When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

I will repeat this for us all to read again; I think you have a MID-TRI. raptue as I am. That is the BEST view. God bless us all, Hoffco

How do you figure that??

The Trib is OVER before anything listed below starts!

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Trib is over, then the sun will be darkened, etc. The Wrath comes even after this. There is no mid-Trib here. Everything happens AFTER. Why??? Because the Tribulation has NOTHING to do with God's wrath or the Wrath of the Lamb. The Tribulation is heightened persecution of Israel and/or Believers just as Jesus describes and it includes deception of the False One.

 

[PlainWord]

The Fourth Seal


• Revelation 6:7-8

The Fourth Seal Opened


And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

​

• Revelation 13:15b

And ... that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.​

Commentary: - Revelation 6:7-8

And when he had opened the fourth seal... Death... was... over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

In Revelation 6:7-8 with the breaking of the Fourth Seal:
Authority of death is given to work thru the anti-christ's rule to kill a fourth part of the Earth; For the anti-christ will kill you by the sword with his military might. He will kill you with hunger by the fact that you will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark. He will kill you with death by either the taking or the refusing of the Mark (i.e. You will die spiritually if you take the Mark or you will die physically if you do not take the Mark). He will kill you with his beasts or his loyal followers in various nations thru out the Earth, too.

You are making a common mistake that many people make. You are assuming that 1/4 of the world is killed during the 4th seal. That is NOT what the text says. It says the Green Horse (Chloros, which is incorrectly translated "Pale") is given power over the fourth of the earth to kill. It doesn't say this horse kills 1/4 of the earth. Read it again.

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth...

How do they kill?

to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Sword = War
Hunger = Starvation
Death = Disease or Sickness
Beasts = Countries/Governments

You correctly recognize the symbolism for "beasts" being "nations or governments." So, we see one method of killing is using nations or governments. We have several Islamic nations who are considered State Sponsors of Terrorism such as Syria and Iran. Until recently, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were killing Christians and more moderate Arabs.

If you understand that the horse is NOT pale, but instead is GREEN, then you can understand the symbolism represents Islam - Green being the official color of Islam. Everywhere else the word, CHLOROS, is used it is correctly translated into Green. But since the translators have never heard of a Green Horse they went with the secondary translation which could be taken as Pale.

Right now 22% of the world is Islamic. Islam is still rapidly growing and they are killing and persecuting their own people in many countries who either haven't converted to Islam or are not radical enough for them. Plus they use terrorism abroad to kill and are fighting right now with Israel and have fought among themselves for years. So they are killing within the 4th part of the world which they control, and outside their area with terrorism.

Many of the poorest countries of the world are Islamic so they kill with Hunger. Disease is most common among poor countries, plus the Syrians were recently killing with nerve gas which was also used during the war between Iran and Iraq in the late 1980s.

We CANNOT conclude that the Mark of the Beast takes place within the 4th Seal. We have nothing that places the Mark of the Beast within the Great Tribulation other than our own logic and speculation. Jesus is the only one who gives the starting and ending point of the Great Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus doesn't mention anything about the Mark of the Beast. Jesus does mention wars, rumors of wars, hunger and pestilences as being BEFORE the Tribulation. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the 4th seal precedes the Tribulation and that the Tribulation is over by the 6th seal. The Death event(s) appear to connect with the 5th seal.

As for the Mark of the Beast, we know for sure that this Mark is still in force and taking place after Christ is on earth. We know this from Rev 14. Christ is here and then the warning goes out not to take the Mark. Christ reigns for 1,000 years so sometime during that reign it would appear the Mark is happening.

 

[PlainWord]

• Revelation 6:9-11

The Fifth Seal Opened


And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little while, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

​

• Revelation 20:4

And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

​

• Revelation 7:14 and Revelation 7:9

14 "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" ... 9 "A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"

I agree with your conclusions here. These are the mass death events of Christians and saved Jews. Where do you locate the Rapture since John doesn't speak a word about it just as Christ never discusses an earlier, additional return where He comes to rapture and take people to heaven???

