Why are the oldest churches so unbiblical?

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Jan 21, 2017
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#21
they have scriptures to back up everything they do, they just have a different view than you do.

why does it bother you what someone in another church does, are there Catholics out in the parking lot of your church disrupting your services every sunday.
Ok its time to take the gloves off with you, I provided numerous examples where they go AGAINST the bible directly, such as not calling anyone your Father, and yet there is the pope.

So your "they have scriptures to back up everything they do" is absolute 100% hogwash.
NOT TRUE AT ALL! So appeareantly mr jaybird, you're either a catholic yourself who absolute FAILS at defending his faith, or you think everyone else is too stupid to do a simple 5second search to find out that you're post contains no truth what so ever.
I can see you dont care about truth, consider yourself blocked, go stand around in that catholic parking lot worshiping Mary, enjoy kissing the pope.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#22
I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest, as we all know the catholic church and the orthodox church are both ANCIENT, way older than any of the protestant denominations we have today, yet it appears to me that these are the MOST unbiblical churches we have!!!

Its amazing! Logically tihnking you would assume like "hey, they've been around the longest, thats the original doctrines right there" , and many do assume this, but if you want to look at it from a biblical point of view, its VERY different with all the praying to Mary and saints and angels and superduper angels, its a mess. Not to mention the core teaching on salvation is 100% works based, and worse than that, its not even BIBLICAL WORKS but completely man made works..........

And even today this is the main argument of catholics, hey, our church was founded earlier than yours and church fathers agree with us! But what about the bible? can tradition be added to it? Not in my opinion.

Now to the actual questions I'd want yalls opinion on:

1. We know catholics have been the majority of christians forever pretty much, BUT has there always been a remnant of bible believing Christians? Or was tradition plus writings the norm forever and we just messed it up at the reformation.

2. If there were no other christians except catholics, would that mean that EVERYONE was wrong for 1500 years? That seems like a stretch to me.

PS: if you are catholic and would like to show me that the bible approves of praying to saints and Mary, im all ears and willing to learn and listen.
1. Not in the protestant meaning of the word. The Bible was not printed and almost nobody could read. There were Christians, who took the basics from what they heard and were lead by the Spirit. Like today, you can meet roman catholics or orthodox Christians, who are really Christians even though their knowledge of doctrines or Bible is not perfect.

2. There was a development. The catholic church in 500 AD was not as damaged by tradition as the catholic chuch in 1500 AD. The gospel could be found in those times much easier.

Also, do not forget the eastern roman empire, in Byzantine empire the orthodox church and society had much more light than western Europe. And again, the orthodox church developed from some better basics.


Summary:
I would say you could be a real Christian in the catholic or orthodox churches, in the beginning. In the time, when those churches became really messed up so that it was hardly possible, God sent the reformation. Timing is always perfect.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#23
1. Not in the protestant meaning of the word. The Bible was not printed and almost nobody could read. There were Christians, who took the basics from what they heard and were lead by the Spirit. Like today, you can meet roman catholics or orthodox Christians, who are really Christians even though their knowledge of doctrines or Bible is not perfect.

2. There was a development. The catholic church in 500 AD was not as damaged by tradition as the catholic chuch in 1500 AD. The gospel could be found in those times much easier.

Also, do not forget the eastern roman empire, in Byzantine empire the orthodox church and society had much more light than western Europe. And again, the orthodox church developed from some better basics.


Summary:
I would say you could be a real Christian in the catholic or orthodox churches, in the beginning. In the time, when those churches became really messed up so that it was hardly possible, God sent the reformation. Timing is always perfect.
Great and comprehensive answer sir!
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#24
1. Not in the protestant meaning of the word. The Bible was not printed and almost nobody could read. There were Christians, who took the basics from what they heard and were lead by the Spirit. Like today, you can meet roman catholics or orthodox Christians, who are really Christians even though their knowledge of doctrines or Bible is not perfect.

2. There was a development. The catholic church in 500 AD was not as damaged by tradition as the catholic chuch in 1500 AD. The gospel could be found in those times much easier.

Also, do not forget the eastern roman empire, in Byzantine empire the orthodox church and society had much more light than western Europe. And again, the orthodox church developed from some better basics.


