Who believes that all who die saved go to heaven at death?

[cfultz3]

The Bible uses the term "asleep" or "sleeping" when referring to the physical body of the believer at death (Jn 11:11-14, 1 Cor 15:20, 1 Thes 5:9-11). For the believers, the body is asleep. But one day, it will be transformed and reunited to the believer at the final resurrection (Php 3:21). We (those who belong to Christ) shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (in Christ) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, (1 Co 15:51-52) of which, the body is being spoken about.

The story told by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26 about the beggar Lazarus and the rich man tells us what happens as soon as we die. In this story we are shown that our reward in the after life is instant upon death.

1) "the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom'
2) "The rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell"
3) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed

If we go over to Heb 9:27, we are told, "And so it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement". We see that there is an instant judgement upon our death. There is no delay in receiving either rewards or punishment, Heaven or hell. This is the fate of the soul upon death. Keep in mind that this is different than the raising of the believers bodies and souls at the rapture of mentioned above.

Until the shedding of Jesus's blood on the cross, there was no remission of sins (Mat 26:28). Without the remission of sin which comes with the acceptance of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us, there is no entrance into heaven. So, therefore, all the saints who died before Jesus having died on the cross could not enter heaven and were held as prisoners in the part of hell called Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom. It is for this reason that Jesus went to Hades to preach the Gospel to the righteous awaiting their Messiah, and opened the prison to those who were bound (Isa 61:1). These saints could not have entered Heaven until Jesus became their only sufficable sacrifice.

So how then were they able to enter heaven? On the death of Jesus on the cross, the bible tells us the following sequence happened.

1. Jesus tells the thief on the cross that they will be together in Paradise that day. (not in Heaven) Lk 23:43. So they both went to Paradise that day.
2. The veil of the temple was torn open when Jesus died, showing us that we now have direct access to God ourselves. Mt. 27:51
3. The graves of the saints around Jerusalem opened up when Jesus died. Mt. 27:52 Perhaps, that thief was one of them.
4. Jesus went intHades. Eph 4:9-10
5. The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. They who shall hear, shall live. Jn 5:25
6. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Pe 3:19; 4:6
7. Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. (Jesus took the keys away from Satan.) Rev 1:18
8. Christ will not stay in Hades Acts 2:27, 31
9. Jesus rises from the dead. Mk 16:6
10. The saints came out of their graves which were opened AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, and walked in the city. Mt 27:53

It has only been since the time that Jesus died for us on the cross that any saint can enter Heaven, for they have accepted Jesus. It is only through Jesus that anyone can be saved from death. Jesus did not preach to those in Hades who were being tormented, seeing that He says, "O LORD, Thou hast brought up my soul from the grave (Hades). Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the dungeon (KJV: pit) (Psa 30:3). Jesus, having preached to the righteous dead, has no further need of Paradise in Hades. There is no more place, which is called by the Catholics "purgatory", where we need to go and await for the remission of our sins. All saints now go direct to Heaven, and sinners directly to Hell. That is, their souls. The bodies of both the righteous and the wicked do remain in the grave until the rapture for the saints, and the great white throne Judgement for all of the rest of mankind. (Rev 20:11-12)

 

[GreenNnice]

I Timothy 1:10

Speak with so sound of doctrine that the feeling inside you from what you say is Spirit-felt

But I put down the wrong verse, or, at least a different apt verse, LOL because the Lord leads me, I always hope and pray, the verse should be....

II Timothy 1:10.

1 Tim 1:10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I submit that believing death isn't death is not sound doctrine.

No, just be SURE of what doctrine you (all believers) say is sound, I pray the Lord leads all others' speak I read, for what we speak to others will be upheld by God in the most extremist of fashion, both for punishment and reward on our Judgment .

When Christ was Resurrected, those that slept came up out of their graves it says.



Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Now do you really believe that they rose with Him, and you won't ?

He is The Alpha and The omega, The beginning and The End.

1Pe 3:18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
1Pe 3:20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
1Pe 3:21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

Beautifully, brilliantly said, ToKnowHim, this appears to me to be buttressing krisbri's Matt. 22 verses said earlier in this thread of the 'resurrection of the dead.'

