Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ?

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Sorry. That's not the title for my sermon today. I don't do sermons. That's a real question brought to me by reading Numbers 5:6-10.

And, yeah, I know this is supposed to be about stealing, as all my Dead Guys say, but it seems to go past that. "Breaking faith with the Lord." Doesn't that cover all ten commandment? It seems to me the first five commandments cover how to behave inwardly and outwardly directly to God, but the rest cover how to inwardly and outwardly behave with others, which is still indirectly behaving to God. So if we break any of them, there goes "breaking faith."

So if I cheat on hubby, that's breaking faith with him and God. If I lie, that's breaking faith with the person I lie to and/or about, plus breaking faith with God, and if I covet, same deal. That means it's all stealing, sometimes stealing from God and sometimes it's that plus stealing from someone else. So how much repenting am I really doing if I just say "oops, sorry about that," even if I really mean that and I'm really repenting of it, if I don't take that next step to restitution?

And, if that makes sense, what is restitution for cheating on a spouse even if its "just lusting," or calling a brother a fool, or lying about someone? Seems to me, sometimes the sin is best handled by not telling the person you sinned against. (How often would you want to hear from your spouse, "I was lusting after (fill in blank) today, and I'm really sorry"? Or, how often do you really want to hear, "I thought you were a fool today, and I'm really sorry"?) But, have we simply dropped restitution from repenting? Since the concept is to restore a bit more than we took by sinning, that doesn't seem right, but how could I figure out how much I should pay the church for lusting? (And how broke would I be if I kept giving God money every time I broke a commandment?)

I don't want a halfhearted repent, because that's not much of a repent, but just because Jesus filled the Law doesn't mean the Law is void. He's the ram, not the payer of the restitution. (See verse 8 for that reference.) Well, he did pay for our sins, but I don't think that means we no longer need to restore whatever we screwed up for the commandments about how to behave around others. So, honest question -- Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ? I'm not seeing that well.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Oh, and I'll be out of the house much of the day, so sorry if I don't get back to this quickly. I figure everyone here is good at talking to each other, so I don't really need to be here for y'all to clarify what that means after Christ took our sins to the cross.

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Sorry. That's not the title for my sermon today. I don't do sermons. That's a real question brought to me by reading Numbers 5:6-10.

And, yeah, I know this is supposed to be about stealing, as all my Dead Guys say, but it seems to go past that. "Breaking faith with the Lord." Doesn't that cover all ten commandment? It seems to me the first five commandments cover how to behave inwardly and outwardly directly to God, but the rest cover how to inwardly and outwardly behave with others, which is still indirectly behaving to God. So if we break any of them, there goes "breaking faith."

So if I cheat on hubby, that's breaking faith with him and God. If I lie, that's breaking faith with the person I lie to and/or about, plus breaking faith with God, and if I covet, same deal. That means it's all stealing, sometimes stealing from God and sometimes it's that plus stealing from someone else. So how much repenting am I really doing if I just say "oops, sorry about that," even if I really mean that and I'm really repenting of it, if I don't take that next step to restitution?

And, if that makes sense, what is restitution for cheating on a spouse even if its "just lusting," or calling a brother a fool, or lying about someone? Seems to me, sometimes the sin is best handled by not telling the person you sinned against. (How often would you want to hear from your spouse, "I was lusting after (fill in blank) today, and I'm really sorry"? Or, how often do you really want to hear, "I thought you were a fool today, and I'm really sorry"?) But, have we simply dropped restitution from repenting? Since the concept is to restore a bit more than we took by sinning, that doesn't seem right, but how could I figure out how much I should pay the church for lusting? (And how broke would I be if I kept giving God money every time I broke a commandment?)

I don't want a halfhearted repent, because that's not much of a repent, but just because Jesus filled the Law doesn't mean the Law is void. He's the ram, not the payer of the restitution. (See verse 8 for that reference.) Well, he did pay for our sins, but I don't think that means we no longer need to restore whatever we screwed up for the commandments about how to behave around others. So, honest question -- Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ? I'm not seeing that well.

What exactly is it you consider worth the gift Christ gave for you, that you feel is worthy "restitution?"

purgedconscience · Jun 25, 2015

Matthew chapter 18 verses 23 thru 35

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In line with what Willie-T asked, there's really no restitution that I can offer the Lord in relation to my sins against Him. I mean, I can show godly sorrow for what I've done which leads to repentance unto salvation, but that salvation ultimately is a gift from the Lord which He bestows upon me by releasing me from my debt.

Around here, as I suppose that you've already noticed, there are a lot of folks, all professing Christians or all those who profess to have had their exceedingly great debts freely erased by God, even though it cost God the price of His Son's blood to cancel out the same, basically grabbing others by their throats as they demand restitution, generally in the form of a public apology, for what they believe is rightly owed them. Where is the patience in having such a debt repayed? I've witnessed poster after poster not confining their offenders to a natural prison, but rather condemning them to an eternal hell. And all in the name of Christ.

