Which Came First...Bible or the Church

[Voxxkowalski]

Hi Voxx, and welcome to CC!
I checked out your profile page, as I usually do with new members, to understand from whence they come. In your case I found the following as your favourite "Bible" verse:

"The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth."

Of course, this is not biblical. It sounds Catholic, though you don't identify yourself on your profile page as Catholic. Therefore, I will ask you directly: Do you follow/believe in/support/adhere to the Roman Catholic Church? If not Catholic, is there another "group" or "organization" with which you identify, and what is it?

Jesus Christ is the Truth. He pre-existed the Church (universal, not Catholic; used similarly henceforth). The role of the Church is to witness to the Truth and to spread the Good News of Christ. The Bible technically post-dates the origin of the Church, but it pre-dates all existing churches, including the Catholic (as you may have noticed, the Catholic Church is not considered Christian by most on this site; that issue is well-documented and discussed on other threads).

So to answer your question another way, the Bible is the "yardstick" by which all truth (small 't') is measured. Generally speaking, all Christian churches uphold the Bible as the rule of faith, rather than standing over the Bible as some sort of authority. If it doesn't line up with the Bible, it isn't true.

Not biblical?
1st Tim 3-14These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The Bible was established in a Roman Catholic council in the 4th century. This is a historical fact.
The Church with Popes bishops and dogmas nearly identical as today.

 

[p_rehbein]

I didnt ask you what you thought I asked you what was true.

You DO REALIZE your OP question is STILL visible, right?


Here.......lemme help ya


Which came first in CHRISTIAN history?
The Bible inc. New Testament...or the Church


This question calls for one to express an opinion.......goodness

 

[Spherical]

Such a wonderful, pleasant day. Can't you please just go to a Roman Catholic website? No one here is going to become a Catholic or follow the pope. Many, myself included, have been freed from it.
I pray you have a blessed Memorial day.

Free-Will in action.

 

[Dino246]

At one time everyone was Catholic...and Im here to combat this type of bigotry. (disguised as kindness)

You haven't read your church history, your Bible, or your dictionary. I suggest you start with the Bible.

 

[PurerInHeart]

I agree but how do you know this is true...have you been given a direct revelation from God?

Because the Old Testament came before the New Testament.

 

[PennEd]

At one time everyone was Catholic...and Im here to combat this type of bigotry. (disguised as kindness)

Yeah. Someone is invited into a house, insults and accuses the owners of the house, then calls the owners bigots. So if I go to a Roman Catholic website and say" your pope does satan's bidding" and they don't agree, so I call them bigots? I pray the moderators just save us some time and ban.

 

[Voxxkowalski]

Yeah. Someone is invited into a house, insults and accuses the owners of the house, then calls the owners bigots. So if I go to a Roman Catholic website and say" your pope does satan's bidding" and they don't agree, so I call them bigots? I pray the moderators just save us some time and ban.

Actually I do think francis is doing satans bidding....not sure where I insulted or accused (well except you of bigotry)

 

[Magenta]

Hi Voxx, and welcome to CC!
I checked out your profile page, as I usually do with new members, to understand from whence they come. In your case I found the following as your favourite "Bible" verse:

"The Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth."

Of course, this is not biblical. It sounds Catholic, though you don't identify yourself on your profile page as Catholic. Therefore, I will ask you directly: Do you follow/believe in/support/adhere to the Roman Catholic Church? If not Catholic, is there another "group" or "organization" with which you identify, and what is it?

The first thread had a link to some Catholic site. It has been deleted already.

 

[Voxxkowalski]

Because the Old Testament came before the New Testament.

The Gospel of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is only forshadowed in the OT. If I gave you a Bible and ripped out the New Testament...can it right be called the Bible. Your own first post quoted it...In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God...is John calling a book God? Or Jesus Christ....Jesus Christ the only name by which any man can be saved...show me this exact name in the OT.

 

[Dino246]

Not biblical?
1st Tim 3-14These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
The Bible was established in a Roman Catholic council in the 4th century. This is a historical fact.
The Church with Popes bishops and dogmas nearly identical as today.

The wording is unfamiliar to me, though I'll grant it is there as you say.

