Who was Jesus Praying to in the Bible?

[Elin]

Logic does. The idea you are present is confusion, yet God is not a God of confusion. Look, the Scriptures don't speak out and say, I mean this, or, no, you're understanding that incorrectly. Every person who reads the Scriptures must interpret the Scriptures. Everyone who interprets the Scriptures comes to the Scriptures presuppositions. They already have certain beliefs before they ever approach the Scriptures. Those beliefs influence the way they understand the Scriptures. So, one comes to the Scriptures already believing that there is one being that consists of three beings, they impose that on the text.

The reason I keep asking you for Scripture that shows one being consists of three persons is that I hole you'll realize that
Scripture doesn't say that and that it's a presupposition. Once we realize our presuppositions we're in a better position examine them.

So then "God exists" is a presupposition, because there is no such statement in all of Scripture.

You're over rationalizing this.

So, I've asked for
Scripture showing that there is one being that consists of three persons and there is none. On the other hand I've presented Scripture that needs no interpretation, it is a plain statement. Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father.' Jesus said when praying to the Father, ;that they may know you, the only true God.' Again, a plain statement.

"Agreed. . .and Scripture also does not say "God is sovereign,"
nor does it say the nature of sonship to God is "relationship,"
but it reveals it nonetheless.

But it doesn't. You may believe it does because of the way you are interpreting certain passages of Scripture.
Your statement, "it reveals it" is based on the assumption that your understanding of those passages is correct.

Just as I take the existence of God from the plain meaning of Scripture,
so I take the sovereignty of God from the same, as in:

"All the people of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?' " (Da 4:35)
God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel. (Da 1:9)

"The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD,
he directs it like a watercourse, wherever he pleases. . . (Pr 21:1)

". . .having been predestined according to the plan of
him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." (Eph 1:4-12)

". . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (Ac 13:38)

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad
--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: (i.e.) not by works but by him who calls--
she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' " (Ro 9:14-29)

"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose. . ." (Rev 17:17)

"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;" (Ac 2:23)

"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." (Ac 4:28)

"The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." (Lk 22:22)

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. . .
and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he
justified, he also glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)

"Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in." (Ro 11:25-34)

"From the beginning God chose you to be saved. . ." (2Th 2:13)

"God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1Pe 1:2)

"God, who put it into the heart of Titus. . ." (2Co 8:16)

"I have kept you from sinning against me. . ." (Ge 20:6)

"I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward his people. . ." (Ex 4:21)

"This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven." (Dt 2:25, 30)

"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel." (Jos 11:20)

"God changed Saul's heart. . ." (1Sa 10:9)

"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm. . .
--everyone whose heart God had moved--prepasred to go up. . .
the God of our fathers, who has put it into the king's heart to bring honor. . .(Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27)

"I had not told anyone what God had put in my heart. . .
My God put it into my heart. . ." (Ne 2:12, 7:5)

". . .whose hearts he turned to hate his people," (Ps 105:25)
"He caused them to be pitied by all who held them captive." (Ps 106:46)

"In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps." (Pr 16:9)
"Many are the plans of a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails." (Pr 19:21)
"A man's steps are directed by the LORD." (Pr 20:24)

You argue with the plain meaning of Scripture because it does not agree with your theology.
I will not be arguing the abundantly plain meaning of God's sovereignty in these Scriptures.

 

[Elin]

.
PART II:

I find three personal divine agents in the Scriptures.

The NT shows the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be persons.
It refers to them with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows the Holy Spirit acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).

And I find one God in the Scriptures.

You do the math.

Yet, your understanding of those passages brings you to a conclusion that is illogical.
God created all things and logic is one of those things.
He gave man a mind to reason with so that man could communicate with Him. . .

If I told you that I consisted of three persons you'd probably argue that I wasn't that it is impossible, why? Because you know that
a person cannot be three different People, it's a contradiction.

First of all, it has nothing to do with logic, so "illogical" or "contradictory" do not apply.

It is a matter of ontology.

Secondly, God did not give us "ontology," those notions are from the mind of man.

That three persons in one God, the revealed notion of God, does not conform to
the ontological notion of man is irrelevant.

Again, it goes back to how one interprets that Scriptures and what presuppositions they bring to the text.

According to you, God doesn't exist because there is no text which states, "God exists."

According to you, God isn't sovereign because there is no text which states, "God is sovereign."