Summary:
I would say you could be a real Christian in the catholic or orthodox churches, in the beginning. In the time, when those churches became really messed up so that it was hardly possible, God sent the reformation. Timing is always perfect.
Here's a interesting read though it's about 9 years old, lol

Archeologists have unearthed what they believe to be the first Christian church ever built. It’s located in a cave underneath the Saint Georgeous Church in Rihab in northern Jordan – where it’s thought early Christians fled to escape persecut
Built in 230 AD, Saint Georgeous is believed to be the oldest “proper” church in the world.

Archaeologists say they have evidence suggesting the church sheltered the 70 disciples of Jesus Christ.

According to experts, the 70 fled from Jerusalem during the persecution of Christians. The secret underground church allowed them to practise their rituals in secret. Historians say they didn’t leave the cave until the Christian religion was embraced by the Roman Empire.

A mosaic inscription on the floor of the church describes the early Christians as ‘the 70 beloved by God and Divine’.

Archaeologists say there is a circle shape area in the cave, believed to be the apse, and several stone seats for the ecclesiastics.

So far, 30 churches have been unearthed in Rihab.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#25
Ok its time to take the gloves off with you, I provided numerous examples where they go AGAINST the bible directly, such as not calling anyone your Father, and yet there is the pope.

So your "they have scriptures to back up everything they do" is absolute 100% hogwash.
NOT TRUE AT ALL! So appeareantly mr jaybird, you're either a catholic yourself who absolute FAILS at defending his faith, or you think everyone else is too stupid to do a simple 5second search to find out that you're post contains no truth what so ever.
I can see you dont care about truth, consider yourself blocked, go stand around in that catholic parking lot worshiping Mary, enjoy kissing the pope.
your OP is whats hogwash. you dont go to a non Catholic forum and ask them to explain Catholicism. if you truly wanted to know why you would need to ask a Catholic. but you have no interest in knowing why they do what they do, your only interest is badmouthing a religion you hate.
whenever i see a tv preacher dancing on a pile of money they are never from the Catholic faith. remove the plank from your own eye.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#26
they have scriptures to back up everything they do, they just have a different view than you do.

why does it bother you what someone in another church does, are there Catholics out in the parking lot of your church disrupting your services every sunday.
They have a view that is shaped by their early church fathers and not by the Holy Spirit. They the RCC hold the writings of the ecf's to be of equal value to the bible.

I am bothered because souls perish every day due to lack of a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods atonement.

You should be bothered as well.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#27
Actually, those old traditions are VERY Biblical. The trouble is that they based them upon distorted interpretations of various verses they took directly from the pages of a Bible.

They are not unbiblical. They are, instead, un-Christlike.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#28
They have a view that is shaped by their early church fathers and not by the Holy Spirit. They the RCC hold the writings of the ecf's to be of equal value to the bible.

I am bothered because souls perish every day due to lack of a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods atonement.

You should be bothered as well.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
but non Catholics have doctrine they have elevated to being equal to holy scripture. so did the pharisees. we know the pharisees were in error because Jesus corrected this. why is it ok today?
all these souls you worry for, are none of them asking, seeking knocking? if not, why would they be in church in the first place, if they are, does Jesus not say they will be lead right where they need to be?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#29
your OP is whats hogwash. you dont go to a non Catholic forum and ask them to explain Catholicism. if you truly wanted to know why you would need to ask a Catholic. but you have no interest in knowing why they do what they do, your only interest is badmouthing a religion you hate.
whenever i see a tv preacher dancing on a pile of money they are never from the Catholic faith. remove the plank from your own eye.
Just a note - there is no richer church than the one seated in Vatican. Its riches are astronomical....

TV preachers' riches are nothing compared to it.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#30
Just a note - there is no richer church than the one seated in Vatican. Its riches are astronomical....