 

[LANCY]

You will notice that most people who advocate soul sleep usually have to pull from the old testament to support it. The new testament makes it overwhelmingly clear that we go to be with the Lord right at death. Jesus even used the old testament to prove to the Sadducee's who didnt believe in the resurrection and felt it couldnt be proven through the Pentateuch, that not only is there a resurrection, but the dead are alive right now.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To me the soul sleepers are a modern day version of the Sadducee's. They do believe in the resurrection but they think we remain dead until the return of Christ. So therefore they do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

You are correct in what you say that they look to the old testament to support thier believe because it is very clear in the new testament that Jesus promises that when we die we will be with Him. This was discussed in church today as a matter a fact

 

[Tombo]

Dead believers will receive their resurrected bodies at the end, believers who are alive when the Lord returns will be changed into their glorified bodies also at the end. But the deceased dead are now with the Lord in their spirit. There is no contradiction.
And Paul's words cannot be contradicted, nor can the verse that says "God is not the God of the dead but of the living". If you believe that the saved are dead even in thier spirit essence, then how can God be the God of the living?????
You are making the mistake of assuming that those verses in the old testament apply to all people, saved and unsaved alike. That is proven false by what Paul says about "being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." When the Lord returns we will never again be absent from the body, but now thousands of believers die every day and are absent from their bodies. What does that tell you? It tells me, by Paul's own words, that they are present with the Lord.
God bless.
Why is this so hard for people to see and comprehend???

Tom

 

[cfultz3]

Why is this so hard for people to see and comprehend???

Tom

It is for the simply confusion about the facts of the two Covenants. Under the old, they all did die and received the just sentence of death and went to Hades. They who went to Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, are the ones who Christ spoke to about the Gospel they awaited for. And they who accepted it were the ones who came out of their graves. And if this were said in the old Testament, it would have been said, "they came out of Hades (graves)".

Under the new Covenant, that veil which separated us from God has been removed and now we, all those who accept Christ for the remission of their sins, no longer face the sentence of death, where Hades is the abode. But, now we can stand in the presence of God without sin. Which sin did condemn all to death. So if you are in Christ, there is no sin, if not sin, then no death sentence. If no death sentence, then all that which awaits us is to be present before our Lord and God.

If only they who teach would teach from all of God's Word, much confusion would be set abay.

 

[shroom2]

I truly feel sad for you all. You are basing your doctrine on a parable.

Carry on.

 

[prophecyman]

I see that you too don't want to look at the verses I've shown from the Bible. But I don't want to go over the same thing with you, or shroom2, or any others who have made their view known. I want input from others. This is my thread, please respect it.


Tom

Apparently anyone who does not conform to your particular perception of scripture becomes an invalid commentator, good luck with those that agree with you, I'm sure that it will be most edifying.

If you want respect, try being respectful to others opinions, after all respect is a two way street. But you seem like a fellow that won't take correction so easily, so come back with your best shot, I just know you will!

 

[cfultz3]

I truly feel sad for you all. You are basing your doctrine on a parable.

Carry on.

Hi Shroom,

If you like, take whatever I said concerning the parable of the begger and rich man out and whatever remains will still hold true.

 

[Tombo]

Apparently anyone who does not conform to your particular perception of scripture becomes an invalid commentator, good luck with those that agree with you, I'm sure that it will be most edifying.

If you want respect, try being respectful to others opinions, after all respect is a two way street. But you seem like a fellow that won't take correction so easily, so come back with your best shot, I just know you will!

I do think that I've been unduly harsh with some here (you included, Pman) and I want to apologize for being rude in my zeal for the truth. I still believe that you, and the others who hold you view, are wrong, but I should not have been so unloving and harsh in my response.
If we debate about this (or any other subject) let's stick with scripture and civility. But I must still point out what I see to be heresy for the sake of other Christians here who may not understand what some here are speaking of. I am not speaking of this matter in particular, but more of the teachings of universlaism and denying Christ's Deity, etc. Some things we/I can't compromise on, but I hope to make my postiton clear in a scriptural way without being unduly harsh.
God bless.

Tom

 

[shroom2]

Hi Shroom,

If you like, take whatever I said concerning the parable of the begger and rich man out and whatever remains will still hold true.

It is for the simply confusion about the facts of the two Covenants. Under the old, they all did die and received the just sentence of death and went to Hades.

I gather you take that to mean someplace where their spirits or souls are consciously alive. It's not. Dead people go to the grave.

They who went to Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, are the ones who Christ spoke to about the Gospel they awaited for.

Nobody went to paradise. Nobody is in paradise now. Nobody is in hell now. Nobody is in heaven now, except for Jesus Christ. Dead people are in the grave. Christ was the firstfruits (1 Cor 15:20). We will follow at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff). OT believers will follow at Christ's return to earth at the end of the trib (1 Cor 15:23). Everyone else will be raised at the great white throne judgment (Rev 20:5).

And they who accepted it were the ones who came out of their graves.

Nobody has come out of the grave yet, except Christ.

And if this were said in the old Testament, it would have been said, "they came out of Hades (graves)".

Under the new Covenant, that veil which separated us from God has been removed and now we, all those who accept Christ for the remission of their sins, no longer face the sentence of death, where Hades is the abode.

