Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?
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2 Thess, 2:1-4
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or all that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
My Bible clearly states that our gathering together unto Jesus ( the rapture ) can not take place until the man of sin (anti-christ) is revealed.
How can you deny this truth?
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or all that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
My Bible clearly states that our gathering together unto Jesus ( the rapture ) can not take place until the man of sin (anti-christ) is revealed.
How can you deny this truth?
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
what don't you understand?????????"except there come a falling away first",
"Except"...'not including; other than.'
"there come ".....in or at that place (opposed to here)....''This has not happened yet'
"a falling away".....to subside or abate. (Gentile def)....Biblical Def... "depart from" or "go away".
first..... #1
This in no way pertains to the 'man of sin' but rather the Church was falling away (departing or going away). WHy the Church??? because in the first two verses Paul speak of the Church itself!
2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)...."Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
The removing of the restrainer as found in other verses as well. FIRST!!!!!
and Then
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
what don't you understand?????????"except there come a falling away first",
"Except"...'not including; other than.'
"there come ".....in or at that place (opposed to here)....''This has not happened yet'
"a falling away".....to subside or abate. (Gentile def)....Biblical Def... "depart from" or "go away".
first..... #1
This in no way pertains to the 'man of sin' but rather the Church was falling away (departing or going away). WHy the Church??? because in the first two verses Paul speak of the Church itself!
2 Thessalonians 2 (KJV)...."Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
The removing of the restrainer as found in other verses as well. FIRST!!!!!
and Then
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
I believe the 144,000 are OT Saints. I think this because:
1) They were the first to be redeemed (saved) from all mankind.
2) Christ ministered to them when He died and they accepted Him and their souls then went to Heaven.
3) They are still listed with their tribe. There is an OT prophesy that says after the Babylonian captivity, they will be one nation and no longer two nations so obviously the tribal organizations are gone.
1) They were the first to be redeemed (saved) from all mankind.
2) Christ ministered to them when He died and they accepted Him and their souls then went to Heaven.
3) They are still listed with their tribe. There is an OT prophesy that says after the Babylonian captivity, they will be one nation and no longer two nations so obviously the tribal organizations are gone.
Hello Nice_Lady,
What exactly is your question?
Jacob's original sons totaled 12. Manasseh and Ephraim, who are Joseph's sons were reckoned to Jacob, but were not apart of the original 12.
Regarding the 144,000, Dan is missing from the list and replaced with Manasseh. Many have given their opinion that Dan is not on the list because of idolatry, but the fact is that every tribe was guilty of idolatry. I have yet to find a reasonable answer for this, but I continue to keep my eyes open regarding this.
People have also erroneously made the claim that because Dan is not listed among the 144,000, that it is not referring to the literal tribes. And for that reason they symbolize this group making it the church. They also make the error of symbolizing the number of 144,000 to mean an unknown amount.
What exactly is your question?
Jacob's original sons totaled 12. Manasseh and Ephraim, who are Joseph's sons were reckoned to Jacob, but were not apart of the original 12.
Regarding the 144,000, Dan is missing from the list and replaced with Manasseh. Many have given their opinion that Dan is not on the list because of idolatry, but the fact is that every tribe was guilty of idolatry. I have yet to find a reasonable answer for this, but I continue to keep my eyes open regarding this.
People have also erroneously made the claim that because Dan is not listed among the 144,000, that it is not referring to the literal tribes. And for that reason they symbolize this group making it the church. They also make the error of symbolizing the number of 144,000 to mean an unknown amount.
You wrote alot so I'll just explain my version. The 144,000 are the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel that will be left behind AFTER the rapture that will happen right when the tribulation finishes. What are the tribulations? Well the end of the 70th week of Daniel that includes the antichrist, mark of the beast, and heavy persecution of the christians, so yes i believe in post-trib. Those 144,000 will stay and be protected by God for repentance during God's WRATH which is diffferent from tribulation. There will be 2 preachers during this time i would assume to be Enoch & Elijah since they never died idk just a guess to save those tribes and then we come back for battle of armaggedon.
Hi Nice-lady
Here are the original tribes. Notice that Manasseh and Ephraim are already in the list. The tribe of Joseph makes up the Bakers dozen (13). Ephraim + Manasseh + Joseph tribes are used or not used at various places throughout the Bible. It is always twelve where one of these above is missing. Hope this helps.
Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh [Joseph]
Keep in mind that there are no MISSING tribes!
Here are the original tribes. Notice that Manasseh and Ephraim are already in the list. The tribe of Joseph makes up the Bakers dozen (13). Ephraim + Manasseh + Joseph tribes are used or not used at various places throughout the Bible. It is always twelve where one of these above is missing. Hope this helps.
Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh [Joseph]
Keep in mind that there are no MISSING tribes!
Dan coming from a literal tribe was used as a metaphor as a type was put aside to represent those as a false prophets, false apostles. It is described in that parable as falling backward indicating under the judgment of God resisting the grace of God .
Twelve was the number metaphor God was shooting for in the end to used in that parable to represent all of the born again saints as the bride of Christ in the Old Testament. It was not connected to the person of Dan as his flesh but used as a type.