The Bible was not established by anyone except God Himself; 2 Timothy 3:16. I would refer you to James White's work on the recognition of the Canon of Scripture. There may be better works; his just happens to be one I've come across. The majority of what Christians recognize as Scripture was recognized as such long before the 4th century.

 

[Voxxkowalski]

The first thread had a link to some Catholic site. It has been deleted already.

I looked to see if that was against the rules to have it in your siggy....If I had known I wouldnt have posted it.

 

[Tintin]

The Bible (as in the collection of books that make up the OT and NT) were already recognised as canon during the 1st century AD (the NT had been completed by AD 70). The biblical canon was recognised in an unofficial capacity (most of Christendom didn't dispute that all of these writings were God's inspired Word, written by godly men via Holy Spirit). It was in AD 325, at the Council of Nicea that the biblical canon was officially established.

 

[Voxxkowalski]

The wording is unfamiliar to me, though I'll grant it is there as you say.

The Bible was not established by anyone except God Himself; 2 Timothy 3:16. I would refer you to James White's work on the recognition of the Canon of Scripture. There may be better works; his just happens to be one I've come across. The majority of what Christians recognize as Scripture was recognized as such long before the 4th century.

Ok fair assertion my friend...When if not the fourth century...you name the time? And Mr Whites work is very familiar to me...except I have to ask what makes Mr White a more trustworthy source than the Church?

 

[Voxxkowalski]

The Bible (as in the collection of books that make up the OT and NT) were already recognised as canon during the 1st century AD (the NT had been completed by AD 70). The biblical canon was recognised in an unofficial capacity (most of Christendom didn't dispute that all of these writings were God's inspired Word, written by godly men via Holy Spirit). It was in AD 325, at the Council of Nicea that the biblical canon was officially established.

Fair enough...so what made it "official"?

 

[Tintin]

Fair enough...so what made it "official"?

Church leaders meeting together under the guidance of Holy Spirit to affirm the great Christian doctrines and the entire canon of the Bible, as already recognised by much of Christendom.

 

[Voxxkowalski]

You haven't read your church history, your Bible, or your dictionary. I suggest you start with the Bible.

Show me the list of the different Christian groups in the 1st century? There was only one Church of Christ in the universe...(katholikos-universal) Who preached the Gospel to the world? So at the very least you must use the term catholic for the church...there were no other "flavors".

 

[Voxxkowalski]

Church leaders meeting together under the guidance of Holy Spirit to affirm the great Christian doctrines and the entire canon of the Bible, as already recognised by much of Christendom.

And who were these Church leaders...how were they organised...how did they assert their authority to suppress the false gospels?

 

[PurerInHeart]

The Gospel of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is only forshadowed in the OT. If I gave you a Bible and ripped out the New Testament...can it right be called the Bible. Your own first post quoted it...In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was God...is John calling a book God? Or Jesus Christ....Jesus Christ the only name by which any man can be saved...show me this exact name in the OT.

It was a shadow of the church to come, agreed- therefore the bible came before the church. All scripture is God-Breathed. Unlike our words, yes, the Word is alive. Christ said in Genesis- "Let there be..." and there was! Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the Word (Christ). Christ commanded His apostles to write down things He said- the New Testament is Christ's word, and so is the old. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." When we feed on the Word (bible) we live. We would not be alive physically or spiritually without the Word.

 

[Tintin]

And who were these Church leaders...how were they organised...how did they assert their authority to suppress the false gospels?

It's pretty involved. I suggest you Google the answer. Look for credible Christian websites. Not those that try to dispute the Bible and Christianity. And there are plenty of credible books available on how we received the biblical canon. The truth is out there.

 

[Dino246]

Ok fair assertion my friend...When if not the fourth century...you name the time? And Mr Whites work is very familiar to me...except I have to ask what makes Mr White a more trustworthy source than the Church?

I didn't say White was "more trustworthy". He does, however, do his homework. As to your use of "Church" capitalized, I suspect that you mean the Catholic Church.

Show me the list of the different Christian groups in the 1st century? There was only one Church of Christ in the universe...(katholikos-universal) Who preached the Gospel to the world? So at the very least you must use the term catholic for the church...there were no other "flavors".

This is a fallacy of equivocation. "Catholic" as in Roman Catholic is not the same thing as "catholic" as in universal. Don't play word games.