When people die, they still go to the grave. Dead Christians will be raised at the return of Christ. Dead OT believers will be raised at the resurrection of the just. Everyone else will be raised at the resurrection of the unjust.

But, now we can stand in the presence of God without sin. Which sin did condemn all to death. So if you are in Christ, there is no sin, if not sin, then no death sentence. If no death sentence, then all that which awaits us is to be present before our Lord and God.

Death is not yet "swallowed up in victory". That will happen at the rapture and other two resurrections.

Death is still an enemy (1 Cor 15:26). Until it is destroyed, when we die, we are dead.

I won't keep responding to these threads. I have tormented Tom and others enough.

I am fully persuaded that what I have presented is the truth, and documentable in scripture. I will stand before Christ one day and be accountable for what I have presented. I have no qualms about doing just that. If I'm wrong, I'll find out. We all will.

God bless!

 

[cfultz3]

Shroom,

What you responded to is what I condensely said in post 21. From there, would you respond?

 

[shroom2]

Shroom,

What you responded to is what I condensely said in post 21. From there, would you respond?

What I said in my last post pretty much covers it.

God bless.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I do think that I've been unduly harsh with some here (you included, Pman) and I want to apologize for being rude in my zeal for the truth. I still believe that you, and the others who hold you view, are wrong, but I should not have been so unloving and harsh in my response.
If we debate about this (or any other subject) let's stick with scripture and civility. But I must still point out what I see to be heresy for the sake of other Christians here who may not understand what some here are speaking of. I am not speaking of this matter in particular, but more of the teachings of universlaism and denying Christ's Deity, etc. Some things we/I can't compromise on, but I hope to make my postiton clear in a scriptural way without being unduly harsh.
God bless.

Tom

Tom - Have you ever watched LI Medium? I don't know if you have that where you live but she claims to speak to the dead and she lets the "spirits of the dead" guide her. She claims that she has no control over the "spirits" once the "spirits" start talking to her. She gets people to believe that their loved ones are speaking to them through her. Have you ever read what God says about a necromancer? BTW, there you have your familiar spirit. When you say that you believe the dead are alive now that is what you are supporting.

 

[Tombo]

Tom - Have you ever watched LI Medium? I don't know if you have that where you live but she claims to speak to the dead and she lets the "spirits of the dead" guide her. She claims that she has no control over the "spirits" once the "spirits" start talking to her. She gets people to believe that their loved ones are speaking to them through her. Have you ever read what God says about a necromancer? BTW, there you have your familiar spirit. When you say that you believe the dead are alive now that is what you are supporting.

That is ridiculous, I won't even justify it with an answer.

Tom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That is ridiculous, I won't even justify it with an answer.

Tom

It seems that I have offended you and that is not what I meant to do and if I did I apologize - but most people who believe that the dead are alive do believe in that stuff.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Nobody went to paradise. Nobody is in paradise now. Nobody is in hell now. Nobody is in heaven now, except for Jesus Christ. Dead people are in the grave.

I believe you are in error. Could you explain these verses if there is nobody in heaven except for Jesus Christ?
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[GreenNnice]

I believe you are in error. Could you explain these verses if there is nobody in heaven except for Jesus Christ?
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

-----
I can answer the 'today,' verse, shalt I save shroom2 some time

Shroom2 puts the comma in a different place. He claims , and, I can't deny it though I can't like it either, but shroom2 adores that verse like this:

Verily, verily, I say into you today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice the comma shroom2 moves
to the back?


---to me, 'shalt thou be in paradise seems bad sentence construction by Jesus , not to mention, starting a phrase or sentence with 'Shall' lends support to the phrase not being a statement, but a question.

Seems led to me and certainly the thief needed to have been confused.

---
I would have to go through scripture but IF some want to dismiss Lazarus and the rich man historical account as a untruth from Jesus, so be it. It was thetefore then meant to teach a lesson merely that is not about hell analogy even though it is speaking directly of hell.

Anyway, this story, and, sorry, but I refuse to use the word parable because when Jesus Apple in patables he actually said the story was a 'parable.'

But, let's look at the wording of three false stories that are said to be false because of beginning Jesus teaching wording : 'There was a certain rich man....'



So, we look at the wording of Jesus in red-letter scripture of the gospel books, matthew, mark, luke, john, BEFORE the big sentence to the thief on the cross next to them ...

first off, before I even get to Jesus , I get to Jesus I will get to God in the old testament ....

Lets start with the 10 commandments... How do they all start?

'Thou shalt ...'

Now, how does Jesus start with His sentence to the Thief on the cross....

Verily...., thou shalt be with--no, WAIT, that's not it is it...

Verily...., SHALT THOU ......paradise.'.

