Who has the right to be called a Jew?

[DJ2]

It absolutely was physical according to the flesh. What Romans 9 is pointing out is the specific seed line of Christ.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Though Ishmael came from Abraham, he was not counted as a son, but Isaac was the son of promise. The Fathers of the nation of Israel are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's the line of a true Jew.

I cannot believe how many on this forum are implying that the blood line of the Jews was of no concern. It is not a concern now since the line was physically broken but surely it was of great importance during the time of the New Testament.

 

[graceNpeace]

There are many on this thread that claim that Jews are descended from the TRIBE of Judah only - this is incorrect!

Jews are descendants of the KINGDOM of Judah, which comprised of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Benjamin, and the some of the tribe of Levi.
Even though this Kingdom was also eventually taken into captivity, after the Kingdom of Israel, the remnants of the Kingdom of Judah returned from captivity as a discrete people, unlike the Kingdom of Israel, whose people were assimilated.

As an example, Paul, originally Saul, was of the tribe of Benjamin (Phil 3:5).

 

[garee]

Would Jesus consider those who claim to be Jewish today as truly Jewish? It is understood that the Samaritans were not Jewish because of their mixed lineage, hence the exchange between Jesus and the woman at the well.

Can those today who are labeled as Jewish claim a lineage any better then the Samaritans?

I would offer God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying the hearts of both by a work of His faith.

Acts 15:9 King James Version (KJV) And put nodifference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Two generations, two genesis’s or beginnings.One in respect to the generation of Adam as in all die .And the other inrespect to the generation of the incorruptible seed of Christ as in are bornagain from above.

I would offer the lineage is not after the fleshof any nation but is after the incorruptible seed of His living, abiding word. The linage found in Mathew (the generation of Christ not seen) not Luke( the generation of men as that seen).

God defines a Jew as one born again inwardly. In thatway the new name he named us (Christian) came from the word Jew or Israel .(onethat wrestles with God and man and overcomes)

Romans2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither isthat circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

When a multitude of nations gathered together in the book of Revelation some wereas it seems calling an outward Jew, a Jew. Not all carnal Jews are inward Jews born of the Spirit of Christ just asin the same way not Israel is born again Israel

Revelation2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (butthou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, andare not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan,which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them tocome and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Noose]

It absolutely was physical according to the flesh. What Romans 9 is pointing out is the specific seed line of Christ.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Though Ishmael came from Abraham, he was not counted as a son, but Isaac was the son of promise. The Fathers of the nation of Israel are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's the line of a true Jew.

This is oversimplification of Paul's words. Paul said all these because he actually meant that Israel is not a physical Israel- the larger context is that he wants to convince Romans to accept the call hence he starts with the broader, error-nous and materialistic explanation of what people often think to be Israel but then narrows down to what Israel really means spiritually. In summary, Paul says Israel are not fleshly descendants of Abraham or Isaac or even Jacob, he was telling the Romans that if they believe, they'd become part of the spiritual Israel.

It is not normal for one to go to Africa to talk about being Asian to convince them about anything, but it is ok to say that race is nothing and that they are one.

 

[Shamah]

Would Jesus consider those who claim to be Jewish today as truly Jewish? It is understood that the Samaritans were not Jewish because of their mixed lineage, hence the exchange between Jesus and the woman at the well.

Can those today who are labeled as Jewish claim a lineage any better then the Samaritans?

The term "Jew" and "Jewis" is used in a few different ways, as a blood line, as a convert to Judaisim, and as the nation of Israyl.

A Jew or Yehudi is truly one of the tribe of Judah/Yehudah, that consistis of 1 of the 12 tribes. Nothing can change one blood line, either they are or they are not blood Israyl.

Now there can be converts to Israyl and they are to be treated as a native:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

This does not replace those that are blood but grafts them in.

A Samaritian is not a Jew nor a blood line Israylite, yet they can be grafted in just as all gentiles can.

Being blood line Israyl does not make anyone better but in reality come with great responsibility, the same responsibility that greafted in Gentiles have, to be a light to the nations.

Also I want to mention YHWH has not forgotten the Jews or the lost tribes of Israyl... Yah says He has a remnant and will call them...


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[Nehemiah6]

There's not going to be a revival for circumcised Jews at any given moment- the 144k are believers from all tribes and nations that are being referred to as 'real Jews' based on the definition of a Jew (Rom 2:28).

