Where did the idea that the soul is immortal originate?

Shiloah · Jul 10, 2013

What I can't understand is how it's continually been demonstrated here that you only choose God because either you want the reward or you fear eternal torment? When does it ever become more than that for you? When does it ever become about loving our God and wanting to give Him all the glory by living our lives for Him because He is who He is-- because He deserves it-- and because He's phenomenal beyond comprehension? I guess if you never ever get past "am I going to lose my salvation over this; and hence, end up in eternal torment? Because that's all I care about! And no one in this world will ever come to Christ unless they're threatened with never-ending horrific punishment. You couldn't possibly be interested otherwise, because it's only about reward or avoiding the ghastly consequences with you. As far as I'm concerned, with that kind of attitude, you never graduate from milk to meat. In fact, you never understood the basics to begin with. Hey! Would you follow Christ into hell if that was your only reward? Is He worth that much to you? Do you seek reward or Jesus Christ? It's pretty clear you seek reward and that's it, or oh my gosh, to avoid that horrible never-ending punishment you believe in. Gotta make sure we don't go THERE. Clearly, that's all salvation means to you.

I think it's so interesting that people that push this doctrine talk about free will and eternal punishment in the same breath. Oh, you say people have been given the right to choose to believe or not, but boy oh boy, God's gonna punish you in a never-ending conscious torment if you choose wrong! Hey, that's quite the free will gift there. Can't you see how perverted that kind of thinking is? Clearly, you cannot.

You say no one is convinced of this argument? I was absolutely convinced by this argument. I turned entirely away from what I had brought up to believe. I also personally know quite a few people that think differently on this topic who changed their beliefs after all these scriptures shown to you were shown to them. It didn't change their love for God other than it deepened it! And they weren't expecting to go to hell in the first place. They were already Christians. The eternal torment theory drives people away from God, not towards Him, because it contradicts the claim that He is a just and loving God. And the immortal soul concept goes hand in hand with the eternal torture chamber concept. It's bizarre you hold onto this so hard in spite of the wealth scriptures shown to you that disprove it if you'd just open your eyes. In my opinion, it's the most destructive doctrine in the mainstream Christian church message today. So if it's a false doctrine, and it drives people away from God rather than towards Him because it contradicts God's just and loving nature, then it comes straight out of the mouth the enemy.

So who do you serve with this false belief? The enemy.

Michael50 · Jul 11, 2013

DiscipleDave said:

True, this is found in Scriptures

Nowhere in Scriptures, OLD or NEW. this belief is not based on Scriptures, nor do any Scriptures even imply that this is the case.

This is Scriptural for Jesus said :

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

So Jesus just got done telling us, He is going to go to Heaven and prepare a city for us, and that He will come again and receive us up into the clouds with Him. It only make since that if Jesus is going to Heaven to prepare a place for us, that when He Returns, that place will be with Him.

Again, nowhere can this information be found in all of Scriptures. There are many prophesies in the Old Testament however that confirms that the New City will be on Earth. New Testament prophesies as well teach this.

The entire Chapter of Revelation 21 describes the New City Jerusalem, pay particular attention to the last of that chapter, and where this New City is at: Kings of the Earth shall bring their glory into it vs. 24. The SAVED shall walk in the New City Jerusalem vs. 24. Notice that in verse 27 sinners will not be allowed in it. This verse alone indicates many things, ONE, sinners are not all killed at the Rapture, and two that sinners are still present during a time the New City Jerusalem is here on the Earth.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23And the city (New City Jerusalem) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (Those who were raptured up into the sky when He appeared to the Earth): and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (If the New City Jerusalem was indeed in Heaven then there would be no need to make this last statement that sinners would not be able to enter into the city. So because it was stated, it is clear that sinners will be present during this time.)

We do not judge wicked humans and wicked angels, until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, the Great White Throne Judgement. This is when we will help judge the wicked and reveal to them why they are not going to go to Heaven, Namely because they failed to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Those who do not LOVE OTHERS are not going to be a part of His Kingdom.

It is True that the Holy City will come out of from Heaven, and the Father will be in it, also Jesus will be in it, and it is True that it will land over where Mount Olives is now. But where is it written anywhere in Scriptures, that Jesus will come to the Earth, take His people to Heaven, only to return again a third time?

