When does the rapture occur?

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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...? :confused:

The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?

:rolleyes:

:)
So, just to be straight on this, you're saying there will be no public works during the time of Antichrist, no street widening? Haven't the time to go into this now, feeling a bit peaked and need to make some allegorical tea, in a symbolic cup, to not drink.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Sorry, my bad on two counts:

1. I shouldn't have insinuated you were 'nuts'. That was not nice.

2. I made the mistake of not specifying that I was referring to present day Saints like you and I who will not incur the wrath of the Tribulation.

You see, those who miss the boat will still be able to repent but must endure the wrath of the Tribulation. That is the context of your Rev. 13:7. I think many would agree that you should not have clipped off the "...it was given unto him" when speaking about Saints being overcome by Satan. That would have shed a differently colored light on the matter, don't you think? That would have put the big Ka'baash on your big bold red letter statement about it not being God's wrath.
The Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath, it is SATAN'S wrath. God's wrath is in response to Satan's wrath and comes after the Tribulation of Saints is over. The concept of a "regular" saint and a "tribulation saint" is not found and is not taught. Such an idea only exists because of the misconception of a pre-Tribulation rapture. But I do appreciate the apology.

The Bible is very clear. Satan is cast to earth having great wrath. Satan's wrath is aimed at Israel and their offspring (the Church). God must intervene and stop it or the very ELECT will be killed. Obviously God is not doing something that He must stop. Jesus Himself teaches us this. Paul goes on to tell us in 2 Thes 1 that God repays with tribulation those who have been persecuting us. Paul makes clear that this doesn't happen until the Lord is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.

Please study the use of the word "tribulation(s)" in the Bible. It appears 31 times. In 30 of those times it deals with persecution and killing of the faithful by the wicked. Therefore the Great Tribulation is tribulation on steroids. Have you seen what ISIS has been doing in beheading Christians? Well, we are still here. I bet if you asked the Christians in the region if they feel like they are in the Great Tribulation you would get an affirmative answer.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
This is wrong, God pours out His wrath and it is against satan, you see angels pouring out the bowls and not satan
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Please explain the parts highlighted in red:


Revelation 11:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days,
clothed in sackcloth. [SUP]4[/SUP] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5[/SUP] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6[/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7[/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8[/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9[/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10[/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11[/SUP] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12[/SUP] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


So --- are you saying:

Israel and the Church are going to kill their enemies with fire...?

Israel and the Church are going to "smite the earth with all plagues"...?

The beast is going to kill Israel and the Church...? :confused:

The whole world will see the dead bodies of Israel and the Church lie in the street, and not allow them to be buried...?

:rolleyes:

:)
It is likely spiritual, all of it. The world rejoices when Israel and the church appear defeated. Being dead in the streets and not buying bodies is a spiritual way of saying that the world will continue to rejoice and celebrate long after our defeat (3.5 years).

Sodom and Egypt is not Jerusalem. Our Lord was killed in Jerusalem so why not just say Jerusalem if that was the intention? Spiritually Sodom and Egypt are spiritual conditions not places. Out of time. Will respond more later....
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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This is wrong, God pours out His wrath and it is against satan, you see angels pouring out the bowls and not satan
Yes, AFTER the Tribulation is over. Then God pours out the bowls.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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We know Satan comes to earth having great wrath. We know he attacks and overcomes Saints. Why do some of you think this happens after the rapture? After the rapture there would be no saints left to overcome. There is no huge revival after the rapture. Paul makes this very clear. There is a falling away before the Man of Sin appears.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Yes, AFTER the Tribulation is over. Then God pours out the bowls.
Read it again and then another time and after that read it some more. The time of Jacobs trouble is Gods wrath, Satan has be trying his wrath since eve. The only thing holding him back is the church and after the church is gone, it's hell on wheels and then God will destroy it because His children are out of the way.
 
P

popeye

Guest
Read it again and then another time and after that read it some more. The time of Jacobs trouble is Gods wrath, Satan has be trying his wrath since eve. The only thing holding him back is the church and after the church is gone, it's hell on wheels and then God will destroy it because His children are out of the way.
yep
good post
 
Oct 15, 2014
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[video=youtube_share;nH-AfNF0UvI]http://youtu.be/nH-AfNF0UvI[/video]
 
G

GaryA

Guest
So, just to be straight on this, you're saying there will be no public works during the time of Antichrist, no street widening?
"No - the road to destruction is wide enough already..." ;) ( The name of the street is 'Broadway'. )

:)
 
Nov 3, 2014
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"The Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath, it is SATAN'S wrath."

Really?

Explain this [Revelation 6:12-17; 17:16-18]

Your idea has no answer

Post tribulation thinking is flawed for many reasons and I can show them all [I may start a thread for the purpose]

But the point is that your view may be detrimental to you .... do you know why?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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Read it again and then another time and after that read it some more. The time of Jacobs trouble is Gods wrath, Satan has be trying his wrath since eve. The only thing holding him back is the church and after the church is gone, it's hell on wheels and then God will destroy it because His children are out of the way.
I've read it a million times and each time it reads the same.

