God. He also set aside His independent authority. During His earthly ministry, Christ completely submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
As part of the kenosis, Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28). God does not get tired or thirsty. Matthew 24:36 tells us, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” We might wonder if Jesus was God, how could He not know everything, as God does (Psalm 139:1-6)? It seems that while Jesus was on earth, He surrendered the use of some of His divine attributes. Jesus was still perfectly holy, just, merciful, gracious, righteous, and loving - but to varying degrees Jesus was not omniscient or omnipotent.
However, when it comes to the kenosis, we often focus too much on what Jesus gave up. The kenosis also deals with what Christ took on. Jesus added to Himself a human nature and humbled Himself. Jesus went from being the glory of glories in Heaven to being a human being who was put to death on the cross. Philippians 2:7-8declares, "taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" In the ultimate act of humility, the God of the universe became a human being and died for His creation. The kenosis, therefore, is Christ taking on a human nature with all of its limitations, except with no sin.
D
What would Jesus do? Oh, come on now! We already know since he already did it. He'd announce he is God! He already did.
I am curious what book you'd have me read, since the Gospel of John wouldn't be in it.
Your questions aren't difficult. You simply don't want the answers given, even if they are the doctrines, the essentials, stuff every believer knows.
I am curious what book you'd have me read, since the Gospel of John wouldn't be in it.
Your questions aren't difficult. You simply don't want the answers given, even if they are the doctrines, the essentials, stuff every believer knows.
I have never met a doctrine, that someone did not formulate without digging deep into the Bible. So, for you, maybe you see infant baptism written in the pages of the bible, for me, I see adult baptism. I truly believe that is an important doctrine. However, I don't believe someone is going to be sent to hell for refusing to be "rebaptized."
I do believe 7th Day Adventists are saved, and know the gospel. They truly believe the doctrines of going to church on Saturday is obeying the 10 commandments. They practice vegetarianism. Well, I agree with them on that! But is it necessary to be saved? I supposed some SDA believe you aren't saved if you don't follow those things. For me, I don't think those things would keep someone from being with Jesus in eternity.
So, I have read and studied the Bible. I know what God has taught me. So how to others come to different conclusions? I will leave that to God.
I do believe that Jesus is God, and anyone not believing that is not saved. So I guess that is my line in the sand. Although with some other basic doctrines.
But let's face it, in the end, believing in Jesus is really the only thing that matters. That means knowing who he is, what he came to earth to do, including his death, resurrection, and mission he gave for us to follow, making disciples.
Anything else is non-essential. But not to say non-essentials are not important to people.
I do believe 7th Day Adventists are saved, and know the gospel. They truly believe the doctrines of going to church on Saturday is obeying the 10 commandments. They practice vegetarianism. Well, I agree with them on that! But is it necessary to be saved? I supposed some SDA believe you aren't saved if you don't follow those things. For me, I don't think those things would keep someone from being with Jesus in eternity.
So, I have read and studied the Bible. I know what God has taught me. So how to others come to different conclusions? I will leave that to God.
I do believe that Jesus is God, and anyone not believing that is not saved. So I guess that is my line in the sand. Although with some other basic doctrines.
But let's face it, in the end, believing in Jesus is really the only thing that matters. That means knowing who he is, what he came to earth to do, including his death, resurrection, and mission he gave for us to follow, making disciples.
Anything else is non-essential. But not to say non-essentials are not important to people.
I think we both know that The Good Book is the bible. It has a lot of answers in it. As for me, I prefer reading and studying the bible myself, rather than solely depending on what someone else tells me is in it. Sure, I gratefully accept guidance from others. In fact, I seek guidance from others. But any answers from other people, or from other books aside from the bible, need to be vetted against the bible. For whatever reason, there have been a lot of misinterpretations and false teachings over the years by various churches and individuals. Tares among wheat. (And before you fly off the handle yet again and call me a non-believer I am not saying the doctrine points you outlined above are false teachings. I'm just trying to study and understand a couple of them for myself.)
You didn't answer several of the questions I posed in post #59 or post #63. I made an honest effort to lay out my inquiries and areas of concern. You seemed offended that anyone would dare to question such things or validate them in the bible itself. But don't trouble yourself. There's no need now for you to address any of the questions I asked above in this thread. Considering the questions I posed above would just cause you more angst.
======================================================
As for the theme of this thread—"What's that other stuff called?"—I guess I'm interested in a more basic inquiry, "What is doctrine based upon?" I suspect the answers are right there in the bible. Or not.
In studying what the bible has to say about various beliefs, even doctrinal points, I have to admit that I proceed with caution. Sometimes I think we just have to be satisfied that there are things humans cannot comprehend. Like God's magnitude and awesomeness. Why do clergymen and theologians spend so much time trying to define and characterize God? God is bigger, more powerful and more wise than any definition or characterization than we mere humans can try to pin on Him.
You didn't answer several of the questions I posed in post #59 or post #63. I made an honest effort to lay out my inquiries and areas of concern. You seemed offended that anyone would dare to question such things or validate them in the bible itself. But don't trouble yourself. There's no need now for you to address any of the questions I asked above in this thread. Considering the questions I posed above would just cause you more angst.
======================================================
As for the theme of this thread—"What's that other stuff called?"—I guess I'm interested in a more basic inquiry, "What is doctrine based upon?" I suspect the answers are right there in the bible. Or not.