This is Scriptural and is the Truth

This also is True and is found in Scriptures

There is NO Scriptures that teach Jesus Christ coming back a third time, that is not Scriptural. It is written at the end of the 1,000 years satan and all his followers will be cast into Hell, they will not be alive. Yet we clearly have Scriptures that plainly teach, concerning this Holy City, that the evil people are still here, they have been killed or Judged or taken away or cast into Hell. These wicked people will not be allowed in the New City Jerusalem. If the Holy City comes down AFTER the thousand year reign, there will be no evil people left after the thousand year reign.

That is great, far too many people do not give Scriptures to back up their belief, and you are now asking me to ask questions and you will give Scriptures to support what you are saying. Here then are my questions.

1) Where does it teach that when Jesus comes to the Earth and raptures the Church, that He goes back to Heaven?
2) Where does it teach we will spend a thousand years IN HEAVEN?
3) Where does it teach that we judge the wicked FROM HEAVEN?
4) Where does it teach that AFTER the thousand years the New City will then come down from Heaven?
5) And finally where does it teach that Jesus comes to the Earth a Third time?

i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and i have not found any of these things to be Scriptural. i could be wrong of course, that is why i am more than willing to hear your Scriptural support of what you believe.

Brother, there are far too many Scriptures for me to reveal to you, that supports what i teach. All of the Major prophets, and some of the minor ones all teach what i am saying. Daniel in his vision, teaches that Jesus will come back and set up His Kingdom on the Earth. and all nations shall worship and bow down to Him ( Dan 2:41+) Isiah describes the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth. Psalms 72 describes a time where Jesus reigns on the Earth. Micah 4:1-3 describes how Jesus will rule over the people of the Earth. Like i said far too many Scriptures teach that Jesus will rule on the Earth, not from Heaven. Other verses which support that are Ezek 47:1-12, Daniel 7:13-14, Rev 11:15 that says the Kingdoms of this world becomes Christs Kingdom. Isiah 2, Zech 14 particularly vs 4, Isiah 9:6-7, and one i really like is a description from Isiah concerning the 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth in Chapter 66: 17-25 where the wolf and the lamb eat together, Age is restored to pre-flood days. and verse 23 mentions their offspring, so we are not talking about the Saints who will be in the Holy City but talking about the inhabitant of the Earth, who we, the saints and Jesus Christ will reign over for a thousand years.
Now all this that i am teaching i can show you Scriptures that support it, ask me questions even as i have asked you. i am telling you the Truth, what God has revealed to me, will indeed happen exactly as i said it will, and Scriptures support it.

Look forward to you showing me Scriptures to the 5 questions above. Please do not feel bad when you can't find them, they simply are not there.

Love you Brother,

^i^

Greetings!!!

Wow,, you gave me alot of work.... Hey,, If you don't mind,, can we take one item at a time? That way neither us will get bogged down with details of several different events. Sound reasonable? I like your questions. Each one is legitimate. I look forward to studying these Glorious Events that are about to come.

1. Where does it teach that when Jesus comes to Earth and raptures the Church, that He goes back to Heaven?

Answer: A couple scriptures jump out at me concerning this question. The first comes from John 13:33

"Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going you cannot come,' so now I say to you."

That scripture doesn't tell me much,, but,, if you jump ahead to John 13:36 we read this:

Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are you going?." Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward."

So,, I believe that scripture leads me to believe that I will be able to follow Jesus back to Heaven once He returns and the Saints meet Him in the air.

If you keep reading chapter 14:2 speaks of the Mansion Jesus is preparing of which you already alluded to in your post. I believe that mansion is now residing in Heaven and awaits our arrival.

If my answer suffices,, we shall move on to question number 2. If not, then we shall delve further..

Thanks for the post. I like your questions. They show a thinking mind.

DiscipleDave · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

But you are assuming it is Heaven, it does not say Heaven. Now you can believe that you will go to Heaven after the Rapture, but it is only that your belief, it is not backed up by Scriptures.

Is it not written that Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us? i hope we agree on that, yes? So we know that Jesus taught He is going to prepare the New City, that is where He is going. In John 13:36 you are assuming it is referring to Heaven, you could equally assume it is referring to the New City Jerusalem. Jesus left to go build the city, and we could not follow Him there at that time (not yet built) but we well follow Him to the New City when He Returns. For example the same verse said as you beleive it to mean:

Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are you going?." Jesus answered him, "Heaven I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me to Heaven afterward."

Same thing could be said this way as well:

Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are you going?." Jesus answered him, "Holy City I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me to the Holy City afterward."