This construction needs to be PROOFED now against the red-letter words of Jesus. Does He start a lot of His answers to sadduccees, disciples, apostles, et al, with a question word like 'shalt?'

---
Shroom2, I'd say I gave breath to this questioner's verses a lot more than you bargained for

God bless, Christ bro.

 

[His_Will]

1 THess 4:13-18 (subject is where are the dead/ spacifically the believers) 1 Thess.4:15 kjv "prevent"- to preceed, we cant preceed them cause they have already passed over (gone before us) vs16 the dead in Christ rise first. / all depends what context of "Heaven" you are speaking about. If you are speaking about the positive side of the spirit realm described in Lk.16:19-31 a true believers spirit goes there at the instant of physical death 2 Cor.5:7-10/ Ecc.12:6-7/ Ps.104:29/ Heb.9:27/ 1 Cor.15/..... Yet you may be talking about the Eturnal Kingdom context of heaven. in that case, the first resurrection takes place at the Beginnning of the Lord's day the second resurrection (and or death) takes places at the End of the Lord's day (1000 yrs). Prior to that we know that the spirit of believers are close to the LORD and conscience (Example Rev.6:10-11). Many get confussed cause they dont seperate the physical from the spiritual.
Gen.2:7 YHVH Elohim declares man consists of two things spirit and flesh (bodies). The terms used here are neshama (which relates spirit to character and breath). It and Ruach are used interchangablly and translated as Spirit in the OT of the Tanach( Example Gen.7:22/ Job.27:3 use both terms and yet are translated into the single word "spirit" in the english) ....So G-d breathed the neshama into the dust (flesh) and Man became a living soul (nephesh). Nephesh is to mention the Whole of a entity and is any living breathing thing. So from these Hebrew words what were we told here in "Genisis"? .....Well if a nephesh which is translated Soul and is any living breathing thing then is the Breath not a living breathing thing BEFORE it ever entered the flesh (dust?) YES! so by concept the ruach and or neshama is a nephesh before it ever entered the flesh but when it enters the flesh NOW man (spirit and flesh become a Soul (nephesh), yet at physical death (as documented above) the spirit steps out of the flesh and returns to the Father who gave it and the flesh returns to the ground from which it came.
When one understands both the phy and spiritual concepts they can now apply this to "soul sleep" remember Ecc is written to the man under the sun. So when we are speaking of the soul that is "man" /flesh/ then yes it is not aware of anthing cause intelect is spiritual (Jn 3/:8) The Spirit is like unto the WIND (breath/ air-phneuma/ Ruach/ Neshama). U cant see the wind but you can see its effects. What else do we Know exsists and meets this dicription??? Love, Hate, Intelect, FAITH- is the substance of things hoped for The Evidence of things UNSEEN (Heb.11:1). We are told the Kingdom of God is within you (in the midst of). We are told flesh and blood cant not inherit the kingdom of God. 1thess 4 was given to us so that we could comfort believers with the revelation of where are the dead (in Christ). Its not a mystery. God is not a God of the dead but a God of the living and at the tomb it was said why do you see the living among the dead?
1love

 

[krisbrian]

Nobody has come out of the grave yet, except Christ.

That is not totally true.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what about this? Notice he is coming WITH his saints.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH all his saints.

 

[Red33]

I truly feel sad for you all. You are basing your doctrine on a parable.

Carry on.

There is a lot more than a parable that this doctrine is based upon and you rationalize and reject all of them that have been referred and presented just to you. Any of these scriptures that establish the faith of the believer, who has the promise of eternal life, in being absent from the body and present with the Lord at death or concerning the (2) exceptions we have in scripture, you ascribe your own time frame and solicit out of context scriptures to do so.

For example: Recently you have used (Heb 11:5-13) concerning Enoch to support your belief that he was not translated to heaven but from place to place to avoid a confrontation with death but died later according to (v.13). You have lumped Enoch into the group of those that had died physically and concluded that Enoch also died. This is how you have rationalized these scriptures to fit your doctrine of soul-sleep. You have taken (v.13) and applied it to (v.5) and feel justified in doing so and with your conclusions. You have totally destroyed (v.5) and what it is actually saying about what happened to Enoch and the account of his life that was pleasing to God.

You have taken any sovereignty away from God to do as He pleases and sees fit through His own counsel and eternal purpose because it does not fit into your understanding and doctrine of soul-sleep. In a way that is turning the truth into a lie without knowing it. You are saying that God never translated him so that he would not see or experience death and you do the same with Elijah, who was taken to heaven that involved a chariot and horses of fire, a whirlwind and the testimony and first hand witnesses of Elisha and the sons of the prophet. This should make you pause, but instead, it only emboldens you to continue in your error.