What an absolutely ungodly mess that many seem perfectly content to continue with while their blinders remain firmly intact.

That said, Zacchaeus was willing to make restitution and salvation came to his house that day. When possible, I personally believe that we should seek to undo any wrongs which we have committed against another. When not feasibly possible, then we need to humbly ask for forgiveness from both God and the individual whom we have sinned against. Yes, each sin offends two parties:

God and our fellow man.

My two cents worth.

psychomom · Jun 25, 2015

purgedconscience said:

in which order?

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

Hi Lynn the following verses below might throw a bit more light on this.
Boy you don't half know how to get those brain cells working

i dont think it will ever be possible for us to make restitution to Jesus
for all he has done. In essence I think accepting the gift he has freely given
and not rejecting it and being thankful giving Him all the glory, is the best
we can do in that respect.

The following versus however, suggest that when we sin against people then this
is also against God. In that sense I think it means that we should correct the wrong
we do to others. I have heard it said that when we hurt people we hurt God, there is
some truth in that I think.

Sometimes it might be simply saying sorry and putting aside anger, etc.
In other occasions, it might be giving something back which has been taken etc.
It's interesting also that these verses were directed at Gods people. God expected
his people to do the right thing and not take advantage of each other like the
world did. There are many other verses where different standards were expected
of Gods people and the way they treated each other. Like using accurate weights
and measures for example. Gods people need to be honerable, trustworthy, not
out to rip off others etc.

An example of this which is my own pet peeve.

Often people at work will
use work stationary for their own personal use or they will mail private
letters by putting their letters through the mail room without a stamp etc.
I just hate this and always use my own stamps and never take any of the work
stationary home.

In my first job I often did photocopies for my church of various things, but I always
made sure I paid petty cash for this. The other staff in the office thought I was weird
as they just used the photocopy machine for their own personal use whenever they wanted
free of charge.

I know several Christian tradesman who take great pains to make sure they do a good job
and are honest in their dealings with others.

I know I feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit when I do something wrong and sometimes
actions are needed as well as words to make restitution. I don't think we are saved by
making restitution, but in my opinion it quenches the accusations, suspicions and consequences
of sin and closes the door to satan in our lives.

This is my opinion anyway, maybe others with more Greek/Hebrew knowledge will understand
this from a different angle?

Leviticus 6:1-7 NKJV
[1] And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: [2] "If a person sins and commits a trespass
against the LORD by lying to his neighbor about what was delivered to him for
safekeeping, or about a pledge, or about a robbery, or if he has extorted from
his neighbor, [3] or if he has found what was lost and lies concerning it, and swears
falsely-in any one of these things that a man may do in which he sins: [4] then it shall

be, because he has sinned and is guilty, that he shall restore what he has stolen, or the
thing which he has extorted, or what was delivered to him for safekeeping, or the lost
thing which he found, [5] or all that about which he has sworn falsely. He shall restore
its full value, add one-fifth more to it, and give it to whomever it belongs, on the day

of his trespass offering. [6] And he shall bring his trespass offering to the LORD, a ram
without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering, to the priest
[7] So the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven
for any one of these things that he may have done in which he trespasses."

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

purgedconscience said:

Matthew chapter 18 verses 23 thru 35

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In line with what Willie-T asked, there's really no restitution that I can offer the Lord in relation to my sins against Him. I mean, I can show godly sorrow for what I've done which leads to repentance unto salvation, but that salvation ultimately is a gift from the Lord which He bestows upon me by releasing me from my debt.

Around here, as I suppose that you've already noticed, there are a lot of folks, all professing Christians or all those who profess to have had their exceedingly great debts freely erased by God, even though it cost God the price of His Son's blood to cancel out the same, basically grabbing others by their throats as they demand restitution, generally in the form of a public apology, for what they believe is rightly owed them. Where is the patience in having such a debt repayed? I've witnessed poster after poster not confining their offenders to a natural prison, but rather condemning them to an eternal hell. And all in the name of Christ.

What an absolutely ungodly mess that many seem perfectly content to continue with while their blinders remain firmly intact.

That said, Zacchaeus was willing to make restitution and salvation came to his house that day. When possible, I personally believe that we should seek to undo any wrongs which we have committed against another. When not feasibly possible, then we need to humbly ask for forgiveness from both God and the individual whom we have sinned against. Yes, each sin offends two parties:

God and our fellow man.

My two cents worth.

Instead of judging others, how's this one work for you? I tell everyone else that you are a "stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herder." I realize I'm wrong, come to you, and repent.

Is that enough? Lots of people still have you pegged as a nerf herder. I've defamed you. Shouldn't there be restitution even if that sin was nailed up with Jesus? (Ha! Finally a sin that doesn't have to be sent to Jesus. Feels good. lol)

This is what I'm saying. Sometimes sins aren't fixed merely by reconciling. And they aren't fix just by repenting and laying it at Christ's feet. Restitution is important, even now. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Instead of judging others, how's this one work for you? I tell everyone else that you are a "stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerf herder." I realize I'm wrong, come to you, and repent.