We are also not taught that there is a great revival to account for all these saints still being here to be killed. In fact, we are taught the opposite. Paul teaches a falling away. Christ questions in Luke 18 if He will find any faith left on earth when He returns. This is an odd statement for Christ to make if He came and took all the Christians.

7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

 

[Jason0047]

You are making a common mistake that many people make. You are assuming that 1/4 of the world is killed during the 4th seal. That is NOT what the text says. It says the Green Horse (Chloros, which is incorrectly translated "Pale") is given power over the fourth of the earth to kill. It doesn't say this horse kills 1/4 of the earth. Read it again.

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth...

How do they kill?

to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Sword = War
Hunger = Starvation
Death = Disease or Sickness
Beasts = Countries/Governments

You correctly recognize the symbolism for "beasts" being "nations or governments." So, we see one method of killing is using nations or governments. We have several Islamic nations who are considered State Sponsors of Terrorism such as Syria and Iran. Until recently, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were killing Christians and more moderate Arabs.

If you understand that the horse is NOT pale, but instead is GREEN, then you can understand the symbolism represents Islam - Green being the official color of Islam. Everywhere else the word, CHLOROS, is used it is correctly translated into Green. But since the translators have never heard of a Green Horse they went with the secondary translation which could be taken as Pale.

Right now 22% of the world is Islamic. Islam is still rapidly growing and they are killing and persecuting their own people in many countries who either haven't converted to Islam or are not radical enough for them. Plus they use terrorism abroad to kill and are fighting right now with Israel and have fought among themselves for years. So they are killing within the 4th part of the world which they control, and outside their area with terrorism.

Many of the poorest countries of the world are Islamic so they kill with Hunger. Disease is most common among poor countries, plus the Syrians were recently killing with nerve gas which was also used during the war between Iran and Iraq in the late 1980s.

We CANNOT conclude that the Mark of the Beast takes place within the 4th Seal. We have nothing that places the Mark of the Beast within the Great Tribulation other than our own logic and speculation. Jesus is the only one who gives the starting and ending point of the Great Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus doesn't mention anything about the Mark of the Beast. Jesus does mention wars, rumors of wars, hunger and pestilences as being BEFORE the Tribulation. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the 4th seal precedes the Tribulation and that the Tribulation is over by the 6th seal. The Death event(s) appear to connect with the 5th seal.

As for the Mark of the Beast, we know for sure that this Mark is still in force and taking place after Christ is on earth. We know this from Rev 14. Christ is here and then the warning goes out not to take the Mark. Christ reigns for 1,000 years so sometime during that reign it would appear the Mark is happening.

I have no confirmation in Scripture that this is Islam. I just believe what Scripture says with a normal plain straight forward reading. The person who rides the horse is called Death. Then it says,

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill"

Did you catch that? It says, power was given to him over the 4th part of the Earth to KILL. So this guy has power to KILL a 4th part of the Earth. Don't understand how you can't see that.

 

[Jason0047]

I agree with your conclusions here. These are the mass death events of Christians and saved Jews. Where do you locate the Rapture since John doesn't speak a word about it just as Christ never discusses an earlier, additional return where He comes to rapture and take people to heaven???

We are also not taught that there is a great revival to account for all these saints still being here to be killed. In fact, we are taught the opposite. Paul teaches a falling away. Christ questions in Luke 18 if He will find any faith left on earth when He returns. This is an odd statement for Christ to make if He came and took all the Christians.

7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

The Pre-Trib Rapture is alluded to by Jesus and it is taught by Paul.

If you were to read the Parable of the Ten Virgins (Which *coughs* follows the Olivet Discourse End Times discussion), you would see that the point of the Parable was that the Bride Groom was going to come at a time that these virgins did not know about. Only those who are ready and waiting at any moment were invited to the wedding.

Now, what is interesting is that these virgins entered into the wedding and the door was shut.

"The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).

But if you were to look at Luke, it says,

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately" (Luke 12:36).

Why is this important?

Because Matthew describes the bride first entering into the wedding (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture) and Luke describes or hints at the remaining guests who are ready to enter in during the Tribulation when the Lord will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING and open to the door to them immediately when the Lord knocks on the door of their hearts to call them up to be gathered (i.e. the 2nd Catching up or Gathering of the Saints close to the time when Christ is about to return to execute Judgment upon the world).