TV preachers' riches are nothing compared to it.
the Vatican is and always has been corrupt. you can say this about most all leaders at the top of any organization. the power, money and influence always corrupts, no denomination is immune to this.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#31
But, seriously....... How can anyone have even the sketchiest idea of what is in the Bible, and think that bobbing up and down, parroting text out of a book like it is conversation, ringing bells, swing containers of smoke on a chain, flicking water, folding napkins, marching around in little parades up and down the church aisles, wearing silly fish hats and robes and sashes and bead belts, growing scraggly beards, and a dozen other traditions men have devised to try and look and sound "Holy"... is somehow something God requires us to do? Or even WANTS us to do?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#32
the Vatican is and always has been corrupt. you can say this about most all leaders at the top of any organization. the power, money and influence always corrupts, no denomination is immune to this.
"But the heart of men is so easily corrupted..." (The Lord of the Rings).
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#33
But, seriously....... How can anyone have even the sketchiest idea of what is in the Bible, and think that bobbing up and down, parroting text out of a book like it is conversation, ringing bells, swing containers of smoke on a chain, flicking water, folding napkins, marching around in little parades up and down the church aisles, wearing silly fish hats and robes and sashes and bead belts, growing scraggly beards, and a dozen other traditions men have devised to try and look and sound "Holy"... is somehow something God requires us to do? Or even WANTS us to do?
:) Nobody says you should do the ceremony :) Common people are sitting in the audience.

The problem with their doctrine is much more serious than these useless funny ceremonies...every church has some, even though not such extreme ones.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#34
:) Nobody says you should do the ceremony :) Common people are sitting in the audience.

The problem with their doctrine is much more serious than these useless funny ceremonies...every church has some, even though not such extreme ones.
This was one of the primary aspects of the Vineyard that first attracted me to it. They have hardly anything like that. If anything, they do like to sing more than I prefer. LOL
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#35
"But the heart of men is so easily corrupted..." (The Lord of the Rings).
dont even get me started on the Lord of the rings church, i got invited to it once, that elf preaching from behind that flaming eye gave me nightmares for months.
 
Aug 16, 2016
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#36
Most catholics don't read the bible as much as christians so it would be very difficult for them to prove their false doctrines to be true. I've even heard the Pope said Christ failed on the cross & there was practically no outrage from them.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#37
but non Catholics have doctrine they have elevated to being equal to holy scripture. so did the pharisees. we know the pharisees were in error because Jesus corrected this. why is it ok today?
all these souls you worry for, are none of them asking, seeking knocking? if not, why would they be in church in the first place, if they are, does Jesus not say they will be lead right where they need to be?
Two wrongs do not make a right.

Paul said to owe no man anything except to love him. If we do not give our testimony of salvation through Jesus Christ then we do not love our fellow man.

Sad that we point to the wrong behavior of others to excuse our own bad behavior.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#38
Two wrongs do not make a right.

Paul said to owe no man anything except to love him. If we do not give our testimony of salvation through Jesus Christ then we do not love our fellow man.

Sad that we point to the wrong behavior of others to excuse our own bad behavior.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
i agree and i hnink this is a big issue in the faith today.
 
Jan 17, 2013
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#39
Why are the oldest churches so unbiblical?

I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest,... the catholic church.,.
So unbiblical? The Catholic Church gave us the bible (council of Bishops who selected the canon of books, OT and New, which we call the Bible). You wouldn't have a bible were it not for the Catholic Church. Did you know that the canon of books which comprise the bible were selected in such a way so to be used to glorify God and the sacrifice of Christ through the liturgy of the Mass? It's beautiful, the Word of God, filling every Mass, so beautiful. The Catholic church the most biblical church that's ever existed, naturally, since it is the church began by Christ himself (hundreds of years before Constantine came along) and gave us the bible in the 300's and praises God through His WORD in the celebration of the Mass around the world every single day, constantly, throughout millennia.

Every single day at literally hundreds of thousands of Masses celebrated all around the world.

All Catholics are called to read these daily readings in prayer and meditation EVERY DAY.

Here are today's readings. (4th week of Lent, so are moving towards His Crucifixion, hence the imagery of the Temple of God in the first reading from the OT, water flowing from the side, etc..)