That demonstratedly false rule is your own unbiblical notion.

Your whole gig on the Trinity has nothing to do with Scripture nor logic.

 

[Butch5]

So then "God exists" is a presupposition, because there is no such statement in all of Scripture.

Not at all. Scripture says, "in the beginning God", His existence is stated in the first verse of the Bible

You're over rationalizing this.

I'm not over analyzing it, I'm simply not accepting something that simply cannot be possible. I've already post a logical response to this erroneous doctrine. I've also show where it entered the church

Just as I take the existence of God from the plain meaning of Scripture,
so I take the sovereignty of God from the same, as in:

"All the people of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?' " (Da 4:35)
God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel. (Da 1:9)

"The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD,
he directs it like a watercourse, wherever he pleases. . . (Pr 21:1)

". . .having been predestined according to the plan of
him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." (Eph 1:4-12)

". . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed." (Ac 13:38)

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad
--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: (i.e.) not by works but by him who calls--
she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' " (Ro 9:14-29)

"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose. . ." (Rev 17:17)

"This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;" (Ac 2:23)

"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." (Ac 4:28)

"The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." (Lk 22:22)

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. . .
and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he
justified, he also glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)

"Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in." (Ro 11:25-34)

"From the beginning God chose you to be saved. . ." (2Th 2:13)

"God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1Pe 1:2)

"God, who put it into the heart of Titus. . ." (2Co 8:16)

"I have kept you from sinning against me. . ." (Ge 20:6)

"I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward his people. . ." (Ex 4:21)

"This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven." (Dt 2:25, 30)

"For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel." (Jos 11:20)

"God changed Saul's heart. . ." (1Sa 10:9)

"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm. . .
--everyone whose heart God had moved--prepasred to go up. . .
the God of our fathers, who has put it into the king's heart to bring honor. . .(Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27)

"I had not told anyone what God had put in my heart. . .
My God put it into my heart. . ." (Ne 2:12, 7:5)

". . .whose hearts he turned to hate his people," (Ps 105:25)
"He caused them to be pitied by all who held them captive." (Ps 106:46)

"In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps." (Pr 16:9)
"Many are the plans of a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails." (Pr 19:21)
"A man's steps are directed by the LORD." (Pr 20:24)

You argue with the plain meaning of Scripture because it does not agree with your theology.
I will not be arguing the abundantly plain meaning of God's sovereignty in these Scriptures.

This is a straw man argument. God's sovereignty is not the issue. And, it's not me that arguing with the plain meaning of Scripture.c Remember, I'm the one accepting Paul's statement 'for us there is one God, the Father'. I'm the one accepting Jesus' words when praying to the Father, 'that they may know you, the only true God.'

You've not shown me anything in Scripture that says anything like, there is one God, Father ,Son, and Holy Spirit. There is nothing like that in Scripture. Why adhere to a doctrine that flatly contradicts the Scriptures?

 

[Elin]

this idea is not actually a trinity since it consists of 4 beings.
It consists of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and the being made of the three called God.

Nope. . .the one being of God is the three persons, not another being.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

Praying to his heavenly father of course

 

[Elin]

It is from the mind of man.
It doesn't appear in Christianity until around 450 BC. long after Jesus and the Apostles established the faith.

It appears in Christianity no later than the penning of the NT.

 

[Butch5]

.
PART II:


First of all, it has nothing to do with logic, so "illogical" or "contradictory" do not apply.

It is a matter of ontology.

Logic has everything to do with it. If we reject logic then we believe anything we want. We live by logic everyday. God's created order functions by the logical laws that He created.

Secondly, God did not give us "ontology," those notions are from the mind of man.

That three persons in one God, the revealed notion of God, does not conform to
the ontological notion of man is irrelevant.

Your argument on ontology, itself isn't logical. You said it's from the mind of men. Your understanding of the nature of Christ is also from the human mind. According to your statement above one would assume your understanding is irrelevant.

According to you, God doesn't exist because there is no text which states, "God exists."

According to you, God isn't sovereign because there is no text which states, "God is sovereign."

That demonstratedly false rule is your own unbiblical notion.

I said no such thing. I didn't say one being consisting of three persons is not true because it's not is the Scriptures. I said it's not true because it's a logical contradiction and God doesn't contradict Himself. I challenged you to provide Scripture to support your claim that one being consists of three persons, which Scripture does not affirm.