For in the Olivet Discourse, the disciples ask Jesus where are they being taken.

Jesus said there where the carcase is located is where the eagles be gathered.

This is a hint to the phrase in Revelation and in the Old Testament that says that we (the saints) shall eat the flesh of Kings and the flesh of Captains. Does that mean the saints will eat people? No, this is a metaphorical phrase about how the saints will take victory over their enemies when Christ returns at His second coming when He destroys those evil nations that will come up against Him.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, although they are not exactly alike, there are two "Catching ups" or two "Raptures" of the saints.

Why is this important to understand?

Well, he that is first will be last and he that is last will be first.

Meaning, those who are taken up in the first Rapture (i.e. Pre-Trib Rapture) will receive their physical resurrected bodies last at the End of the Millennium; And those who will be taken up in the 2nd Rapture (i.e. the Gathering of the Elect from the 4 winds close to Christ's 2nd Coming) will receive their physical resurrected bodies first so as to enter into the Millennium. For the Scriptures say that those who were beheaded for Christ during the Tribulation will live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

 

[PlainWord]

The Day of the Lord (The Day of Wrath):
(The Great Tribulation Continued):

Why do you put the Day of the Lord in with the Great Tribulation???? What verse do you have that supports this view? If you study what Jesus places within the GT, you don't see him saying anything about His Wrath. Instead, it is all about deception and a whole lot of killing taking place. The days are shortened specifically for the sake of the Elect. Therefore, the Elect are in jeopardy. The Elect are being killed. The days aren't being shortened for the unbeliever. The False One isn't coming to deceive the unbeliever, He has them already.

So, study what Christ says is happening during the Great Tribulation because the Olivet is the only place that gives the starting and ending points and describes events which occur during the GT.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days....

Now the Tribulation is over. Now comes the Wrath. Here comes the vengeance of the Lord, repaying the wicked for killing all the Saints that they kill during the Tribulation. See here, the Elect are the ones being killed.

Luke 18:

7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

See here, the revenge comes when Christ is revealed, not before.

2 Thes 1:

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Elin]

Are you a Greek scholar...because I am Not..
But here are many translations...translated by those with wide knowledge in greek.

New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
New Living Translation
Jesus replied, "I assure you that when the world is made new and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
English Standard Version
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
New American Standard Bible
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
King James Bible
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jesus said to them, "I assure you: In the Messianic Age,

The Biblical and certain interpretation of the prophetic riddle of Da 2:37-43
states there is only one kingdom or Messianic Age,
set up at the first coming of the Messiah during the last Roman empire,
which lasts forever, and is never destroyed (Da 2:44).
It allows for no future temporal Messianic Age.

All private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles must be in agreement
with Biblical and certain interpretation of the prophetic riddle in Da 2:44, in order to be true.

A second temporal Messianic kingdom of 1000 years, in which the saints judge the 12 tribes
of Israel after the second coming of Christ, is not in agreement with Da 2:44.

Nor do we find mention in certain NT teaching of either
a 1000-yr temporal period after the second coming of Christ at the end of time (Heb 9:27-28),
nor of two Messianic kingdoms.

It is a doctrine of man based in private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which interpretations disagree with certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

International Standard Version
Jesus told them, "I tell all of you with certainty, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the renewed creation, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, governing the twelve tribes of Israel.

Of all those translation...one thing is certain...the regeneration....is WHEN THE SON OF MAN SITS ON HIS GLORIOUS THRONE...
Now when the Son sits on his glorious throne...those who followed him will ALSO sit on twelve thrones..JUDGING/GOVERNING the twelve tribes of Israel...
This period shows The Son still have the authority...those who followed him have been given authority...

This is the period in question....When the Son still possess the authority.

Hebrew 9:27-28 deals with reality that after death...what awaits is judgement...
You are just trying to fit your teaching in this...

No, Eph fits NT teaching into this.

Act 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Now followed that with MAt 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I hope you can see clearly...
Jesus will remain in Heaven..