Matthew 24 give us the order of events. Jesus did not stutter nor did he leave anything out. Here's the sequence:

The Temple is destroyed
The Beginning of Sorrows
The Daily Sacrifices are taken away
The Abomination of Desolation is set up
Satan is cast to earth
The Great Tribulation begins
Saints are overcome
Days are shortened for Elect's (Remnant) Sake
Christ returns
The Elect are Gathered
Divine Wrath poured out
 
G

GaryA

Guest
"The Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath, it is SATAN'S wrath."

Really?

Explain this [Revelation 6:12-17; 17:16-18]

Your idea has no answer

Post tribulation thinking is flawed for many reasons and I can show them all [I may start a thread for the purpose]
{ "Please do - it should be interesting..." :D }

But the point is that your view may be detrimental to you .... do you know why?
{ "Do you understand that the pre-trib rapture, double-coming-of-Christ view is detrimental to the Christian who believes it? -- do you know why?" }
Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



This is pre-'Wrath of God', and is post-tribulation. What makes you think it is pre-tribulation?

( It is not talking about the Tribulation Period itself. )


Revelation 17:

[SUP]16[/SUP] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [SUP]17[/SUP] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. [SUP]18[/SUP] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.



This is not talking about the Wrath of God.



I find that most Christians seem to not understand the difference between the Tribulation Period and the Wrath of God. They seem to think that any and all "trouble-type prophetic-imagery" in Revelation is both 'Tribulation Period' and 'Wrath of God'; however, this is simply not true. A careful study of the scriptures will yield a different conclusion.

It seems that most Christians have been taught erroneous doctrine concerning the End Times Scenario. And, it seems that - built into the "learning" of that erroneous doctrine - is a kind of pride that "resists at all costs" looking deeper into the scriptures to find the real truth about the End Times Scenario. ( This is truly sad. )

I believe that there is a space of time ( which is at least 3.5 years in length ) between the end of the Tribulation Period and the return of Christ, and that it is during this time that [ the first six of ] the 'Trumpet' events ( Revelation 8:7 - 9:21 ) occur. ( Please see the 'Order of Events' link in my signature. )

I also believe that, by the end of the Tribulation Period, most Christians on the earth will have been beheaded for not worshiping the beast.

( Technically, it will not be for "not taking the mark of the beast"; most Christians will be killed [ first ] for not worshiping the beast - then, all that remain will have to accept the mark. I believe that a close examination of the scriptures bears this out. According to my reading / understanding of Revelation 13:15-16, most Christians will not have to worry about having to face "taking the mark" because they will be killed for not worshiping the beast before the mark is forced onto the population. And, it would actually fit the mentality of those who wish to administer the mark onto the population of the earth -- there would be a greater cost and effort to "mark" the whole population - and then kill a great number of them. I am thinking that they would probably want to exterminate those who will not "play along" - i.e., worship the beast - before administering the mark... )

I did not arrive at this conclusion because it was what I wanted or thought the End Times Scenario should be.

Until a person decides that they are truly more interested in knowing the actual truth concerning the End Times Scenario - and are willing to "do the hard work" to arrive at that truth - they will be "stuck" in what they were taught...

Until a person is able to "suspend" all that they have been taught - and consider the scriptures - with the right 'attitude' towards the knowledge of the truth - they will not attain unto what the scriptures actually say about the End Time Scenario.



Folks on CC cannot even come to any agreement with what the word 'rapture' actually means... :rolleyes: :p

If we cannot even accomplish this --- the rest is moot... :(



:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



This is pre-'Wrath of God', and is post-tribulation.
Verses 12-14 are 'pre-Wrath' in occurrence; verses 15-17 are stated in the sense of "the immediate but coming wrath" ( has not actually occurred yet, but is about to begin to occur ).

:)
 
Nov 3, 2014
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"This is pre-'Wrath of God', and is post-tribulation. What makes you think it is pre-tribulation?"


I know that it is .... all of the following judgments related to His hour of trial begin in chapter 8 thru 19 just after the 144000 are sealed on the earth and the church is seen in heaven

These judgments are not coming from Satan as the post tribulation thinker tells ..... they are all coming from the Lord to punish an unbelieving world

And you say no, but I have to say that you are flat wrong ..... even Satan's behavior is instigated by the Lord


Revelation
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


The Lord's wrath and judgment upon the earth will rage for 2550 days .... and then He will appear at the end of the same

The post tribulation idea is bogus and flawed in many ways

It is the Lord who will judge ..... not Satan .... this one is nothing but the Lord's dupe in the process
 
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GaryA

Guest
Matthew 24:

[SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


I believe that - what "shortens the days" - is not the return of Christ; but rather, the "arrival on the scene" of the Two Witnesses.

I believe that [ the first six of ] the Trumpet Events are the direct result of the "proclamations" of the Two Witnesses.

I believe that [ the first six of ] the Trumpet Events will occur over a time span of [ at least ] 3.5 years.

I believe that the return of Christ will occur shortly after the raising of the Two Witnesses.