Do you see what i mean, Both could be correct. There are many other things we could put in there as well. But here is the Truth, that Scripture does NOT say Heaven, just as that Scripture does NOT say Holy City. Therefore that verse can't be used as support for a belief that we go to Heaven or to the Holy City.
What i am saying is you can't use that particular verse as support for you belief that we go to Heaven after Jesus Raptures the Church, it does not say that, nor even imply that. It merely says that where He is going we can't go right now, but one day will get to go.
Let us assume for a moment that the verse is indeed referring to Heaven. Even then it does not teach that that will occur at the time of the Rapture. That could also apply to the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ as well, we will then go to Heaven as well. So then it brings us back to the same question, what Scriptural support suggest we go to Heaven at the time of the Rapture, this is a common belief, yet is NOT what Scriptures teach, it is indeed what most people have been taught, but is NOT what Scriptures teach. So then i guess we are still on the same question, because i hope you see the verses you give does not support going to Heaven at the time of the rapture.

So i guess if we are going to discuss this one question, then we are still on it

1. Where does it teach that when Jesus comes to Earth and raptures the Church, that He goes back to Heaven?

The verses you give teach at the time of Jesus ascension we could not follow Him, but one day in the future we will follow Him. This says nothing about the Rapture nor Heaven. In order to have Scriptural support for the belief that Jesus will take us to Heaven at the time of the Rapture, you need to show verse that indicate the Rapture and going to Heaven. There are many Scriptures that a person can INTERPRET to mean something that will support their own belief. But we are yet at a stand still, for as of now, there is no support for the belief that we go to Heaven at the time of the Rapture.'
We are Raptured and indeed will follow Jesus to the New City Jerusalem, where we will live, and out of that Holy City we will reign, with Christ over the nations of the World at that time. That is backed up by Scriptures.

Maybe it would be best to correspond via email?

Michael50 said:

Do you think your answer suffices? Do you think the Scriptures you gave support that at the Rapture we are taken to Heaven?
Or are we still on question 1)?

^i^

fredjames · Jul 11, 2013

Peace be with you, as it is written, it only takes 2 or 3 believer witnesses to justify their near death experience but given a second chance to go back to earth to warn other Christian and non-Christian, Heaven in a short visit is very real and hell in a longer disturbing visit is very real too.
Listening to their testimony about hell and sadly the people suffering there are conscious of who they are and what they have done and they are day and night tormented for that, forever and ever.
I see a similarity with the parable of JESUS in the Gospel, Lazarus and the Rich Man. The rich man's confession to Abraham show, he is the same conscious person, even remembering Lazarus who he used to notice picking food from his garbage bin and shut a blind eye towards Lazarus's poverty. Also he remembers his brothers whom he long to warn and etc.
Due to these revelations, i believe it is true that the soul is immortal.
Also JESUS said this in the Gospel; "Why fear man who can destroy only your body, rather fear GOD who can destroy your body and your soul." (Destroyed - forever forgotten destined to burning in hell.)
I only can share with believers what i have witnessed in accordance to the Holy Scripture.
English Oxford Dictionary say;
Soul - 1. person's spiritual or immortal element
2. mental, moral or emotional nature
3. personification
4. person

Elin · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

Your misunderstanding of the OT sets the Scriptures against themselves.
For God states specifically that Ezekiel is to give the message to the King of Tyre (Eze 28:2, 12).
Therefore, the passage must be understood in this context,
where God uses imagery (as is often found in the prophets) of creation and the fall to picture the career of the King of Tyre.

God depicts the proud king with the imagery of the first man created full of wisdom and beauty (vv. 12-13),
a fully clothed priest (v.13),
a cherubim like the one who guarded the entrance to Eden after the fall (vv.14, 16),
blameless, until he sinned, as was Adam (v.15),
expelled from the heavenly garden as was Satan (v. 17).

This understanding is in agreement with God's specific statement that he is speaking to the King of Tyre,
as well as in agreement with the NT, which shows immortality of all spirits.

It does not set the Scriptures against themselves, as you do.

Elin · Jul 11, 2013

OOPS! Got the order of the quotes wrong in post immediately above.
Corrected following.

Well, I don't actually need to look at the original languages here, for they are not your problem.
Your problem is simply misunderstanding.

Elin said:

Your misunderstanding of the OT sets the Scriptures against themselves.
For God states specifically that Ezekiel is to give the message to the King of Tyre (Eze 28:2, 12).
Therefore, the passage must be understood in this context,
where God uses imagery (as is often found in the prophets) of creation and the fall to picture the career of the King of Tyre.

God depicts the proud king with the imagery of the first man created full of wisdom and beauty (vv. 12-13),
a fully clothed priest (v.13),
a cherubim like the one who guarded the entrance to Eden after the fall (vv.14, 16),
blameless, until he sinned, as was Adam (v.15),
expelled from the heavenly garden as was Satan (v. 17), who is discussed, but not addressed in this passage.

