Why are so many Christians biblically illiterate?

posthuman · Feb 14, 2016

hi.

did you catch the part where God said "I will punish" ?

maybe you can help me find somewhere in the Bible where you or I get do decide what righteous recompense is, or where maybe as created humans it's our place to tell God what He can and cannot, or should or should not do. i looked, but i didn't see anything right off the bat. i did read somewhere, though, something to the effect that "the fear of Jah is the beginning of wisdom."
so maybe we should start there, with reverent humility before Him. just a thought.

thanks.

posthuman · Feb 14, 2016

lovethelight said:

here, in the new testament, the same character is reflected --

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
(Romans 11:17-21)

we are clay in His hands, an axe for Him to wield -- not before Christ's advent, and not now, after, should we think to tell the Potter what He can do with us, or think we can raise ourselves up over His head.

posthuman · Feb 14, 2016

posthuman said:

forgive me if this was rude.
i know that i am impatient and crass when i come across what i see as disrespect to God's sovereignty.
i should be gentle, and give you respect.

you have every right to wonder over what you might see as two different sets of character traits in the Bible - especially as the world today often portrays a false image of a soft, squishy, lovey-dovey Jesus that would never condemn a fly. but this same Christ cursed and withered a fig tree because it did not have fruit on it, and spoke more about hell than any other character in the scripture. it's apropos that this should come up in this thread - since it does i think illustrate how one can be led astray when they are 'Biblically illiterate'
in reality, there is One God, and He does not change, and salvation is by His mercy. illustrations of His righteous judgement in the old testament simply underscore that for me -- that it is by mercy that He offers to pardon us and that His patience & grace are very, very, very great toward us.

lovethelight · Feb 14, 2016

No, since I am a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, I got the part where God said, "God so loved the world..." and "Neither do I condemn you" and "love your enemies" and "treat others the way you want to be treated". God is not a hypocrite, nor does He contradict Himself.

You need to read a bit further to, 'the love of God is the consummation of wisdom', but you are free to continue to live by fear if you'd like... Just a few more thoughts, thanks...

lovethelight · Feb 14, 2016

posthuman said:

I don't wonder, by His love I know...

Jesus talks of "hell" 11 times in the gospels, and he speaks of "heaven" over 10 times as much so that is a false saying.

So, you say you ought to respect me, but then you judge me as "biblically illiterate", not knowing how many times I have read the bible or how long I have studied it. That should disturb you.

You are correct, there is One Creator and He does not change, nor is He schizophrenic. Not sure what killing thousands of "women, children and infants" (1 Sam. 15:1-3) has to do with "mercy"? Can you explain how his "grace" and "mercy" worked towards those infants?

crossnote · Feb 14, 2016

lovethelight said:

Jesus was clear about His mission in coming as a man...

John 3:17 KJVS
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

His judgment of some in the OT is only a type of His future Judgment as found in Revelation.
God is being merciful now to all but there will be a definite cutoff time to those who reject His love given in the Gospel.

phil112 · Feb 14, 2016

You guys still milking this thread? Guess I'll have to go back and read some of it.
Never fails, I'll say something on my mind and go on, and people will find something about it to visit about.

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

posthuman said:

Reflected by the One who said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"? Again, instead of quoting Paul, find a quote from the Light about how God is wrathful and eager to punish? Still waiting...

Chuckt · Feb 15, 2016

lovethelight said:

Can I ask you why man is already condemned?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

Chuckt said:

Because we condemn ourselves. The Standard was given, and we refuse to even try to live as the Standard says...heck, we even find ways to ignore and nullify the Standard, and thus, our self-condemnation.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

PilgrimPassingThru · Feb 15, 2016

lovethelight said:

Hi. If you go back to Exodus 17:14 The LORD told them to write it in a memorial book, that He would put out all remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. That it would be the LORD who would be at war with Amalek from generation to generation in Exodus 17:16 and specifically because Amalek was unmerciful to the feeblest of them having struck the hindmost part of Israel when they were weary and faint Duet 25:17-18. And Amalek doing such a thing showed he feared not God in that move (because if he had he would have shown mercy) which he did not. It seems to be here and for these reasons the LORD would show no mercy back, even as it speaks of God being willing to show his wrath also. In King Saul we find Him ordering Saul to execute His fierce wrath 1 Sam 28:18 which wouldn't be a foreign concept along the same lines of "he shall have judgment without mercy that had shown no mercy" spoken of in James 2:13 which Amalek did not show and He and all of his were going to be blotted out from under heaven in 1 Samuel 15:2 God is bringing to their remembrance again what He previously stated in Exodus 17 (which they were also to remember) and He would execute his wrath (or order it to be executed) through King Saul.

Here is where we could possibly see and "eye for an eye" of old even as it is again spoken of in 1 Samuel 15:3 when the prophet Samuel said, " As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women". Where Samuel was doing the King's duty accomplishing that "eye for an eye" and cutting Agag in pieces before the LORD. If it were the "eye for an eye" then it make some sense that it had not yet become Christ's, "ye have heard it said, an eye for an eye, but I say unto you"...

