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You didn't post anything that says there one being who consists of three persons. I've already explained how Christian understood the Trinity for the first 300 + years and it wasn't that there is one being that consists of three persons. That is a logical contradiction. And, yes, it is about logic. God made man and gave him a mind. God created logic and God is logical therefore there is no contradiction in God, thus no contradiction in the Trinity. However, the man made doctrine of one being consisting of three person is a logical contradiction thus it is not of God
Your first response to this question is going to be, "He was praying to God, obviously, who else?" So I know this sounds like an odd question, but I mean it from a completely different angle than you might have thought.
Consider this for a second here... really...
We as Christians believe (by majority, and myself included) that Jesus is God.
Yet Jesus prayed to God, and even asked God for His will instead of his own in Luke 22:42!
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." ---Luke 22:42
So basically, according to this verse, Jesus is praying to his God, and asking for his separate and higher will. Yet Jesus is supposed to be God in my book! If Jesus is God, then why is He praying to God? Is He praying to Himself? And why is he asking God for His separate and higher will, yet not his own, if he is God?
If one thing is made painfully clear from this verse, it is that Jesus believed the person he was talking to to be greater, higher, and wiser than Himself - as well as possessing a separate and higher will altogether. But I believe that Jesus is God, so how can I reconcile my belief with the verse which seems to refute it.
Is Jesus talking to himself? The more I read it the verse, the more my belief in the Trinity seems to look less and less Biblical. Note that I am not trying to refute the belief in the Trinity here, but this is the one verse in the Bible that shakes my faith in it's scriptural authenticity. Either Jesus was talking to Himself and experiencing a split personality, or He was talking to Someone else. What's going on in this verse? Who was He talking to? It's obviously not Himself because the Entity has a separate opinion (according to Jesus), yet it has to be Himself because Jesus is God and there's no one else to pray to.
Now my mind is fried...
Consider this for a second here... really...
We as Christians believe (by majority, and myself included) that Jesus is God.
Yet Jesus prayed to God, and even asked God for His will instead of his own in Luke 22:42!
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." ---Luke 22:42
So basically, according to this verse, Jesus is praying to his God, and asking for his separate and higher will. Yet Jesus is supposed to be God in my book! If Jesus is God, then why is He praying to God? Is He praying to Himself? And why is he asking God for His separate and higher will, yet not his own, if he is God?
If one thing is made painfully clear from this verse, it is that Jesus believed the person he was talking to to be greater, higher, and wiser than Himself - as well as possessing a separate and higher will altogether. But I believe that Jesus is God, so how can I reconcile my belief with the verse which seems to refute it.
Is Jesus talking to himself? The more I read it the verse, the more my belief in the Trinity seems to look less and less Biblical. Note that I am not trying to refute the belief in the Trinity here, but this is the one verse in the Bible that shakes my faith in it's scriptural authenticity. Either Jesus was talking to Himself and experiencing a split personality, or He was talking to Someone else. What's going on in this verse? Who was He talking to? It's obviously not Himself because the Entity has a separate opinion (according to Jesus), yet it has to be Himself because Jesus is God and there's no one else to pray to.
Now my mind is fried...
It is amazing to me when Christians cannot give a direct answer to this dilema!! JESUS was praying to ABBA(YAHWEH) because JESUS lift up his voice crying out in the wilderness because DEATH was at his feet. I truly hope folks will do a research on the word TRINITY because they might be surprise the foundation of its history, but then again folks have been indoctrinated by man's philosophy, ideology, perspectives and deity culture from Rome. JESUS has taught me how to go direct to ABBA in prayer. The answer will always be the GODhead which still do not make spiritual sense to me.
in·doc·tri·nate
verb \in-ˈdäk-trə-ˌnāt\: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs
transitive verb
1
: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
2
: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
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Iv'e already explained it in my post to Elijah 19. The problem is too many are not willing to consider anything other than what they already believe. Rather than consider something they haven't heard their more will to hold on to the logical contradiction.
I've already given Paul's words, 'for us there is one God the Father.' Do you believe the apostle?
T
How could the Son of God die? How could He be separated from a perfect union with His Father and Holy Spirit? How could God take on the sins of the world, even though He hated sin and wouldn't let it in His sight? How could a dead man rise to new life? How could Jesus ascend to Heaven, fully God but fully man? It's a great mystery for our minds to comprehend, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
The NT says it in the following (see #2):
1) Redemption is a function of divinity.