This understanding is in agreement with God's specific statement that he is speaking to the King of Tyre,
as well as in agreement with the NT, which shows immortality of all spirits.

It does not set the Scriptures against themselves, as you do.

Michael50 · Jul 11, 2013

Elin said:

Elin,, your post is rediculous. For you to sit here and tell the forum that the "first man was created full of wisdom and beauty is not only wrong,, But it's downright. borderline stupid!

Adam was not "full of wisdom"... He wasn't created with knowledge. lol. Adam was learning as he lived. Elin,,, If Adam was "full of wisdom" he would have known and told Eve how she would be decieved. Instead of Adam blaming the woman and God who gave him the woman,,, he would have known how, when, where, and thru what medium (serpent) Satan would tempt them...But,, none of this was made known to Adam. Plus Adam died from His fall... Yet you are going to attempt to sell me the lie that Adam was full of wisdom! I think not!

"I destroyed you O covering Cherub from the midst of the firey stones." So,, are also so decieved that you believe Adam to be a covering Cherub? An Angel?

Enough, elin,,, you are a tangled hypocritical mess. Believe what you want.

Michael50 · Jul 11, 2013

DiscipleDave said:

First off,, you are the one that is questioning where we shall go once Jesus appears and we meet Him in the air. Does God the Father appear with Jesus in the clouds as the 2nd Coming? No. God the Father is obviously in His "dwelling place"

"O lord my God...hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place." ( 1 Kings 8:28-30)

Jesus went back to heaven,, when He ascended. If He went to present Himself to His Father,, and His sacrifice seems GOOD to His Father,,, and Jesus builds a city,,, Don't you think it stands to reason,, that Jesus would ask His Father if those that the Father gave to Him,, might be with Him in the presence of the Father too!

Floating around in the air for 1000 years makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever!

The Garden of Eden is in heaven, God the Father resides in heaven. The Ark of the covenant that contains the 2 stones with the 10 commandments that God wrote with His finger are there as well. As is the Tree of Life. As is the Holy City Jerusalem!

I have no doubt that we go to heaven...to meet God the Father! "if I go to prepare a place" Doesn't that phrase in itself, explain that Jesus will bring us to that place that he has prepared?

This is all elementary to me.

If I build a house,,, do i bring that house to my Family? Or do I bring my Family to the house I built? I do believe the latter applies.

What point would be made by having the Saints rise into the clouds, if we weren't going to travel somewhere?

I believe you think the 1000 year reign will be spent on the earth. And if you do,, we should move on to that,,, because I will show you that the earth will be in quite the same condition as it was before God organized the Earth by Creation. Void of all human life. A planet in such a disturbed condition that no human life could live on it.

I hesitate to say this,,, but I will...... I am getting a strong inclination that you believe Jesus is also a creation. Am I correct? Do you believe Jesus was created?

Elin · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

Do you have a Biblical basis for your opinion.?

So he would have known the future?

So to you, wisdom is knowing the future?

Wisdom is choosing the best means to the right end.

Seems you have a comprehension problem. . .

Read my post again.

And contradicting the NT is your idea of integrity?

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Michael50 · Jul 11, 2013

Elin said:

Elin,,, you believe the dead are still alive in another form. Because you believe this lie,,, you know good and well that Satan has an avenue to decieve you.

If a dead loved one appeared before you in an apparition and began to communicate with you, how could you possibly know that it would not be a Demon personating the dead loved one you miss and love so very much??? You wouldn't!

I don't believe the dead are alive in some spirit form. If my dad appeared before me, I would dismiss him immedietaly as a Demon. I would NEVER ENTER INTO CONVERSATION WITH IT! Therefore, Satan knows verywell that his power to decieve me has been broken.

You cannot claim the Safeguard that I do. Because you are subject to believe spirits from the dead as alive!

I cannot get you to see the danger you have placed yourself in by believing the dead are alive.

If a person refuses to believe that dead people are still alive in a spirit form,,, I see no danger of being decieved to the point of losing Salvation.

If a person believes the dead are alive in a spirit form and they are wrong,,, then that would pose a huge problem and an opening to where Satan could enter and decieve even further to losing salvation..

I suppose none of this makes any sense to you..
Goodluck.

john832 · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

Elin,, your post is rediculous. For you to sit here and tell the forum that the "first man was created full of wisdom and beauty is not only wrong,, But it's downright. borderline stupid!

