Who desires all men to be saved! Let get along!!!

psychomom · Jan 28, 2013

Bookends, I have great respect for you, and so please see this as it is meant, which is as a question, and not an accusation?

If, in 1 Tim. 2:4 'all men' actually means ALL men, wouldn't that lead us to universalism?

For who thwarts the will of God? (Isaiah 14:27)
(I'm actually a bit confused at this point.

)
-ellie

rauleetoe · Jan 28, 2013

psychomom said:

I know the calvinist will say that All does not mean all, I guess that is why they say world does not mean world either. I had one smart alec response where somebody said i was implying that Paul and Barnabas swapped wives,because all means all, all the time..We all know Paul was single right? At least when he wrote the epistles from what i gather.
All does not mean universalism. We non calvinists say and beleive that the atonement was for ALL Men! They simply have to accept it, why do some not accept it? Because they love their sin, maybe because the christians they know are hypocrites and have been hurt by church or hate hypocrisy..maybe because they simply have not seen a true christian walking a true christian walk and all they see is religion. Just saying.
But no..all means all. It not just there..its also in 1 timothy 4:10-who is the savior of ALL men,especially those who believe.
Those who believe..those who accept his message. He will not turn any who accept his message away.
What part of that is hard to grasp?

Abiding · Jan 28, 2013

The bible has many many verses why men wont be saved. And why they are damned.
they are either false accusations or God wants man to be willing without His force.
Didnt the Holyspirit know the word some or some from each nation?

Didnt Jesus know it would have been easier for us to understand if He had said
raise me up and ill draw the elect only?

If Gods will is for man to be willing, howbeit He supplies the grace.
Then why would men being unwilling, in any way, be thwarting His will?

rauleetoe · Jan 28, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

I do think once again you are being insincere by implying that the 'other camp' is calling you heretics. Might i remind you it's heroes of your persuation like RC sproul who said arminians are 'hardly christian' and John Piper at one time said Arminians are not christian,then took that back when challenged about it.
So who is calling who a heretic again?

hmm?

rauleetoe · Jan 28, 2013

Abiding said:

God knows who will accept him and who will reject him.
That said, that is not him predestinating them. Remember it says in that verse in Romans, those who they foreknew(foreknowledge goes before predestination) he predestined..

God wants sincere relationship with him. That said, it can only be done if a man or woman truly has accepted the Lord and given their heart to God..and not because their arm was twisted.

Bookends · Jan 28, 2013

psychomom said:

I don't think it does because right after Paul says "God wishes all men to saved" he says the condition in which leads to salvation "to come to the knowledge of truth..." We know he is talking about the truth which is contained in the gospel. Universalist say that you don't have to know the this to be saved...

In order that "ALL men" to be just the church, you need the qualifier in the passage that assumes that is who Paul is talking about.

Is Isiah 14:27 talking about personal salvation? I'm not sure why you brought that up.

PS. and I also have a great respect for you...

Stephen63 · Jan 28, 2013

psychomom said:

No.
1 Timothy 2:4 [SUP]nasb [/SUP]who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 [SUP]nlt [/SUP]who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

King James strikes again!

Enow · Jan 28, 2013

psychomom said:

That reference was to declare that God has paid a ransom that is able to save all... and in keeping to the scripture... it is by believing in Him is how that ransom is received in order to be saved.

So if you were in jail and on death row when somebody informed you that someone outside is willing tp pay for your release and has the means to do so to pay for everybody's release, but you do not believe it, and thus you will not ask for it.

Incontext:

1 Timothy 2:1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [SUP]2 [/SUP]For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [SUP]4 [/SUP]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This was Paul way of justifying praying for all men, including those in authority as set forth in verse 1.[SUP]

5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [SUP]6 [/SUP]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not

a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Now this is about praying for all men that they may cone to the knowledge of the truth for which there is a need for a preacher to tell them the Good News so that they may believe and be saved.

Romans 10:[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; [SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [SUP]15 [/SUP]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So Jesus wasn't kidding about the condition of those not believing in Him as already condemned which is akin to sinners already being in jail on death row.