In studying what the bible has to say about various beliefs, even doctrinal points, I have to admit that I proceed with caution. Sometimes I think we just have to be satisfied that there are things humans cannot comprehend. Like God's magnitude and awesomeness. Why do clergymen and theologians spend so much time trying to define and characterize God? God is bigger, more powerful and more wise than any definition or characterization than we mere humans can try to pin on Him.
F
From Theopedia. The essential doctrines of Christianity;
- The deity and humanity of Christ
- The doctrine of the Trinity (including the deity of the Holy Spirit)
- Virgin birth of Jesus
- The bodily resurrection of Christ
- Salvation by grace through faith
- The second coming of Christ
- The existence of Heaven and Hell
- the Resurrection of the dead
- Life everlasting
D
This is disingenuous. You say you only learn from the Bible yet got all excited when Desert's Rose gave you links to a place that answers your questions.
You tell me I'm supposed to learn how a car works, and yet you aren't willing to learn how the trinity works.
I'm no Bible scholar either. I agree with you that trinity isn't in the Bible. I'm no Bible scholar either. So I already put in the effort to learn what it is from Bible scholars. Now you want me to answer everyone of your questions? Why? According to you no one can pin him down, understand him, and you come in with the assumption that anything outside the Bible cannot answer your questions, (unless links you like are handed to you from others.) And this was my post trying to figure out what the word was for the non-essentials.
I really didn't start this post to do your effort. But now that I see you prefer to learn only what you want of God and have proven it several times, my effort is better used praying that you come to the true God. Not the one you prefer.
Why do clergymen and theologians spend so much time trying to define and characterize God? Because they, like I, love to learn all we can about the one and only God. It's what people do in relationships.
You tell me I'm supposed to learn how a car works, and yet you aren't willing to learn how the trinity works.
I'm no Bible scholar either. I agree with you that trinity isn't in the Bible. I'm no Bible scholar either. So I already put in the effort to learn what it is from Bible scholars. Now you want me to answer everyone of your questions? Why? According to you no one can pin him down, understand him, and you come in with the assumption that anything outside the Bible cannot answer your questions, (unless links you like are handed to you from others.) And this was my post trying to figure out what the word was for the non-essentials.
I really didn't start this post to do your effort. But now that I see you prefer to learn only what you want of God and have proven it several times, my effort is better used praying that you come to the true God. Not the one you prefer.
Why do clergymen and theologians spend so much time trying to define and characterize God? Because they, like I, love to learn all we can about the one and only God. It's what people do in relationships.
I'm not sure whether you do this on purpose, or it's just that you don't read carefully. But again you've fabricated something that I did not say and attributed it to me. (Don't worry. I forgive you for your fabrication.) I did not say I only learn from the bible. In fact, I said just the opposite. I welcome wisdom from other people and other books aside from the bible. But when I hear or read something outside the bible I try to reconcile it with what the bible has to say on the matter.
*sigh* Where do you get things like this? I did not say I am not willing to learn about the Trinity. (Don't worry. I forgive you once again for your fabrication.) I am trying to learn about the Trinity. The problem is, I don't think anyone fully understands it. It is an man-made construct in an effort to define God. As I've said above, human efforts to define or limit God are futile. We cannot comprehend God's awesomeness, His mightiness, or His infinite wisdom. I believe that if God wanted to appear to us in another form someday, He could. To my knowledge He has not done so. And perhaps He never will. But in the mean time I choose not to define God by a non-biblical term that some well meaning theologian made up a century after the crucifixion of Christ. I'm not denying the Trinity. I'm just saying I don't know. Apparently there are lots of folks more knowledgeable than me who do know with certainty that God exists only as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If they have been blessed with this knowledge, then good for them. I aspire to such understanding.
As for the car example, you brought that up. I merely suggested that it is invalid to compare a relatively simple mechanical device to God. You could understand a car engine with a little effort. No human will ever fully be able to understand or comprehend God.
Again with your fabrications. I my previous post, right up above, I said just the opposite. I've given up on getting any biblical help from you, other than a regurgitation of what you've been told to believe. (I again forgive you for another fabrication you attribute to me. You haven't even come close to the 70 x 7.)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. But I'm sure you mean it in a positive and fruitful way, right?
*sigh* Where do you get things like this? I did not say I am not willing to learn about the Trinity. (Don't worry. I forgive you once again for your fabrication.) I am trying to learn about the Trinity. The problem is, I don't think anyone fully understands it. It is an man-made construct in an effort to define God. As I've said above, human efforts to define or limit God are futile. We cannot comprehend God's awesomeness, His mightiness, or His infinite wisdom. I believe that if God wanted to appear to us in another form someday, He could. To my knowledge He has not done so. And perhaps He never will. But in the mean time I choose not to define God by a non-biblical term that some well meaning theologian made up a century after the crucifixion of Christ. I'm not denying the Trinity. I'm just saying I don't know. Apparently there are lots of folks more knowledgeable than me who do know with certainty that God exists only as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If they have been blessed with this knowledge, then good for them. I aspire to such understanding.
As for the car example, you brought that up. I merely suggested that it is invalid to compare a relatively simple mechanical device to God. You could understand a car engine with a little effort. No human will ever fully be able to understand or comprehend God.
Again with your fabrications. I my previous post, right up above, I said just the opposite. I've given up on getting any biblical help from you, other than a regurgitation of what you've been told to believe. (I again forgive you for another fabrication you attribute to me. You haven't even come close to the 70 x 7.)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. But I'm sure you mean it in a positive and fruitful way, right?