The NT shows three separate divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the work of redemption/salvation:
a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry
(Mt 3:16-17),
b) the Holy Spirit completing the Father's work of redemption through the Son [Ac 2:38-39; Ro 8 (v.26); 1Co 12:4-13 (vv.4-6); Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2];
c) the nly way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15 (vv.5,14-15).
2) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of God.
a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the one God with whom we enter into relationship.
b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.
3) The close connection in the NT between Father, Son and Holy Spirit show a co-equal relationship:
Paul says "the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit" (2Co 3:16-18), meaning the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Jesus not only works in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings.
To express that Christ worked through Paul, he would never say, "The Lord is Paul."
So Paul bears witness to the Spirit's place in the Godhead.
4) The NT shows the Holy Spirit to be a person.
It refers to him with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows him acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).
5) To believe God is Three-In-One is not to violate the word of the OT.
The OT forbid worship of false gods--gods other than, apart from or outside YHWH.
The Son and Holy Spirit are not other than, apart from or outside YHWH any more than his Word (Jn 1:1, 14, 18) or his breath are other than, part from or outside YHWH (Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 32:8, 33:4, 34:14-15; Ps 33:6).
1) Redemption is a function of divinity.
The NT shows three separate divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the work of redemption/salvation:
a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry
(Mt 3:16-17),
b) the Holy Spirit completing the Father's work of redemption through the Son [Ac 2:38-39; Ro 8 (v.26); 1Co 12:4-13 (vv.4-6); Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2];
c) the nly way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15 (vv.5,14-15).
2) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of God.
a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the one God with whom we enter into relationship.
b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.
3) The close connection in the NT between Father, Son and Holy Spirit show a co-equal relationship:
Paul says "the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit" (2Co 3:16-18), meaning the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Jesus not only works in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings.
To express that Christ worked through Paul, he would never say, "The Lord is Paul."
So Paul bears witness to the Spirit's place in the Godhead.
4) The NT shows the Holy Spirit to be a person.
It refers to him with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows him acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).
5) To believe God is Three-In-One is not to violate the word of the OT.
The OT forbid worship of false gods--gods other than, apart from or outside YHWH.
The Son and Holy Spirit are not other than, apart from or outside YHWH any more than his Word (Jn 1:1, 14, 18) or his breath are other than, part from or outside YHWH (Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 32:8, 33:4, 34:14-15; Ps 33:6).
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You still haven't shown me where Scripture says there is one being that consists of three persons.
There's no need for you to post stuff like this. I have heard the arguments of men before. What I stated in my original post acknowledges that Jesus is God (Deity). What it denies is the logical contradiction that is presented by many today that there is one being that consists of three persons. You won't find that anywhere in the Scriptures. It comes from the mind of man.
There's no need for you to post stuff like this. I have heard the arguments of men before. What I stated in my original post acknowledges that Jesus is God (Deity). What it denies is the logical contradiction that is presented by many today that there is one being that consists of three persons. You won't find that anywhere in the Scriptures. It comes from the mind of man.
T
I did answer your question. What I said and what you asked both are incomprehensible to the human mind. But they're both true, according to the Bible. Also, something can be a mystery and still be understood, just not fully. For example, we understand the nature of God, but we don't understand Him fully. We can understand the nature of grace, but we don't understand it fully. And so on. It's not a contradiction at all. God doesn't contradict Himself.
They're incomprehensible because they are a contradiction, not because there are a mystery. The Trinity is understandable when one understands it correctly, however, the idea of one being consisting of three persons is not the Trinity that was taught in the beginning, it's a later error. Likewise one cannot be 100% of two different things. If I am 100% man, I can't be anything else or I'm not 100% man. Jesus was 100% man after the incarnation.
I didn't say a mystery wasn't true. I asked how do you know it's true?
I didn't say a mystery wasn't true. I asked how do you know it's true?
K
Jesus accepts worship only God can do that and not sin, and He gives command to nature etc... Just because the word trinity isn't in the Bible explicity stated doesn't mean you cannot see it in action. Alot of theology isn't specifically termed in the scriptures yet we believe it.
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. [SUP]2 [/SUP]There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you really know me, you will know[SUP][b][/SUP] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
pretty evident right there....
You see a distinction even in the creation account and also in John's rendering it in John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[SUP][a][/SUP] it.
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. [SUP]2 [/SUP]There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you really know me, you will know[SUP][b][/SUP] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
pretty evident right there....
You see a distinction even in the creation account and also in John's rendering it in John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[SUP][a][/SUP] it.
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