Adam was not "full of wisdom"... He wasn't created with knowledge. lol. Adam was learning as he lived. Elin,,, If Adam was "full of wisdom" he would have known and told Eve how she would be decieved. Instead of Adam blaming the woman and God who gave him the woman,,, he would have known how, when, where, and thru what medium (serpent) Satan would tempt them...But,, none of this was made known to Adam. Plus Adam died from His fall... Yet you are going to attempt to sell me the lie that Adam was full of wisdom! I think not!

"I destroyed you O covering Cherub from the midst of the firey stones." So,, are also so decieved that you believe Adam to be a covering Cherub? An Angel?

Enough, elin,,, you are a tangled hypocritical mess. Believe what you want.

Her post would be a deuce and a half full of MBFM. My dog has a better understanding of Isa 14 and Ezek 28.

Elin · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

I believe the NT revelation that:

1) The living spirits of the dead are in the same form in which they were created; i.e., spirits.

2) An immortal spirit returns to its body in Lk 8:55.

3) And what Jesus said:

Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word,he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries.

So what died, and what did not die?

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal llife. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over?

4) We find the same thing in the epistles:

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

Again, what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Again, what was dead? It wasn't their bodies.

Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal
and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

I see your rationale as an extraordinarily flimsy reason to deny the NT revelation regarding the immortality of all spirits--divine, angelic, human and demonic.

DiscipleDave · Jul 11, 2013

Michael50 said:

Brother Michael, i have not questioned where we shall go once Jesus appears and we meet Him in the air. i KNOW what will happen when Jesus comes the second time, He will come and with Him He is bringing the New City Jerusalem that He has prepared for us, When He comes The dead and alive saints will be taken up into the Sky Where He is, and we will follow Him to the New City Jerusalem which came down with Him. This is what God has told me in conversation, and seen in visions from God, so i would not be asking where we will go when He returns to take the Church, i KNOW what He told me concerning this.

You then disagreed with what i said, and then proceeded to explain what you believe to be where we go at the Rapture and made a comment that you have Scriptures to support all that you believe. i challenged this statement, by asking you to show Scriptures that support your belief that we go to Heaven at the time of the Rapture. i am not questioning where we go, i KNOW where we will go, i am asking you to show Scriptures that support what you say will happen at the time of the Rapture. Namely that we go to Heaven. That was question one, there are five other questions that you say you have Scriptural support for, So far we have not got past question one, if you would like let us skip it, and go to question two.

Michael50 said:

Who said anything about God the Father showing up with Jesus in the clouds at the second coming? How is that brought into this topic? In the time before the Holy City was created, the Father dwelled in the Temple which was in Heaven. After Jesus prepared the Holy City, the Father then dwells in the Holy City. When Christ returns, the holy City will be with Him, and in that City will be the Father. Wherever the Father is, is where the Kingdom of Heaven is.

Michael50 said:

yes very reasonable, and is True. As i said before when Jesus Raptures the Church to be with Him, the New City Jerusalem is with Him, and in that Holy City is the Father. When we are taken up to meet Jesus in the Sky, we follow Him to the Holy City which came down with Him. and there we will have our mansions and live inside the Holy City, in the presence of Jesus and His Father, so yes you are correct.

Michael50 said:

lol, that would be entirely correct if that is what is to happen, that is absurd, lol. NO, for a thousand years we live in the Holy City, ON EARTH ruling the nations of the entire world with Jesus Christ. Many prophesies confirm this.

Michael50 said:

oh my, you have many beliefs that are not supported by Scriptures don't you? God the Father resides, not in Heaven but according to Scriptures He resides in the Temple. The Temple is currently in Heaven, so yes that is True, right now, the Father resides in Heaven, but when the Holy City is built the Father will reside there, and the Father will be where the Holy City will be. Please read Revelation Chapter 21, which describes the Holy City, With the Father in it, being on the EARTH. If then according to Rev 21 the Holy City has the Father, and the Holy City is on Earth, then how can the Father be in Heaven at THAT time, when He is in the City, which is on the EARTH?

Michael50 said:

That is one interpretation of that verse, it could also mean, that if Jesus goes to prepare a place for us, that He will bring it with Him when He Returns. That would work as well would it not? Now that belief is supported by Scriptures, for Scriptures plainly teach that the Holy City will have the Father in it, Rev 21, that the Holy City will be on Earth, many verses. AND that the Holy City is ON EARTH at a time when there are still sinners present, who will not be allowed to enter into that Holy City, many verses confirm that as well.

i like you have no doubt that we will meet the Father, and we will follow Jesus to do that. The difference is you believe that will occur in Heaven, and i know it will be on Earth in the New City Jerusalem, where we will meet the Father, and rule the nations of the world with Jesus Christ.