Your whole gig on the Trinity has nothing to do with Scripture nor logic.

Not at all, it fits the totality of Scripture without creating any contradictions in the Scriptures and it is consistent with the roughly 400 years of Church history

 

[Butch5]

It appears in Christianity no later than the penning of the NT.

I've already given the historic belief til approximately 400 Ad. it's not there.

 

[Butch5]

Nope. . .the one being of God is the three persons, not another being.

That's not possible.

 

[Elin]

So then "God exists" is a presupposition, because there is no such statement,
nor proof in all of Scripture.

Not at all. Scripture says, "in the beginning God",
His existence is stated in the first verse of the Bible

Ahhh. . .now you are "interpreting," without a specific statement, "God exists."

So your theology is based simply on whose ox is in the ditch.

I'm not over analyzing it, I'm simply not accepting something that simply cannot be possible.
I've already post a logical response

It's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of ontology, which comes from the mind of man.
It matters not whether the Trinity agrees with man's ontology.

You've not shown me anything in Scripture that says anything like,
there is one God, Father ,Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nor have you shown me any Scripture, "God exists."
as there is no Scripture, "God is sovereign."
Yet both are Biblical.

 

[oldthennew]

DEAU.6:4.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

 

[Elin]

PART II:

First of all, it has nothing to do with logic, so "illogical" or "contradictory" do not apply.

It is a matter of ontology.

Logic has everything to do with it. If we reject logic then we believe anything we want. We live by logic everyday. God's created order functions by the logical laws that He created.

What law of logic is broken?

 

[Butch5]

Ahhh. . .now you are "interpreting," without a specific statement, "God exists."

So your theology is based simply on whose ox is in the ditch.

Seriously? If 'in the beginning God" doesn't state that God exists, I don't know what does. However, that whole argument is fallacious. Just because the Scriptures don't state that God is sovereign or that God is a Trinity and they may be true, it doesn't mean that everything that is not stated is true. The Scriptures don't state that computers need electricity, but that true. Likewise, the Scriptures don't state that cats can fly, that's not true. Neither statement is in the Bible yet one is true and one isn't.

It's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of ontology, which comes from the mind of man.
It matters not whether the Trinity agrees with man's ontology.

It is about logic. Ontology is determined by logic. People use logic to figure out the nature of Christ.

Nor have you shown me any Scripture, "God exists."
as there is no Scripture, "God is sovereign."
Yet both are Biblical.

As I said above, that argument is fallacious. Just because the Scriptures don't state something doesn't make it true. The fact that it can't be prove by Scripture should send up red flags.

 

[Elin]

It appears in Christianity no later than the penning of the NT.

I've already given the historic belief til approximately 400 Ad. it's not there.

Read the NT, that is where it is revealed, its first appearing in Christianity.

 

[Butch5]

What law of logic is broken?

The Law of Non Contradiction. One being cannot consist of three beings. One is singular, three is plural. Three is more than one. One cannot add, 1+1+1 and get 1

 

[Elin]

That's not possible.

Poor God, his arm is too short.

 

[Butch5]

Read the NT, that is where it is revealed, its first appearing in Christianity.

No, it does't. It appears in the 5th century. Even Jesus said,

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (Mar 12:29 KJV)

Jesus quotes the Shema and uses a singular verb "Is". He didn't say the Lord are one, He said, "Is" one.

 

[Butch5]

Poor God, his arm is too short.

No, it's just that He doesn't contradict Himself.

 

[Elin]

Seriously? If 'in the beginning God" doesn't state that God exists,
I don't know what does.

That would be, "God exists."

However, that whole argument is fallacious. Just because the Scriptures don't state that God is sovereign or that God is a Trinity and they may be true,
it doesn't mean that everything that is not stated is true.

Agreed.

It is about logic. Ontology is determined by logic.

Not "determined."

Ontology may be logical, but contrary to ontology does not mean contrary to logic.

Keeping in mind, that ontology is a construct of man, not of Scripture.

 

[Elin]

The Law of Non Contradiction. One being cannot consist of three beings. One is singular, three is plural. Three is more than one. One cannot add, 1+1+1 and get 1

Contradiction in your mind, but not in the NT nor the mind of God.

Do you have a Biblical statement, "God gave us logic," or "God's truth is 'logical'."?

If not, according to you, as with a specific statement on the Trinity, you have no grounds for maintaining such.