Tuesday of the Fourth Week of Lent
Lectionary: 245



Reading 1 Ez 47:1-9, 12

The angel brought me, Ezekiel,
back to the entrance of the temple of the LORD,
and I saw water flowing out
from beneath the threshold of the temple toward the east,
for the façade of the temple was toward the east;
the water flowed down from the right side of the temple,
south of the altar.
He led me outside by the north gate,
and around to the outer gate facing the east,
where I saw water trickling from the right side.
Then when he had walked off to the east
with a measuring cord in his hand,
he measured off a thousand cubits
and had me wade through the water,
which was ankle-deep.
He measured off another thousand
and once more had me wade through the water,
which was now knee-deep.
Again he measured off a thousand and had me wade;
the water was up to my waist.
Once more he measured off a thousand,
but there was now a river through which I could not wade;
for the water had risen so high it had become a river
that could not be crossed except by swimming.
He asked me, "Have you seen this, son of man?"
Then he brought me to the bank of the river, where he had me sit.
Along the bank of the river I saw very many trees on both sides.
He said to me,
"This water flows into the eastern district down upon the Arabah,
and empties into the sea, the salt waters, which it makes fresh.
Wherever the river flows,
every sort of living creature that can multiply shall live,
and there shall be abundant fish,
for wherever this water comes the sea shall be made fresh.
Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of every kind shall grow;
their leaves shall not fade, nor their fruit fail.
Every month they shall bear fresh fruit,
for they shall be watered by the flow from the sanctuary.
Their fruit shall serve for food, and their leaves for medicine."
Responsorial Psalm Ps 46:2-3, 5-6, 8-9

R. (8) The Lord of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob.
God is our refuge and our strength,
an ever-present help in distress.
Therefore we fear not, though the earth be shaken
and mountains plunge into the depths of the sea.
R. The Lord of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob.
There is a stream whose runlets gladden the city of God,
the holy dwelling of the Most High.
God is in its midst; it shall not be disturbed;
God will help it at the break of dawn.
R. The Lord of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob.
The LORD of hosts is with us;
our stronghold is the God of Jacob.
Come! behold the deeds of the LORD,
the astounding things he has wrought on earth.
R. The Lord of hosts is with us; our stronghold is the God of Jacob.
Verse Before the Gospel Ps 51:12a, 14a

A clean heart create for me, O God;
give me back the joy of your salvation.
Gospel Jn 5:1-16

There was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Now there is in Jerusalem at the Sheep Gate
a pool called in Hebrew Bethesda, with five porticoes.
In these lay a large number of ill, blind, lame, and crippled.
One man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years.
When Jesus saw him lying there
and knew that he had been ill for a long time, he said to him,
"Do you want to be well?"
The sick man answered him,
"Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool
when the water is stirred up;
while I am on my way, someone else gets down there before me."
Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your mat, and walk."
Immediately the man became well, took up his mat, and walked.

Now that day was a sabbath.
So the Jews said to the man who was cured,
"It is the sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry your mat."
He answered them, "The man who made me well told me,
'Take up your mat and walk.'"
They asked him,
"Who is the man who told you, 'Take it up and walk'?"
The man who was healed did not know who it was,
for Jesus had slipped away, since there was a crowd there.
After this Jesus found him in the temple area and said to him,
"Look, you are well; do not sin any more,
so that nothing worse may happen to you."
The man went and told the Jews
that Jesus was the one who had made him well.
Therefore, the Jews began to persecute Jesus
because he did this on a sabbath.





Praised be Jesus Christ.
Peace be with you.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,995
927
113
#40
I wanna make a topic about this, ive been wondering about this for the longest, as we all know the catholic church and the orthodox church are both ANCIENT, way older than any of the protestant denominations we have today, yet it appears to me that these are the MOST unbiblical churches we have!!!

Its amazing! Logically tihnking you would assume like "hey, they've been around the longest, thats the original doctrines right there" , and many do assume this, but if you want to look at it from a biblical point of view, its VERY different with all the praying to Mary and saints and angels and superduper angels, its a mess. Not to mention the core teaching on salvation is 100% works based, and worse than that, its not even BIBLICAL WORKS but completely man made works..........

And even today this is the main argument of catholics, hey, our church was founded earlier than yours and church fathers agree with us! But what about the bible? can tradition be added to it? Not in my opinion.

Now to the actual questions I'd want yalls opinion on:

1. We know catholics have been the majority of christians forever pretty much, BUT has there always been a remnant of bible believing Christians? Or was tradition plus writings the norm forever and we just messed it up at the reformation.

2. If there were no other christians except catholics, would that mean that EVERYONE was wrong for 1500 years? That seems like a stretch to me.

PS: if you are catholic and would like to show me that the bible approves of praying to saints and Mary, im all ears and willing to learn and listen.
Hi.

This may probably help you in search for the oldest churches. You can google "The Trail of Blood".

God bless you!