( Please see the 'Order of Events' link in my signature. )

:)
 
G

GaryA

Guest
I believe that the Seven Vials are the Wrath of God - no more and no less.

EDIT: I am speaking in 'event' terms.

:)
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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"The Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath, it is SATAN'S wrath."

Really?

Explain this [Revelation 6:12-17; 17:16-18]

Your idea has no answer

Post tribulation thinking is flawed for many reasons and I can show them all [I may start a thread for the purpose]

But the point is that your view may be detrimental to you .... do you know why?
Revelation 12 makes clear the sequence. Satan is cast to earth (after Michael defeats him) after Christ returns to heaven following His crucifixion and after Israel was scattered amongst the nations for 1,260 years (prophetic days). This scattering ended in 1948 when Israel became a nation which was exactly 1,260 years from the time the Abomination of Desolation was set up on the Temple Mount in AD 688 to 1948. Satan has been attacking Israel ever since but thus far has not been able to defeat her even with overwhelming force. Frustrated, Satan turns his attention to the church...

We are told in Rev 12:12 that Satan comes to earth "having great wrath" because his time is short. Satan makes war with the offspring of the Woman (the Church). We are told in Rev 13:7 again that Satan wages war with the Saints and overcomes them. Daniel 100% confirm this in Dan 7:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


Daniel makes clear that this "war" AKA persecution, AKA Tribulation against the saints continues until "the Ancient of Days (GOD) comes and a judgment was made in favor of the saints and then the saints possess the Kingdom. We are told repeatedly that God's wrath is in response to Satan's persecution of believers. Paul teaches this in 2 Thes 1. John affirms it in Rev 18:6.

Since Satan clearly comes "having great wrath" and overcomes the Saints this cannot be God's wrath. We know that when Christ returns, he defeats Satan and chains him for 1,000 years. So, Satan's Wrath cannot be located after the return of Christ.

If the Tribulation is God's wrath which ends with the Second Coming of the Lord (as you believe) where do you locate Satan's wrath?????

If Satan's wrath is before the Tribulation (which is the only place you can put it since you refuse to believe it comes during the Tribulation) that would mean Satan persecutes and kills pre-Rapture Saints. If Satan slaughters pre-rapture Saints, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the Rapture which you believe is designed to spare the Church?

If God's wrath is the Tribulation then that means the AntiChrist was sent from God instead of Satan. Do you have any idea how messed up that is?

As for Rev 6, the Great Tribulation is contained 100% in this passage.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Seals 1-3 represent the rise of Islam and the "Beginning of Sorrows" The 4th seal is the Great Tribulation. Rev 13 which provides more detail to Rev 6:7-8. ISLAM is the HARLOT (False Religion). Babylon is MECCA (Mecca means "Mother"). The Trumpets provide further detail of the rise of Islam and it's fall at Armageddon (Trumpet 6). The Bowls are God's wrath. They are directed specifically at the BEAST and the Harlot as we are told in Rev 16.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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1 John 3:12

not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

It is clear - SATAN is a murderer. The moment Satan can cause the death of an unbeliever he owns his soul. Satan is also a liar and the father of them. Satan has convinced the ISLAMIC world that they go to heaven and receive 72 virgins if they die a martyr to their false religion. Satan does not care if the Muslims kill themselves along with Jews and Christians. The more dead, the merrier for Satan.

Revelation is largely about the rise of Islam and the reign of terror Islam will have over the earth. Islamic extremists want to kill every Jew and Christian that they can. But they also hate each other. The Sunnis hate the Shia. The Kings of the North will attack Saudi Arabia and Egypt and destroy MECCA. This is taught everywhere from Jeremiah to Daniel to Revelation. The Saudis and Egyptians are hated by the extreme element of the Islamic world because of their secularism and dealing with the West who they view as the Great Satan. Do not doubt me on this!!

When ISIS gets strong enough they will align with IRAN who also hates the Saudis as an oil competitor and they will align with Turkey (from where the Man of Sin will arise) and they will destroy most of Saudi Arabia, Mecca for sure and they will burn her oil causing so much black smoke that literally 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars will be darkened.

The below is a piece from an article from Nov 7 from 12 Tribe, an Israeli media outlet.

Regarding Saudi Arabia, al-Baghdadi said the Saudi leaders were the "head of the snake," and urged Islamic State supporters to attack them and the Shiites in the kingdom. "O sons of al-Haramayn (Saudi Arabia)...the snake's head and the stronghold of the disease are there...draw your swords and divorce life, because there should be no security for the Saloul," Baghdadi said, using a derogatory term to refer to the leadership of Saudi Arabia. The Islamic State leader urged Arab countries to carry out attacks against Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the Sinai Peninsula. Al-Baghdadi added that the US will soon have to bring in ground troops to fight the Islamic State. "Oh soldiers of the Islamic State...erupt volcanoes of jihad everywhere. Light the earth with fire against all dictators," Baghdadi said. According to al-Baghdadi, the Islamic Caliphate that the Islamic State is attempting to create has already spread to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya and Algeria.
 
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