Michael50 said:

Brother Michael, i am not trying to change what you believe, you are entitled to believe as you want to believe. i posted what i believe (know) will happen, you then disagreed with me, and said it is just easier for me to tell you what i believe. then you told what you believed, and said that you have Scriptural support of all that you believe. i then challenged that, KNOWING that there is no Scriptural support that teaches we go to Heaven at the Rapture, even though that is a common worldly belief. And now that you can't find any Scriptural proof is seems to me, and i could be very wrong, that you have changed in your writing demeanor. It almost sounds like you are upset, as to your writing before sounded like you were willing to have an intelligent conversation. It seems to me, that after reviewing the five questions you realized that you do not have Scriptural support for them, and therefore you are now done discussing it logically. i could be wrong though.

Michael50 said:

True, if the house is not mobile. True if it is built on an unmovable foundation. But that logic is not True if something is built that can be moved. For example, i build a mobile home,,,, do i bring that mobile home to my Family? Sure i can, IT IS MOBILE. Isn't the New City Jerusalem a MOBILE City? So Jesus could build it, and bring it to us here on Earth. And the Truth of the matter is, Scriptures teach that is exactly what He will do, prophesies in the old Testament teach that as well. It is plainly written that the New City Jerusalem will come out of Heaven to the EArth

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So we know that the Holy City will come down to Earth, right? We just disagree on the WHEN it will come down, right?
God made the city mobile, so He can bring it to us, bring it to the Earth. He did not build it to remain in Heaven, that we the saints would go to it in Heaven, He built it to bring the Holy City to the Earth for His Saints.

Michael50 said:

Are you not listening to what i have been saying, we do travel somewhere, we follow Jesus to the Holy City, and will be with Him for ever and ever, no matter where He is at in the Universe. And at the time of the Rapture, we meet Him in the air, in the clouds, it the sky. and follow Him to the Holy City which will be over the middle-east, and there we will stay with Him and meet the Father as well, for the Father is in the Holy City. And out of the Holy City we will reign over the nations of the Earth. All this is supported by Scriptures, and is revealed through prophesies in the Old Testament.

Michael50 said:

So then we are done discussing the five question i presented which you say you have support for. Why would we discuss yet another topic, which again has no Scriptural support, i already know the Scriptures you will use and INTERPRET them to mean what you want them to mean, to support your own belief. When i ask you to show support for you belief, when you can't do so, will we change to another topic?

Michael50 said:

Yet another topic?
i thought you said it would be easier to discuss one thing at a time, it appears we were doing exactly that, but now we are discussing none of them, but bringing up other topics.

Six verses teaches that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, what does that tell you? Seriously, explain what it means to be the only begotten son of the Father. Ask a 10 year old what does it mean to be the only begotten son, and they will get it right, leave it to this generation who will try to find some kind of hidden meaning, or mystical meaning, or think they have to be learned and study Hebrew and Greek in order to understand the Word of God. Children can understand and grasp the Word of God, leave it to men to corrupt even the simplest things in the Word to fit their own beliefs, instead of changing their belief to fit the Scriptures and what they plainly say and teach, they will change the meaning of the Scriptures by interpretations to fit there own beliefs.

Tell me do you think Jesus created Himself?

^i^

Michael50 · Jul 11, 2013

DiscipleDave said:

Brother Michael, i have not questioned where we shall go once Jesus appears and we meet Him in the air. i KNOW what will happen when Jesus comes the second time, He will come and with Him He is bringing the New City Jerusalem that He has prepared for us, When He comes The dead and alive saints will be taken up into the Sky Where He is, and we will follow Him to the New City Jerusalem which came down with Him. This is what God has told me in conversation, and seen in visions from God, so i would not be asking where we will go when He returns to take the Church, i KNOW what He told me concerning this.

You then disagreed with what i said, and then proceeded to explain what you believe to be where we go at the Rapture and made a comment that you have Scriptures to support all that you believe. i challenged this statement, by asking you to show Scriptures that support your belief that we go to Heaven at the time of the Rapture. i am not questioning where we go, i KNOW where we will go, i am asking you to show Scriptures that support what you say will happen at the time of the Rapture. Namely that we go to Heaven. That was question one, there are five other questions that you say you have Scriptural support for, So far we have not got past question one, if you would like let us skip it, and go to question two.

