Who is the tree?
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Personally I believe that the scriptures say that all people have been represented in Christ's death on the cross. Not all are saved.
We must believe and receive the grace of God shown in Christ and the gift of righteousness in order to be saved. Rom. 5:17 There is no doubt that Christ's death on the cross included everyone in the earth. Everyone is included in Christ's work but again - that doesn't mean that all are saved. 2 Cor. 5:14-15 & Romans 5:15-19
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
As far as John 15 goes. There are a few schools of thought. 1) It is for fruit bearing only - not for salvation as in being with the Lord for eternity. 2) people lose their salvation ( I don't believe this view for a second as it contradicts the very clear abundance of Jesus' words )
3) is what I currently am looking at which is below because all are included in Christ's work on the cross but some believe and some don't. The 2 thieves crucified with Christ are a picture of all of humanity dying with Christ.
Those not abiding in the Vine which means to me - believing and receiving Christ's work by grace through faith - they will be cut off and burned by the fire of the love of God because the sin of unbelief is still on them.
We must believe and receive the grace of God shown in Christ and the gift of righteousness in order to be saved. Rom. 5:17 There is no doubt that Christ's death on the cross included everyone in the earth. Everyone is included in Christ's work but again - that doesn't mean that all are saved. 2 Cor. 5:14-15 & Romans 5:15-19
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
As far as John 15 goes. There are a few schools of thought. 1) It is for fruit bearing only - not for salvation as in being with the Lord for eternity. 2) people lose their salvation ( I don't believe this view for a second as it contradicts the very clear abundance of Jesus' words )
3) is what I currently am looking at which is below because all are included in Christ's work on the cross but some believe and some don't. The 2 thieves crucified with Christ are a picture of all of humanity dying with Christ.
Those not abiding in the Vine which means to me - believing and receiving Christ's work by grace through faith - they will be cut off and burned by the fire of the love of God because the sin of unbelief is still on them.
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The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now, apart from the Law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets—
Rom 3:22 God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah—for all who believe. For there is no distinction among people,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Father...attributes the righteousness to us. Through His Son. He is the one who cuts off the branches and purges others. We, the church or the body of Christ, are the purged. Those who continue in unbelief, no matter who or what nation they are of...will be cut off.
We are purged of the old man.
You guys aren't seeing this right.
Rom 3:21 But now, apart from the Law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets—
Rom 3:22 God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah—for all who believe. For there is no distinction among people,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Father...attributes the righteousness to us. Through His Son. He is the one who cuts off the branches and purges others. We, the church or the body of Christ, are the purged. Those who continue in unbelief, no matter who or what nation they are of...will be cut off.
We are purged of the old man.
You guys aren't seeing this right.
kjv says it this way
John 15:1-11 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I AM the vine, YE ARE the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."
The revelation is found in the rest of the context to be honest. 9 of ten reject the truth of obedience to God, Keeping the word of Christ His only begotten son is what keeps a person in him. when you consider what hes been talking about here since chapter 14 it doesnt need any special revelation just faith which so many lack.
john 14:15-26 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I AM IN MY FATHER, and YE IN ME, AND I IN YOU. << this is no different from the vine and the branch saying Jesus is One with God, we are called to be one with Christ making us one with God
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.<<<very plain then judas asks " whats the difference in us and the world?
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.<<<Jesus tells him plainly again
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I HAVE SAID unto you."
its all about the real Gospel, those things taught By Jesus to His disciples its not a mystery it is just rejected by so many false doctrines that seek to make the Word irrelevant. from the begoinning God has been saying Hear my word and keep those things do those things and you will live, reject them and you will not. that is no different than the branch that is cast away for no fruit, the reason is the rejection of the word of God it has never changed. its Just that in Christ we dont have an excuse anymore to not obey God. everything comes back to the simplest truth that seemingly 9 of ten reject completely
james 1:21-22 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.<<< this will never change no matter how many different ideas are invented or "revolutions" of the gospel supposedly happen from adam to revelation this is an unchanging priniciple those who hear God, and obey Him will understand those who spend thier time explaining why thats not possible, or why things have changed, why thats " self righteous works of the Law" will always come up with ideas why it doesnt apply. its a deception though.
God is the gardener, Jesus the vine, we are branches coming from the vine IF we abide in Him in His word
Before the Cross...the Israelites were cut off...is true. After the Cross...the world has been saved. No distinction of nations.
I didn't say believers were cut off eternal. I say we are secure because the Vine holds us securely. Its what I saw.
Only those who continue in unbelief are cut off. We are again...purged. Do a study on the word purge, purged.
I didn't say believers were cut off eternal. I say we are secure because the Vine holds us securely. Its what I saw.
Only those who continue in unbelief are cut off. We are again...purged. Do a study on the word purge, purged.
I believe the 2 thieves on the cross crucified with Jesus is a picture of all being included in Christ's death but one believed and the other didn't.
The thief that said to Jesus "Lord remember me". - he abided or remained in Christ/The Vine and is with Jesus to this day.
There is a vast difference between universal atonement and universalism. Universalism says that all dogs go to be with the Lord - I don't believe that the scriptures teach that for a second.
The thief that said to Jesus "Lord remember me". - he abided or remained in Christ/The Vine and is with Jesus to this day.
There is a vast difference between universal atonement and universalism. Universalism says that all dogs go to be with the Lord - I don't believe that the scriptures teach that for a second.
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Romans 11 shows a distinction, Paul said after the cross that the natural branches in unbelief were cut off. and the unnatural branches were grafted in, but the unnatural branches should not boast.. (speaking of the nation of Israel vs gentiles)
Purge means to life up off the ground.. It is a good study,, I did it once before many years ago..
Purge means to life up off the ground.. It is a good study,, I did it once before many years ago..