John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Abiding · Jan 28, 2013

reformed theology

Sproul Jr. tells in a book that we all follow our nature. Man and angels were created good, then the fall cant be from them.

The “culprit” (Sproul Jr.’s term) is God himself, who “introduced evil into this world” (p. 51). In fact, God acted according his strongest inclination; he acted on what he most wished to come to pass—as he always does (p. 54).

The reason he wanted Adam and Eve to fall into sin was because of God’s eternal attribute of wrath—and “God is as delighted with his wrath as he is with all of his attributes” (52). So in light of this eternal attribute of wrath, God must create objects of wrath: “What I’ll do is create something worthy of my wrath, something on which I can exhibit the glory of my wrath” (pp. 52-53)

“It was [God’s] desire to make his wrath known. He needed, then, something on which to be wrathful. He needed to have sinful creatures” (p. 57)

in his book Almighty Over All (Baker, 1999)

Abiding · Jan 28, 2013

So kids....thats why God doesnt will "all" men to be saved

psychomom · Jan 29, 2013

My thanks to each of you who responded to my post.

I am left, though, with this question...

is God's will immutable?

Tintin · Jan 29, 2013

Abiding, what? God didn't desire Adam and Eve to fall, he did allow it though.

Abiding · Jan 29, 2013

No Tintin the point is to not just fall into calvinism
they are no better at reading the bible as you are.
I know that was nutty wasnt it?

Abiding · Jan 29, 2013

psychomom said:

Of coarse He is. But our ideas or misunderstanding of what He has revealed
to us about His immutable will in no way obligates Him....Hi Ellie!

psychomom · Jan 29, 2013

Abiding said:

Hi, Abiding.

(and &#9829

I am specifically trying not to misunderstand Him.
I kinda think that to the extent that I do that, I am worshiping an idol.

(a not-God, if that makes sense.)

That's why the Timothy passage becomes difficult for me to understand.
If God's will is immutable...
and the verse says He wills (wants--same thing, right?) all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth...
and we accept all men as all men...

doesn't that lead us to universalism?

I'm sorry for being obtuse, but I don't see it yet.
Thanks, everyone, for your patience.

Cobus · Jan 29, 2013

God wants (will have) all men to be saved..... Hammer on one verse, but complete the verse.... AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.... But do they all come to the knowledge of the Truth? NO not all men do? Why? Why do not all men come to be saved and to the knowledge of the Truth? Even if it is God's will that they do?

Here is the verse that says who does NOT come to the knowledge of the Truth or to be saved.... John 14:17..Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

See the "world" CANNOT receive the Spirit of Truth, so they will not know the Truth and be made free. Only the ones NOT OF THE WORLD can receive this Spirit, and salvation. So my advice is...Get to know and SEE HIM.
1 John 3:6... The "world" REMAIN in their sin.....
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Abiding · Jan 29, 2013

psychomom said:

Ellie, some will say that man does not have a choice in his salvation. Thats where the trouble
starts...then you have to run around the bible and switch all the meanings and words around.

What is so dishonorable about God wanting man to exercise the will He created them with.
Isnt that how it was from the beginning. And unfortunatly led to the fall, yet out of that a even
more glorious creation.

Take this text for instance: [SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, And ye would not![SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Does it seem to make more sense to people that because Gods in total charge and has
all power that He has a ego trip? And even tho it seems at times we are going through
hell no worries He will zap you because He is all powerful and noone can tell Him no.
Well Israel did. And there dust now.....after there many many years of killing the prophets
and whoring on Him, breaking His commandments, and making Him get laughed at.

Opps sorry this could easily be something i could write for weeks im sure giving examples
all through scripture from Cains pep talk from God asll through the Old Testament He called
and called and was patient and longsufferring and every mercyful to a stiffnecked people.
Does that sound like He did all His will? Since you cant say He didnt have His way, then
you have to accept the clear written word that teaches man had a will and God wanted His
willingness.

Why did Jesus say seek, knock ,and ask? Why did He say if any man thirst come to me?
Why did He say if any labor and heavy laden and need rest come unto me? Why the hundreds
of pleas throughout the bible...when He could just force His will on us?