Certain and unequivocal NT teaching states that Jesus is seated on his throne now,
and we are seated with him in the heavenlies now.
His reign does not start in the future, it started at his ascension.

Then when he comes back on earth..he shall sit on his glorious throne..with the twelve... and the twelve shall judge the 12 tribes of Israel...

And he comes back to earth in conjunction with the rapture, resurrection (1Th 4:16-17),
final judgment (Heb 9:27-28) and
restoration of all things (Ac 3:21) in the regeneration (Mt 19:28)
to the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13) where there is no death (Rev 21:4)
because it is eternity; i.e., the end of time.

The question is how long will the twelve judge the twelve tribes of Israel?

The saints are seated now with Christ in the heavenlies,
and they will participate with Christ in the final judgment of all mankind,
which certain NT teaching locates in conjunction with the rapture,
resurrection and new heavens and new earth,
where there is no death (Rev 21:4) nor decay (Ro 8:2-23), at the end of time.

Certain NT teaching presents no 1000-year temporal period between
Christ's coming, the rapture, the resurrection, the final judgment and
the new heavens and new earth of eternity, all of which it presents
in conjunction with one another.

For someone who insist on certain unequivocal teaching of the NT...
you are quoting Revalation, the book by which is subjected to many private interpretations...

Which interpretation of Rev is in agreement with certain NT teaching,
where the Greek meaning of "regeneration" is "re-creation,"
and the meaning of "restoration" is liberation to its former state of no decay (Ro 8:20-23),
which is the meaning of "new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness" (2Pe 3:13).

Why did Paul said... 1 cor 15:25
1Co 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
For HE MUST reign, TILL????
When is this Till? obviously not Mat 19:28..coz that period is when the Son Sits on his glorious throne...
How long is that period?

Paul also said he is reigning now, and must continue to reign until all enemies are put under his feet,
when he then turns the kingdom of God over to the Father
at the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13) of eternity.

Your apprehension of NT doctrine is deficient.

 

[Elin]

which New heavens are you talking about? Is it before the New heavens of Isa 65 or after it?
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.,

There is only one, which is referred to more than once in Scripture,
the one of 2Pe 2:13, the home of righteousness and no death.

Your deficient apprehension of NT doctrine reveals that your theology drives your hermeneutic,
rather than your hermeneutic driving your theology.

To reconcile your theology to certain NT teaching requires multiplication of events and things
which are the same, resulting in:

--two resurrections - the one NT teaching presents at the coming of Christ and rapture (1Th 4:16-17),
and one 1000 years after the coming of Christ;
--two temporal Messianic kingdoms - the everlasting one set up at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44),
and another at Christ's second coming;
--two bodies of Christ on earth - one in natural bodies, and another in glorified bodies;
--two final judgments - the one NT teaching presents at the second coming,
and another 1000 years later.

None of these bizarre duplications are found in the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.
They are driven by private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which others validly interpret to mean things entirely different, and
which enjoy agreement with certain NT teaching.

The revelation of the Son spoken in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers (Lk 24:27, 44-45) is the plumb line
by which all understanding of Scripture spoken by the prophets of old
is to be understood.

Your theology is not plumb with certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

 

[Elin]

And we are seated with him.

you are seated with him literally?

Do you believe in literal interpretation of Scripture?

so those who followed him mentioned in Matthew 19:28 are
judging now the twelve tribes of Israel?

Those who are following him now are seated now with him in the heavenlies.

At the regeneration, in conjunction with the resurrection, rapture and final judgment,
the saints will judge the "12 tribes of Israel."

so when will he stop reigning? or when all enemies will be put under his feet?

At the end of time, when the last enemy, death, is overcome at the resurrection,
which occurs in conjunction with the rapture, final judgment, new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness and no death.

since there is a period of reign...Matthew 19:28 shows that He is still reigning..so Matthew 19:28 deals while the Son of Man is still reigning...

Yes, he reigns until the last enemy, death, is overcome at the resurrection,
which occurs in conjunction with the rapture, final judgment and regeneration.

The first time he came Yes He bring sword...Do you suggest war in the regeneration?