Christians are not permitted to make up things on a whim. Since God has clearly spelled out the 12 twelve tribes in Revelation 7 we should respect that and take it as Divine revelation. And to ensure that we don't get confused, God shows us the twelve tribes as being distinct from the Church in the very same chapter.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there weresealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9)

As you can see there is absolutely no reason to confuse one group with the other.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your logic is wrong...you count lineage by blood ties. God counts the faithful heart.

That does not mean that God is finished with the twelve tribes of Israel. Why are Christians not content to believe that God has an eternal plan for a redeemed and restore Israel on earth at the same time as He has an eternal plan for the Church residing in the New Jerusalem? Why do we need to limit God, when Scripture confirms that both things are true?

 

[Adstar]

Without genealogy records going all of the way back no one can know if they've descended from converts. Those records don't exist.

God knows without needing those records..

 

[Ariel82]

The promise is made to Abraham and His Seed, meaning Jesus, not seeds.

I would rather people not try and make God a liar and place claims He never promised to His account.

God fulfilled His promises to the nation of Israel.he gave them blessings and curses. He sent them a Redeemer.

There is only one way anyone can be saved: faith in Jesus.
To teach anything else is wrong. (not saying you are,just reinforcing this biblical truth)

 

[John146]

This is oversimplification of Paul's words. Paul said all these because he actually meant that Israel is not a physical Israel- the larger context is that he wants to convince Romans to accept the call hence he starts with the broader, error-nous and materialistic explanation of what people often think to be Israel but then narrows down to what Israel really means spiritually. In summary, Paul says Israel are not fleshly descendants of Abraham or Isaac or even Jacob, he was telling the Romans that if they believe, they'd become part of the spiritual Israel.

It is not normal for one to go to Africa to talk about being Asian to convince them about anything, but it is ok to say that race is nothing and that they are one.

Paul makes a clear distinction between being a Jew and being a member of Christ's body, the church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Oversimplification? God has not made this thing difficult to understand.

 

[Noose]

Christians are not permitted to make up things on a whim. Since God has clearly spelled out the 12 twelve tribes in Revelation 7 we should respect that and take it as Divine revelation. And to ensure that we don't get confused, God shows us the twelve tribes as being distinct from the Church in the very same chapter.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there weresealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Rev 7:4)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (Rev 7:9)

As you can see there is absolutely no reason to confuse one group with the other.

You misunderstand and misinterpret the scriptures. The 144k Jews are not Jews by blood but by faith just like God has defined who a Jew is in Rom 2. The 144k, as much as are referred metaphorically to be from the 12 tribes of Israel, they are actually from every nation and tribe as is indicated here:

Rev 14:
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


They are redeemed from the Earth (not Israel) and they were purchased from among mankind (Not Jews). These are also the ones called church of Philadelphia which the Lord shall shelve from the great tribulation- the rest of the believers will be killed. Again, these 144k are the ones that form the new Jerusalem/ the temple of God here on earth.

 

[Noose]

Paul makes a clear distinction between being a Jew and being a member of Christ's body, the church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Oversimplification? God has not made this thing difficult to understand.

You can not just pick anything that mentions Jews and church to justify your erroneous position, the whole of that chapter is talking about idol worship and in verse 32, Paul was emphasizing that we should not wrong anyone despite their racial or religious history- but he mentions Jews/gentiles all being in the body of Christ. Paul did not give the Jews a special status, a position you are trying to justify with no success.

 

[garee]

Paul makes a clear distinction between being a Jew and being a member of Christ's body, the church of God.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Oversimplification? God has not made this thing difficult to understand.

Yes he brings together all three as if one bride of Christ, the church to protect his wife.

God is no respecter of people/ nations. He simply is not served by human hands as if he who has no needs but satisfies all, needed something from the clay he is forming Christ in.

Yes a born again Jew as one inwardly not according to the flesh outwardly. We are informed if any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him.

God puts no difference between a born again Jew and a born again Gentile purifying both by a work of His faith or labor of his love that he works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure (imputed righteousness) .


Acts 15 King James Version (KJV)7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The faith of God not the imagination of the heart of natural man

​

 

[John146]

You can not just pick anything that mentions Jews and church to justify your erroneous position, the whole of that chapter is talking about idol worship and in verse 32, Paul was emphasizing that we should not wrong anyone despite their racial or religious history- but he mentions Jews/gentiles all being in the body of Christ. Paul did not give the Jews a special status, a position you are trying to justify with no success.