Id rekon youl have to say His will is that all men be saved through the plan of redemption
He designed. And that is a gift, He offered Himself. He wants our will. We can go into the
mechanics of salvation later. If you dont see that man has a choice then youl have to study
up on your theology and get out your eraser and magic markers

Question? What good does it do to change the word meaning "all" to mean all kinds of men
in all parts of the world. These people are zapped and made to love God. You know your
gona be left with His immutable will willing the majority of the rest to be damned. And according
to a giant name in Calvinist the whole reason is that God wants to show His wrath.

Does it appear that God is showing His wrath? Or is He longsufferring and patient with the vessels
of destruction, that not one would perish. Oh He could show us how tough He is real easy....but the cross was what He really
demonstrated. If God had any need, He wouldnt be God.

So to cut this short....i say God desire that all men be saved. Noone doubts His power here but what about
His love? Why the foolishness of preaching? He wants our willingness thats why. And for that reason All men
wont be saved and at the same time all things will work out for His good will and pleasure because all that
did have a willingness will be saved. The way He wanted it. And those who reject Him will be damned.

Last thing Timothy doesnt say or imply that God is or is going to exercise His will over men
in order to save them all. And the question about a truth is the bible leading to error is just a lame
arguement ...such as leading to universalism....to me its just a petty tactic from the freewilly/calvinist debate.
you cant edit the bible till crazy false teachers go out of business.

Tommy4Christ · Jan 29, 2013

The LORD takes pleasure in those that fear him!
Psa 147:11 The LORD takes pleasure in those that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.
The fear of the Lord is downplayed in Christian circles today, and many will take offense when you tell them to repent, stop sinning, and seek the mercy of God through fear, respect, awe, and reverence of His awesome power over sin, temptation and the devil!
Now this fear can be taken in and out of context:
H3372
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
A primitive root; to fear; morally to revere; causatively to frighten: - affright, be (make) afraid, dread (-ful), (put in) fear (-ful, -fully, -ing). (be had in) reverence (-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).
So in one way the fear of the Lord causes the broken soul to fall on their face before His majesty, in humble repentance, a real and genuine repentance that cannot be faked or mistaken for the weak confess and believe message being sold by the truck loads throughout the apostate system of lies!
The Lord takes pleasure in those who humbly fear Him, and His great power to send them into perdition unless they respect this fear, which is not the fear of a daunting parent who scolds their wayward child one minute, than overlooks their continued disobedience.
The fear of God doesn’t wink at sin and disobedience! It causes a true repentant soul to tremble at His awe and power, never take His mercy and grace in vain, by assuming He overlooks sin and disobedience.
His mercy and grace is selective and only goes out to the one who has forsaken their evil ways and thoughts, and have come to the mercy seat, not taking this mercy for granted.
To fear God is to love God, and never assume anything from Him, as we deny ungodliness and worldly lusts of the flesh, then live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age!
Psa 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
Tommy

Abiding · Jan 29, 2013

God is not the author of fear: that word fear means to be timid.
So we come before Him boldly for grace and mercy.

And the list that goes into the lake of fire one category is the fearful
that goes along with the parable talking of the man who buried his talent

So yes ty for pointing out that fear has different meanings. God Loves those
who revere and Honor Him , and yes not just lip service.

mark54 · Jan 29, 2013

Tommy4Christ said:

While we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

Tommy, how can those yet without strength forsake their evil ways and thoughts so they may reveice God's grace?

Hoe can those without strength forsake all of their evil ways in order to receibe grace?

Doesn't grace have to come first?

Would a loving parent expect their newborn infant to act perfectly?

Would they expect a baby to walk to the shops and help carry the food home?

Or would they lovingly nurture them, step by step until they had grown enough to be asked to take on responsibility.

Does a parent expect the infant to do the work? Or does the parent lovingly care for their needs until they start to grow?

If a child could reason when they were born, wouldn't they have to trust their parent for their needs, or rely on themself?

Who desires all men to be saved! Let get along!!!

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