Who said anything about God the Father showing up with Jesus in the clouds at the second coming? How is that brought into this topic? In the time before the Holy City was created, the Father dwelled in the Temple which was in Heaven. After Jesus prepared the Holy City, the Father then dwells in the Holy City. When Christ returns, the holy City will be with Him, and in that City will be the Father. Wherever the Father is, is where the Kingdom of Heaven is.

yes very reasonable, and is True. As i said before when Jesus Raptures the Church to be with Him, the New City Jerusalem is with Him, and in that Holy City is the Father. When we are taken up to meet Jesus in the Sky, we follow Him to the Holy City which came down with Him. and there we will have our mansions and live inside the Holy City, in the presence of Jesus and His Father, so yes you are correct.

lol, that would be entirely correct if that is what is to happen, that is absurd, lol. NO, for a thousand years we live in the Holy City, ON EARTH ruling the nations of the entire world with Jesus Christ. Many prophesies confirm this.

oh my, you have many beliefs that are not supported by Scriptures don't you? God the Father resides, not in Heaven but according to Scriptures He resides in the Temple. The Temple is currently in Heaven, so yes that is True, right now, the Father resides in Heaven, but when the Holy City is built the Father will reside there, and the Father will be where the Holy City will be. Please read Revelation Chapter 21, which describes the Holy City, With the Father in it, being on the EARTH. If then according to Rev 21 the Holy City has the Father, and the Holy City is on Earth, then how can the Father be in Heaven at THAT time, when He is in the City, which is on the EARTH?

That is one interpretation of that verse, it could also mean, that if Jesus goes to prepare a place for us, that He will bring it with Him when He Returns. That would work as well would it not? Now that belief is supported by Scriptures, for Scriptures plainly teach that the Holy City will have the Father in it, Rev 21, that the Holy City will be on Earth, many verses. AND that the Holy City is ON EARTH at a time when there are still sinners present, who will not be allowed to enter into that Holy City, many verses confirm that as well.

i like you have no doubt that we will meet the Father, and we will follow Jesus to do that. The difference is you believe that will occur in Heaven, and i know it will be on Earth in the New City Jerusalem, where we will meet the Father, and rule the nations of the world with Jesus Christ.

Brother Michael, i am not trying to change what you believe, you are entitled to believe as you want to believe. i posted what i believe (know) will happen, you then disagreed with me, and said it is just easier for me to tell you what i believe. then you told what you believed, and said that you have Scriptural support of all that you believe. i then challenged that, KNOWING that there is no Scriptural support that teaches we go to Heaven at the Rapture, even though that is a common worldly belief. And now that you can't find any Scriptural proof is seems to me, and i could be very wrong, that you have changed in your writing demeanor. It almost sounds like you are upset, as to your writing before sounded like you were willing to have an intelligent conversation. It seems to me, that after reviewing the five questions you realized that you do not have Scriptural support for them, and therefore you are now done discussing it logically. i could be wrong though.

True, if the house is not mobile. True if it is built on an unmovable foundation. But that logic is not True if something is built that can be moved. For example, i build a mobile home,,,, do i bring that mobile home to my Family? Sure i can, IT IS MOBILE. Isn't the New City Jerusalem a MOBILE City? So Jesus could build it, and bring it to us here on Earth. And the Truth of the matter is, Scriptures teach that is exactly what He will do, prophesies in the old Testament teach that as well. It is plainly written that the New City Jerusalem will come out of Heaven to the EArth

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So we know that the Holy City will come down to Earth, right? We just disagree on the WHEN it will come down, right?
God made the city mobile, so He can bring it to us, bring it to the Earth. He did not build it to remain in Heaven, that we the saints would go to it in Heaven, He built it to bring the Holy City to the Earth for His Saints.

Are you not listening to what i have been saying, we do travel somewhere, we follow Jesus to the Holy City, and will be with Him for ever and ever, no matter where He is at in the Universe. And at the time of the Rapture, we meet Him in the air, in the clouds, it the sky. and follow Him to the Holy City which will be over the middle-east, and there we will stay with Him and meet the Father as well, for the Father is in the Holy City. And out of the Holy City we will reign over the nations of the Earth. All this is supported by Scriptures, and is revealed through prophesies in the Old Testament.

So then we are done discussing the five question i presented which you say you have support for. Why would we discuss yet another topic, which again has no Scriptural support, i already know the Scriptures you will use and INTERPRET them to mean what you want them to mean, to support your own belief. When i ask you to show support for you belief, when you can't do so, will we change to another topic?