Is that enough? Lots of people still have you pegged as a nerf herder. I've defamed you. Shouldn't there be restitution even if that sin was nailed up with Jesus? (Ha! Finally a sin that doesn't have to be sent to Jesus. Feels good. lol)

This is what I'm saying. Sometimes sins aren't fixed merely by reconciling. And they aren't fix just by repenting and laying it at Christ's feet. Restitution is important, even now. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

Lol, what's a nerf herder - that has to be a made up word.

Now say sorry to PC and
bake him some cookies (sorry couldn't resist).

purgedconscience · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

I'm good with the cookies part. Not too sugary, though. I'm already a bit high strung. haha.

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Wow! Wow! Wow! I don't think you may realize how very much that goes completely against what Jesus asks of us. You tried to make a joke of it, but your words actually DO reflect the true desires of many of us when it comes to hoping to make restitution for our sins by our own efforts.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

Right, it isn't salvation. That only comes through Christ. But it is a matter of how far are we repenting? When I got convicted for stealing paper at work through using they copier, I bought a ream of paper and brought it in. I know I never came close to using that much paper, but the ink cost money, the electricity to operate it cost money, and servicing the machine cost money, so I figured better a little more that than trying for even.

Stealing cost money. Even if Jesus died on the cross for the thief, it really doesn't restore what was taken -- whether it's actual stealing or defaming or lusting or thinking a brother is a fool. It cost the person we steal from more than the actual thing we stole. That's why I'm asking about restitution.

And, I realize it cost God something too -- 33 years on earth not feeling fully all he feels as the nonhuman form of God, (God knows when this world is over. While on earth, Jesus didn't, so he lost something of the wholeness he had in the Godhead.) Battered, hunger, beaten, spat on, tortured and then killed in one of the most elongated torturous ways Man has ever created to kill another person. It cost God big time, and we can't make that up to him, but don't we owe a little more then we're giving somehow? That really is a debt we can't pay restitution for, but shouldn't that make us want to restitute for the wrongs we do to others more? I really don't know how that would work, so I'm asking.

purgedconscience · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

Good question. Here's what I'm thinking:

If you misjudge me and then share the same misjudgments with others and they believe the same, then where is any discernment on their parts? Wouldn't they be equally as guilty in God's eyes for believing the lie as the one who initially told them the lie?

I've been lied about numerous times in my short life. I said somewhere on this forum the other day that dead people don't respond to negative things that are said about them or done to them. Could that be the problem? That people haven't truly been crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism and raised up into a newness of life where it truly is no longer they who live, but Christ Who lives in them? Personally, I believe that this is precisely the problem. I'm learning that when somebody maligns me and I take it personally that there is something yet terribly wrong within me that needs to be fixed. We all need to come to the place where when we are maligned we don't take it personally and learn to pray for our enemies and false accusers even as Christ taught us to. I'm not into holding grudges or keeping a journal of what others owe me. As a Christian, I'm indebted to all men to lay my life down for them as Christ laid His life down for me. It's all a matter of where we're fixing our gazes. Is it firmly upon ourselves? In many cases, it is. When we get to the place where our gazes are fixed upon Christ and others, offenses will go out the window.

Now I'm up to three cents.

haha.

By the way, how did you know that I am a scruffy looking nerf herder? Was this by Divine revelation or are you having me followed?

haha.

Willie-T · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

It's a Star Wars thing.....

oldhermit · Jun 25, 2015

wrong thread.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Miri said:

"Why, you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy-looking Nerf herder."

Too sci-fi nerd for you? lol

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

atwhatcost said:

I don't know why it doesn't look like a link on my screen, but click on the quote and you'll probably remember where I got that line.

purgedconscience · Jun 25, 2015

oldhermit said:

I'm guessing that you're referring to the Deity of Christ thread. Am I correct? I'll check it out later. Right now, if I don't go out and run some errands, then my wife is going to be facing manslaughter charges for killing me. haha.

purgedconscience · Jun 25, 2015

oldhermit said:

I think that answers my question. I'll look into it later. Thank you.

atwhatcost · Jun 25, 2015

Willie-T said:

Wow wow wow back at you! I was excited that finally I'm mentioning a sin I really really didn't do being nailed. I would never call anyone a nerf herder for the obvious reason -- what's a nerf herder? Since I never meant anything I described PC as and he knows it, it's no sin. But, wow wow wow, everything anyone else does IS a sin against YOU?

Just wow! Thanks for reminding me why I put you on ignore. I'll stop being nosy enough to find out what you said again.

Miri · Jun 25, 2015

I'm gonna have that phrase stuck in my brain now!

Ok ok digresses to Star Wars, thread back on track

Where does restitution fit into repent in Christ?

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