The kindness and severity of God is spoken of as well, it would seem that in this case the execution of wrath was against the unmerciful, which in this case was Amalek (for what was done) and the "eye for an eye" seemed to be the aplication.

I don't know if that would help any or not.

Kaycie · Feb 15, 2016

Very good, I'm glad you see this. What are the odds of growing up being taught what is false? Very great odds- for there is a great many religions out there. We MUST study for ourselves. The bible says to study to show yourselves approved onto God. This is what Michael Shank said in his book Muscle and Shovel.

He and his wife put aside all bias and teachings to learn straight from the bible what they are to do. They got pamphlets from many religions, put them in a pile on their living room floor, and got to work seeing which one matched the scriptures. It takes a shovel to dig deep for the truth, and it takes muscle to think and reason. It takes effort and perseverance.

Is it worth all that hard work? Would you rather take a chance and see if you made it to heaven, like one waits to see if they won the lottery? The bible says these things are written in scripture so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life. That's right, you can KNOW right now whether or not you will go to heaven.

Someday you will be judged according to the bible- whether you read it or not, whether you believe in it or not. Considering that, don't you want to know what it says? Your future self would really want you to make it your very top priority in life. Someday it will be too late, don't miss the opportunity you have to study it now. Your eternal life depends on it.

planitsoon · Feb 15, 2016

We live in a time where everything needs to be instantly available like out instant coffee and junk food and so much is focussed on video and audio (in games you can do so much faster than in real life

that not many people like to be a student of the Word and a Berean. On top of that we now have so many churches worldwide that are just nice political correct Christian country clubs that bring just a feel good psychological message (I am for grace etc) but without any substance taught from the Word. Of course there are always the exception.

From my experience I see that most Christians neglect some simple rules of interpretation.

NT higher revelation. The first and most important rule I think is that we should interpret the OT through the higher revelation of the NT, as this is the fulfilment of the Old. Dispensationalism/Futurism or Zionism as some call it for example, tries to interpret the New Testament through Old Testament (backwards) passages like Daniel 9 etc etc and to me that is the biggest flaw of this theological framework with all the dualism (two temples, two peoples, two covenants, two judgments etc) that has caused so much confusion in the church.

Time lines, when the word "today" is mentioned in for example, Gen 47:26 it doesn't apply to today, our 21st century or to Luther who probably read this 500 yrs ago, we don't have a Pharaoh in the land of Egypt. Five times it shows also that the NT writers believed that they themselves lived in the last days (as the Jews believed they lived in the last days (they said these days refering to their time, not those days) of the Old Covenant as they had been waiting since Daniel 9 for over 400 yrs for the prince to arrive). "This is the last hour, not that will be etc etc. You know these verses. And yet, often many try to apply so much to our own generation and every single generation falls for the same trap. It takes a stretch to change the word "shortly" to 2000 yrs as then time becomes totally irrelevant. If Daniel was told to seal the book for a long time and we now know that was about 500 years (7x70 weeks=490) how can "at hand" take already more than 2000 years? A thousand years is one day to the Lord is an often heard argument and one could very argue then that Jesus was 3000 years in the grave to name just one thing.

Audience Relevance, The Word was indeed written for us BUT not everything was written TO us and so we then must ask the question. To whom was this written, is this for us today or was this written to a person or people living in the past? Also, if what is written doesn't make any sense for the original audience it was written to, why would it mean anything at all to us today? Why would John have send the letter of Revelation to seven real churches if 80-100% of the letter was completely irrelevant. Most scholars these days believe that Revelation was written in 95AD under Iraneus (external evidence) but there is enough internal evidence in the Word itself it was actually written before 68AD. Therefore most of this prophectic book applies to what was coming and prophecide by Christ in Matthew 24. He cursed that generation of Jews and we know from Josephus Flavius in how much detail everything was fulfilled up to the beautiful Arch of Titus still standing in Rome. I can't understand why Jesus would now curse the whole world and we all have to pay for Matthew 23:35 again (He explained in Matthew 24 in detail- as you know originally we didn't have chapters or verses) Matthew 24 applies to Jews, they kept the Sabbath, a local place, mountains of Judeah and a time, this generation, Jesus said and was speaking to at the time.

Mixing of the Covenants, so many Christians try to apply old covenant principles to the New Creation, tithing being probably the most obvious one of all. Derek Prince and his blessings and curses book hasn't brought much enlightenment to the church either. We say Gods ways are higher then ours and that might be true but in context it applies to the godless person (vers 7), not to Christians, while the NT actually say the total opposite and have the mind of Christ, Christ told us not to put new wine in old wine skins which I believe applies to mixing up the New Covenant with the other ones.