The regeneration is at the end of time, to the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness
and no death, which is eternity.

You do not need to prove a 1000 years ...you just need to understand that
there is a period wherein the Son of Man shall sit on David's throne (luke 1:32) and those who followed him seated with him judging the twelve tribes of Israel (mat 19:28, Luke 22:30) .

The everlasting kingdom and throne promised to David are fulfilled in the Messiah, not in David.
The everlasting kingdom and throne are Messiah's, not David's.
Messiah is on the throne, and we with him, for all eternity.

You have multiplied things which are the same.

 

[watcher2013]

The Biblical and certain interpretation of the prophetic riddle of Da 2:37-43
states there is only one kingdom or Messianic Age,
set up at the first coming of the Messiah during the last Roman empire,
which lasts forever, and is never destroyed (Da 2:44).
It allows for no future temporal Messianic Age.

All private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles must be in agreement
with Biblical and certain interpretation of the prophetic riddle in Da 2:44, in order to be true.

A second temporal Messianic kingdom of 1000 years, in which the saints judge the 12 tribes
of Israel after the second coming of Christ, is not in agreement with Da 2:44.

Nor do we find mention in certain NT teaching of either
a 1000-yr temporal period after the second coming of Christ at the end of time (Heb 9:27-28),
nor of two Messianic kingdoms.

It is a doctrine of man based in private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which interpretations disagree with certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

Who is saying two kingdoms????

This is where you are mistaken...

It is the same kingdom that the Son will handover to the Father...
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

No, Eph fits NT teaching into this

No...you have interpreted it to fit your teaching....

Certain

and unequivocal NT teaching states that Jesus is seated on his throne now,

Is it David's throne (Luke 1:32)?

and we are seated with him in the heavenlies now.

I am sitting on my chair...placed on earth...(spiritual or physical Heaven/heavenly is not earth)

His reign does not start in the future, it started at his ascension.

The 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 did not end nor it break in pieces when Jesus ascends to heaven.

And he comes back to earth in conjunction with the rapture, resurrection (1Th 4:16-17)

true

final judgment (Heb 9:27-28) and

How long is this judgement will take place?

restoration of all things (Ac 3:21) in the regeneration (Mt 19:28)

where those who followed him shall sit on their thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel

to the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13)

Isa 65:17

where there is no death (Rev 21:4)

To those who have been changed from mortal to immortal.

because it is eternity; i.e., the end of time.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The saints are seated now with Christ in the heavenlies,
and they will participate with Christ in the final judgment of all mankind,
which certain NT teaching locates in conjunction with the rapture,
resurrection and new heavens and new earth,
where there is no death (Rev 21:4) nor decay (Ro 8:2-23), at the end of time.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

as far as Paul is concern judgement will be held in his kingdom....
2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Certain NT teaching presents no 1000-year temporal period between
Christ's coming, the rapture, the resurrection, the final judgment and
the new heavens and new earth of eternity, all of which it presents
in conjunction with one another.

Which interpretation of Rev is in agreement with certain NT teaching,
where the Greek meaning of "regeneration" is "re-creation,"
and the meaning of "restoration" is liberation to its former state of no decay (Ro 8:20-23),
which is the meaning of "new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness" (2Pe 3:13).


Paul also said he is reigning now, and must continue to reign until all enemies are put under his feet,
when he then turns the kingdom of God over to the Father
at the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13) of eternity.

Your apprehension of NT doctrine is deficient.

the NT allows for a period of time where the Son shall reign...(for he MUST REIGN..TILL)
Matthew 19:28, luke 22:30 shows that the Son continue to reign in the regeneration and those who followed him shall judge the twelve tribes...
the NT...shows that the Son shall delivered the kingdom to the Father...
the NT shows that the end will come when the Son have put down all rule and authority...(Mat 19:28 and luke 22:30 shows the Son still have the power and authority)
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[watcher2013]

There is only one, which is referred to more than once in Scripture,
the one of 2Pe 2:13, the home of righteousness and no death.

Is it the same as Isa 65:17?