Yet another topic?
i thought you said it would be easier to discuss one thing at a time, it appears we were doing exactly that, but now we are discussing none of them, but bringing up other topics.

Six verses teaches that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, what does that tell you? Seriously, explain what it means to be the only begotten son of the Father. Ask a 10 year old what does it mean to be the only begotten son, and they will get it right, leave it to this generation who will try to find some kind of hidden meaning, or mystical meaning, or think they have to be learned and study Hebrew and Greek in order to understand the Word of God. Children can understand and grasp the Word of God, leave it to men to corrupt even the simplest things in the Word to fit their own beliefs, instead of changing their belief to fit the Scriptures and what they plainly say and teach, they will change the meaning of the Scriptures by interpretations to fit there own beliefs.

Tell me do you think Jesus created Himself?

^i^

I gave you scriptures and reasoning. You reject both. Remember,, I am not the one asking the questions,, you are.. I know we go to heaven. You believe we come to earth to rule for a 1000 years....then what, do we get voted out? lol,,

The scripture says Jesus shall appear in the clouds at his second Coming. The scriptures do not say that the Holy City and God the Father, will appear with Jesus in the clouds at His (Jesus) 2nd Coming... So,, that idea is false. You must have made that up.

The living wicked are killed by the brightness of the coming of Jesus. Rev 20:5 says "the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were finished.. You seem to have us ruling over them as if dead people need to be given instruction. That's another rediculous claim, i suppose God didn't show you that vision yet.

After the plagues, hailstones, a great earthquake (the worst ever), this earth will be void of all human life. Jeremiah the Prophet had a real Vision,, not like yours,,, and in his Vision of the earth after Jesus came was this:

"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be as dung upon the ground." (Jeremiah 25:33)

"I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light, I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled. And all the hills moved back and forth, I beheld, and indeed there was no man. And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all it's cities were broken down At the precense of the Lord By his fierce Anger." (Jeremiah 4:23-26)

As you can see the planet earth will be in total chaos during the 1000 years that are in Heaven. The wicked are killed at the appearance of Jesus,, and they wont live again until the 1000 years has ended.

The earth during this time is in total darkness. Satan and his demons are the only ones alive on the planet. They have no power, that is,, they have nobody to influence or decieve.

I knew you believed Jesus is nothing but a mere creation. And I told you so. That is very condescending belief you have.

I only jumped ahead to confirm what I already seemed to know. That you believe Jesus has a beginning.

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one,, You go ahead and make any claim you desire.

If you want to claim I couldn't answer your questions,,, you go ahead and make that claim.

I don't think it's possible for you to understand the Truth. So,, believe as you desire.

DiscipleDave · Aug 10, 2013

Michael50 said:

I gave you scriptures and reasoning. You reject both. Remember,, I am not the one asking the questions,, you are.. I know we go to heaven. You believe we come to earth to rule for a 1000 years....then what, do we get voted out? lol,,

The scripture says Jesus shall appear in the clouds at his second Coming. The scriptures do not say that the Holy City and God the Father, will appear with Jesus in the clouds at His (Jesus) 2nd Coming... So,, that idea is false. You must have made that up.

The living wicked are killed by the brightness of the coming of Jesus. Rev 20:5 says "the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were finished.. You seem to have us ruling over them as if dead people need to be given instruction. That's another rediculous claim, i suppose God didn't show you that vision yet.

After the plagues, hailstones, a great earthquake (the worst ever), this earth will be void of all human life. Jeremiah the Prophet had a real Vision,, not like yours,,, and in his Vision of the earth after Jesus came was this:

"The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be as dung upon the ground." (Jeremiah 25:33)

"I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light, I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled. And all the hills moved back and forth, I beheld, and indeed there was no man. And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all it's cities were broken down At the precense of the Lord By his fierce Anger." (Jeremiah 4:23-26)

As you can see the planet earth will be in total chaos during the 1000 years that are in Heaven. The wicked are killed at the appearance of Jesus,, and they wont live again until the 1000 years has ended.

The earth during this time is in total darkness. Satan and his demons are the only ones alive on the planet. They have no power, that is,, they have nobody to influence or decieve.

I knew you believed Jesus is nothing but a mere creation. And I told you so. That is very condescending belief you have.

I only jumped ahead to confirm what I already seemed to know. That you believe Jesus has a beginning.

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one,, You go ahead and make any claim you desire.

If you want to claim I couldn't answer your questions,,, you go ahead and make that claim.

I don't think it's possible for you to understand the Truth. So,, believe as you desire.

God be with you Brother.

^i^

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