Actually, the context is "give none offense." As a believer, we have liberties within the body of Christ, but we should not participate in those liberties if it may offend a Jew, a Gentile or another member of weak faith within the body of Christ. That's the context.

Scripture makes three clear distinctions of people groups: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. There is just not Scriptural evidence of replacement theology. None.

 

[Noose]

Actually, the context is "give none offense." As a believer, we have liberties within the body of Christ, but we should not participate in those liberties if it may offend a Jew, a Gentile or another member of weak faith within the body of Christ. That's the context.

Scripture makes three clear distinctions of people groups: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. There is just not Scriptural evidence of replacement theology. None.

Yes the context should drive your understanding- those different groups who became one in Christ had weak conscience because of their original belief systems and that's what Paul was emphasizing here. Paul was saying that the stronger Christians should not offend those of weak conscience, nothing to suggest that Jews have a special status.

In the body of Christ, this is what applies:
Gal 3:27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[John146]

Yes the context should drive your understanding- those different groups who became one in Christ had weak conscience because of their original belief systems and that's what Paul was emphasizing here. Paul was saying that the stronger Christians should not offend those of weak conscience, nothing to suggest that Jews have a special status.

In the body of Christ, this is what applies:
Gal 3:27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The three clear distinctions that Paul makes:

1. the church of God made up of former Jews and Gentiles
2. Jews according to the flesh
3. Gentiles according to the flesh

 

[PennEd]

You are not making sense. He called her a Samaritan because she was not Jewish. The Berean Jews were simply Jews who lived in Berea, nothing more.

Don't take my word for it. Search the scriptures for yourself!

Acts 17:13 Now when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was being proclaimed by Paul in Berea they came there to stirring up trouble and agitating the crowd against him.

Now are these Jews from Thessalonica counted as having a faithful heart?

The Samaritans were a mixed race, they were not fully Jewish, but they did have Jewish blood.

Ariel is right about Ruth. She was a gentile "grafted in" by marriage (kinda like we are to Christ) to Boaz. Why would Boaz (in Jesus' lineage) marry a GENTILE bride?
Well, Boaz' mother was a GENTILE woman, Rahab the harlot! In fact, there are several GENTILES in Jesus genealogy.

Who has a right to be called a Jew?
Jesus tells in John 1:11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them, He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

BUT, this situation for the Jews IS NOT PERMANENT!

Romans 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be IGNORANT of this mystery, lest you should be wise IN YOUR OWN OPINION, that blindness ​IN PART has happened to Israel ​UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[garee]

Actually, the context is "give none offense." As a believer, we have liberties within the body of Christ, but we should not participate in those liberties if it may offend a Jew, a Gentile or another member of weak faith within the body of Christ. That's the context.

Scripture makes three clear distinctions of people groups: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. There is just not Scriptural evidence of replacement theology. None.

God puts no difference between a born again inward Jew, according to the Spirit of the Word, than he would to a born again inward born of the Spirit of Christ, Gentile. He purifies the hearts both giving them a new heart to believe God and not after the imaginations of the old hard heart, that resisted his rest. In the book of Job we are informed He softens our hearts. I would think with the water of the word .

 

[Exegete]

The OP asked "would Jesus consider those who claim to be Jewish today as truly Jewish?"

Personally, I don't think Christ sees anyone by the labels we put on ourselves - despite our lineage. For example, I'm considered American because I was born here. Does that make someone from Mexico (who is here illegally) an American as well because that is the label they choose to apply?

In Romans 11 Paul writes of those who have been "grafted in to the Olive tree", meaning that those not of the house of Israel can experience the inheritance and salvation that God provides. And as has been already pointed out in other posts, that we are all "Sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:26) and in that faith there is no distinction between "Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female" Why? because we "are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:28).

Having said this, I am wondering why the question in the OP is even important? Toward the end of Romans 11 Paul writes "Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" I don't know how Jesus see those who claim to be Jewish today except to say that he is looking "for everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

 

[Noose]

The three clear distinctions that Paul makes:

1. the church of God made up of former Jews and Gentiles
2. Jews according to the flesh
3. Gentiles according to the flesh

There's no such thing as a former Jew racially speaking because you can not undo a race that you are born in; spiritually speaking, there's only a Jew which means a believer and a gentile which means a non believer.