It does not mean that all men from the tribe of Dan were false apostles or false prophets
Today a Jew cannot trace their genealogy ending in scripture. Even if they could it would not benefit. The use of it was no longer needed because of the time of reformation restoring to the government of men a previous order when there was no outward representative. The veil was rent rendering anything that had to with a temple used as a shadow to no effect. . .
The genealogy had served its purpose to represent the spiritual seed of Christ not seen .
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Jesus saying three words moved the Holy Spirit that cast them supernaturally to the ground exposing the false apostles. the lifeless spiritless rudiment men was formed from before God breathed into the temporal body the breath of limited spirit life because of the corruption as the kind of spirit that needed to be born again as a new incorruptible spirit that could never die. ..
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
The same with the new testament saints in respect to Judas he was used for the same purpose as Dan in respect to the number twelve saints as the wife of Christ to represent an unknown number .
God forbids numbering people... calling it an evil.
No man knows how many people had the Spirit of Christ in them in respect to apostles or tribes as other sent ones (apostles) that did or did not have the Holy Spirit, Christ....as they did not belong to Christ as new creatures.
Together with the twelve of both tribes and apostles (24 elders) make up one spiritual house of God as His eternal bride. They could sing the new song the gospel of their salvation represented by a number no man can count which is either 144,000 or ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; both representing a number no man could count as a violation of not numbering
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.And they "sung a new song", saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Rev 5:7-11
That would include the tongue of the Jew, and the nation of a Jew. God is no respecter of persons.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
As one gospel, one bride, the church.
Which literal number do we use to represent those 24 elders with a new song. I would say seeing we cannot serve two masters which one. One hundred and forty four thousand or rather; ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands?
Twelve was the number metaphor God was shooting for in the end to used in that parable to represent all of the born again saints as the bride of Christ in the Old Testament. It was not connected to the person of Dan as his flesh but used as a type.
It does not mean that all men from the tribe of Dan were false apostles or false prophets
Today a Jew cannot trace their genealogy ending in scripture. Even if they could it would not benefit. The use of it was no longer needed because of the time of reformation restoring to the government of men a previous order when there was no outward representative. The veil was rent rendering anything that had to with a temple used as a shadow to no effect. . .
The genealogy had served its purpose to represent the spiritual seed of Christ not seen .
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Jesus saying three words moved the Holy Spirit that cast them supernaturally to the ground exposing the false apostles. the lifeless spiritless rudiment men was formed from before God breathed into the temporal body the breath of limited spirit life because of the corruption as the kind of spirit that needed to be born again as a new incorruptible spirit that could never die. ..
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
The same with the new testament saints in respect to Judas he was used for the same purpose as Dan in respect to the number twelve saints as the wife of Christ to represent an unknown number .
God forbids numbering people... calling it an evil.
No man knows how many people had the Spirit of Christ in them in respect to apostles or tribes as other sent ones (apostles) that did or did not have the Holy Spirit, Christ....as they did not belong to Christ as new creatures.
Together with the twelve of both tribes and apostles (24 elders) make up one spiritual house of God as His eternal bride. They could sing the new song the gospel of their salvation represented by a number no man can count which is either 144,000 or ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; both representing a number no man could count as a violation of not numbering
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.And they "sung a new song", saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Rev 5:7-11
That would include the tongue of the Jew, and the nation of a Jew. God is no respecter of persons.
Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
As one gospel, one bride, the church.
Which literal number do we use to represent those 24 elders with a new song. I would say seeing we cannot serve two masters which one. One hundred and forty four thousand or rather; ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands?
Dan and Ephraim (he had Joseph instead) were clearly missing because they were especially noted for their idolatry. It was clearly an artificial arrangement.
The fact that Dan is missing proves the tribes are not to be taken literally.
The group are sealed by God ready for His judgments. The church was sealed by God (Eph 1.12-14).
They were exactly numbered to demonstrate that God had numbered His people. He then points out that in fact they could not be numbered by anyone else (the multitude whom no man can number).
The number 144,000 clearly links with the new Jerusalem (Rev 21 which see) who are the church of God (Old and New testament).
God was indicating that His people were under His protecting throughout Revelation,
The fact that Dan is missing proves the tribes are not to be taken literally.
The group are sealed by God ready for His judgments. The church was sealed by God (Eph 1.12-14).
They were exactly numbered to demonstrate that God had numbered His people. He then points out that in fact they could not be numbered by anyone else (the multitude whom no man can number).
The number 144,000 clearly links with the new Jerusalem (Rev 21 which see) who are the church of God (Old and New testament).
God was indicating that His people were under His protecting throughout Revelation,
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Hello Nice_Lady,
Have you checked out Rev.7:1-8 at the listings of 12 of the tribes of Israel yet? Mannesah and Ephraim were Joseph's sons, that Jacob claimed as his own. If you notice the listings in Rev.7, both Ephraim and Dan are missing. Reasons given for this are usually due to both of them being heavily involved in the setting up of Idols and involved in practicing the worship of Baal., in addition to other reasons. I believe, overall, you will find, there were only 13 tribes of Israel, including Mannesah, Ephraim and Levi. The following link may also be of help to you:
Why are Dan and Ephraim not listed in the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8?
Quasar92
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