Your deficient apprehension of NT doctrine reveals that your theology drives your hermeneutic,
rather than your hermeneutic driving your theology.

what can I say...thank you???

To reconcile your theology to certain NT teaching requires multiplication of events and things
which are the same, resulting in:

--two resurrections - the one NT teaching presents at the coming of Christ and rapture (1Th 4:16-17),
and one 1000 years after the coming of Christ;

two resurrection - The resurrection of the just (luke 14:14, john 5:29, 1 cor 15: 51-52)and the resurrection of the damned (dan 12:2, John 5:29)

--two temporal Messianic kingdoms - the everlasting one set up at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44),
and another at Christ's second coming;

One kingdom...The Son shall delivered the same kingdom to the Father after he has put down all rule power and authority ( 1 cor 15:24)

--two bodies of Christ on earth - one in natural bodies, and another in glorified bodies;

before Jesus ascends to heaven he's body was changed and he will come back and we will be like him.

--two final judgments - the one NT teaching presents at the second coming,
and another 1000 years later.

Rewards to those who believed and Judgement to those who are ungodly... For how long the judgment will take... as long as it takes to judge all those who are dead from the creation of the world after He comes.

None

of these bizarre duplications are found in the certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT.
They are driven by private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which others validly interpret to mean things entirely different, and
which enjoy agreement with certain NT teaching.

Its there...you just misinterpret it...

The revelation of the Son spoken in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers (Lk 24:27, 44-45) is the plumb line
by which all understanding of Scripture spoken by the prophets of old
is to be understood.

Your theology is not plumb with certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

again..what can I say...Thank you????

 

[Atwood]

When the Rapture?

James says the Judge is at the doors, and that about 2000 years ago.

So how about:

In one minute from now, the beautiful trumpet music will sound.
We will see graves opening & saints popping out & up.
Then we shall see His beautiful face, the hands, feet, & side with beautiful scars.
We hear this all powerful, yet loving voice:

Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For, lo, the winter is past;
The rain is over and gone;
The flowers appear on the earth;
The time of the singing of birds is come,
And the voice of the turtle-dove is heard in our land;
The fig-tree ripeneth her green figs,
And the vines are in blossom;
They give forth their fragrance.
Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.


Then this tractor beam yanks us up.
There is this meeting in the air.
Each hears like,
"Your apartment number is #77715079 in the Father's House."
Everything is prepared there for your delight.
Away we go!

When the Rapture? --

Oh, let's go in about 1 minute, if not sooner.

 

[watcher2013]

Do you believe in literal interpretation of Scripture?

the scriptures contains direct or literal application..(from creation to revelation) unless you want to believe that creation is symbolic...
and it also contains figurative speech...and parables...

Those who are following him now are seated now with him in the heavenlies.

can you please give your NT teaching on this.

are they also drinking in the heaven?( luke 22:18, luke 22:30)

At the regeneration, in conjunction with the resurrection, rapture and final judgment,
the saints will judge the "12 tribes of Israel."


At the end of time, when the last enemy, death, is overcome at the resurrection,
which occurs in conjunction with the rapture, final judgment, new heavens and new earth,
the home of righteousness and no death.

Paul said...For the dead shall rise first....because we are not to precede those who are dead.

what is the period of time between the resurrection and the catching away?

Yes, he reigns until the last enemy, death, is overcome at the resurrection,
which occurs in conjunction with the rapture, final judgment and regeneration.

so after resurrection there will be no death...(the dead in Christ shall rise first)
what happens to those who were not changed...to the unrighteous...there would be death after the resurrection... not total victory...

The regeneration is at the end of time, to the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness
and no death, which is eternity.

The regeneration is when the Son sit on his glorious throne...

The everlasting kingdom and throne promised to David are fulfilled in the Messiah, not in David.
The everlasting kingdom and throne are Messiah's, not David's.
Messiah is on the throne, and we with him, for all eternity.

You have multiplied things which are the same.

that is your private and uncertain interpretation....
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Is our Lord's name Jesus?
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Is he the Son of the highest?
Is he on the throne of david?
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Does He reign over the house of Jacob?