Context is the last one. We have to interpret scripture with scripture and even if we can't get more understanding from the direct context, then we look in the context of the entire chapter, New Testament or the whole Word, like with Paul thorn which we can find back two times in the OT only where is refers to the enemies of Israel. (Num 33:33 and Josh 23:13) Paul was prophecied that he had so suffer much for the gospel. 'For fear of the Jews' is quoted by him several times. One thing is established by two or three witnesses and I think it is smart to not base a doctrine on one single scripture like baptizing for the dead, snake handling, the rapture or confession.

The Bible is literature and I believe simple rules apply just like any other piece of literature. Some Christians believe that every single part of the Bible is Gods Word, but we know better. God never said for example, "the Lord has given, the Lord has taken" and Job himself admits at the end of the book that he himself spoke much foolishness and yet, this verse is just one simple example (used in many funerals) how people change Jobs words of foolishness... into the Word of God. As if we can take any verse out of it and in itself call it the Word of God. As if Gods Word is a magic book that we can completely read any way we want and neglecting all simple logic how to read literature.

DP · Feb 15, 2016

phil112 said:

Why are so many Christians biblically illiterate? | Fox News

This is a serious problem, and it exists in this forum too.
When I got saved, altho I had gone to church as a lad with the family, and dad was always a studious believer, I made a vow to myself that I was going to get it right. I made the decision that I would no longer accept what I had been, and was being, taught as truth. I measured everything I knew and heard against the word. And I consequently rejected many things that I had long believed and accepted as bible truth.
I had many a discussion and argument with my father because of that. And he too came to see many things differently than he previously had.
Many of you here are of that cloth. You read and believe what you know to be true, but never really measuring it against the word. Being taught something from our youth, having mothers and fathers, loved ones, that believe something in error is not what we want to hear.
I have had discussion and disagreements with folks here because of that very thing. It's always the other guy that needs to reconsider, to see it my way. Never me.
But I don't have a way. I see it as the bible tells me to. And, just as it tells us, when we adhere to the word we are going to be on an island on this planet. Truth will isolate us from most people.
Friends, this is something that we must always search our inward parts about. We must always be on guard to prevent ourself from falling into that error of never being wrong. We must do this daily. Hourly. Ever. It is important.
Folks, think about this scripture. There is just no room for error. We must be right. That requires constant study and prayer. The stakes are enormous. Never in anyone's life has anything been more important, yet we cavalierly dismiss others input because it disagrees with something we have made up our mind about long ago, something we have decided to believe because, well because that is what we believe.
God is right. Anyone and anything that disagrees with Him is wrong. Period. So it doesn't matter if you got it from your father, your mother, your favorite preacher. It matters if it agrees exactly with His word.
I would exhort everyone to constantly measure their beliefs with the bible. Why? Because it is the word of God and God is never wrong. Very simple at the heart of the matter.
Study to show yourself approved, not unto your neighbor, your wife, your husband, your church, but to God.
Food for thought..............

Problem on this forum, and many like them, is most come here to push the particular doctrines of men their Church taught them, regardless of what God's Word actually declares.

Then there are some who come here with the intention to deceive the brethren in Christ.

Then there are some who begin to be convicted by God's Word shown to them, and because of what they have followed or held to for many years, they are afraid to make a change; might loose friends, or lose face.

It's pretty much how our Lord Jesus showed about the four groups in His parable of the sower, regarding how they receive God's Word and whether It sinks in or not.

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

crossnote said:

"God is merciful now" but he was not in the past nor will he be in the future...thus, God changes or He is confused about what is the right way to 'behave'.

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

Kaycie said:

No, people will not be judged "according to the bible", that is false. Rather...

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12:48

I find it very odd that christians don't listen well to 'the christ'.

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

PilgrimPassingThru said:

Well, what is true (passes the test of reason) and simple helps. So, for example, if you were a mom and some days you were kind and patient with your children, and then on another day, you beat them mercilessly, I would think that you children would be very confused and scared.

So, how were those "children and infants" 'unmerciful'? If a man does something wrong, is it right to punish his children for his sins?

Magenta · Feb 15, 2016

lovethelight said:

Does God having more than one characteristic confuse you?

lovethelight · Feb 15, 2016

Magenta said:

No, God supposedly having conflicting character aspects is confusing to all people. Virtue is about having and practicing good character traits. For example, the character of "patience" (good) eliminates having the character of "impatience" (bad). Or the character trait of loving-kindness (good) eliminates the character of trait of showing wrath (bad). To display opposing character traits is evidence of an unstable person, and God is not unstable...God only has good character traits, and that eliminates him having bad ones.

Magenta · Feb 15, 2016

lovethelight said:

No, God supposedly having conflicting character aspects is confusing to all people. Virtue is about having and practicing good character traits. For example, the character of "patience" (good) eliminates having the character of "impatience" (bad). Or the character trait of loving-kindness (good) eliminates the character of trait of showing wrath (bad). To display opposing character traits is evidence of an unstable person, and God is not unstable...God only has good character traits, and that eliminates him having bad ones.

The problem is with your classifications. Destroying evil is merciful, just, and loving.

Why are so many Christians biblically illiterate?

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