 

[Elin]

No, Eph fits NT teaching into this

No...you have interpreted it to fit your teaching....

Eph is clear and unequivocal, requiring no explanation, only belief.
You either believe it, or you don't.

the NT allows for a period of time where the Son shall reign...(for he MUST REIGN..TILL)

Previously addressed.

 

[Elin]

Your deficient apprehension of NT doctrine reveals that your theology drives your hermeneutic,
rather than your hermeneutic driving your theology.

what can I say...thank you???

Case in point:

Those who are following him now are seated now with him in the heavenlies.
can you please give your NT teaching on this.

See Eph 2:6, 1:20.

You do not have a NT understanding of "heavenlies" (heavenly realms) where
in the exaltation of Christ and in the Christian's union with the exalted Christ,
issues are involved that pertain to the divine realm and that are worked out
in and from that realm:
1) God's eternal eschatological purpose (3:11),
2) the titanic conflict between God and the powerful spiritual forces arrayed against him which come into focus
in the history of redemption (1:3),
3) where in union with the exalted Christ, Christians have already been made beneficiaries of every spiritual blessing
that belongs to and comes from the heavenly realm (as in Mt 19:28, etc.).

The purpose of Christ's exaltation to the heavenly realm, and his elevation over all other powers and titles
is for his rule over them, for the sake of the church (1:20-22).
Those who have been made alive with Christ share in Christ's exaltation and enthronement in heaven (2:6).
Therefore, by the gathering of Gentiles and Jews into one body of Christ (the church),
God triumphantly displays his manifold wisdom to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (3:11).
As a result, the spiritual struggle of the church here and now is not so much against flesh and blood as against
the great spiritual forces that war against God in heaven (6:12).

Note that God's manifold wisdom is displayed in the church, not in some temporal kingdom after the second
coming of Christ.

two general resurrections,
two temporal kingdoms (contrary to Da 2:44),
two bodies of Christ on earth in time (one natural and one glorified),
two final judgments
are nowhere stated in certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

Its there...you just misinterpret it...

Please show it clearly stated in NT teaching.

 

[Elin]

what is the period of time between the resurrection and the catching away?

Paul presents the rapture as immediately following the resurrection.

so after resurrection there will be no death...

There will be no death in the new heavens and new earth.

(the dead in Christ shall rise first)

Those who are alive when Jesus comes will not be raptured until the dead saints rise first, so that no saint misses the rapture.

what happens to those who were not changed...to the unrighteous..

Jesus said they will rise to be condemned, while the saints will rise to live.

there would be death after the resurrection... not total victory...

So you do not believe the NT?

The regeneration is when the Son sit on his glorious throne...

Yes, but he doesn't wait until then, he is also sitting on it now.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, you have made a BIG assumption on the ruling of Christ and the Apostles, being NOW; I do not believe your assumption can hold water. Your reading into Acts 1:6 3:23 Mt. 19:28 Rom.8:10-23 a very unnatural meaning, it is a
FORCED meaning, braking the good rule of allowing a good, natural, honest flow of the narratives, stories. You destroy the words of Rev. especial, Rev.20:1-7. "one thousand years". SHAME,on you. SORRY, Still, Love ya, Hoffco God Bless!

 

[Atwood]

Try to Stay in Your Chair!

We shall behold Him!

Bill & Gloria Gaither - We Shall Behold Him [Live] - YouTube

This is our blessed hope!

 

[Ukorin]

Elin, you have made a BIG assumption on the ruling of Christ and the Apostles, being NOW; I do not believe your assumption can hold water. Your reading into Acts 1:6 3:23 Mt. 19:28 Rom.8:10-23 a very unnatural meaning, it is a
FORCED meaning, braking the good rule of allowing a good, natural, honest flow of the narratives, stories. You destroy the words of Rev. especial, Rev.20:1-7. "one thousand years". SHAME,on you. SORRY, Still, Love ya, Hoffco God Bless!

Christ is surely enthroned at the right hand of the Father. His rule is spiritual, as is His Kingdom.
At His Return, that spiritual reign becomes manifest in the physical realm as well.

Satan still has the throne here on earth, but not for long. The victory is already won.