-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This refers to Ahithophel, one of David's official counselors. As David's friend, Ahithophel defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy (2 Samuel 15:12, 31; 16:15-23; 17:1-23). It's evidence that there is a messianic connection given to this verse because Jesus quoted it in speaking of Judas Iscariot in John 13:18. Although David said, "my own familiar friend in whom I trusted," nevertheless, Jesus deleted the reference to "trusting," when He used it of Judas. As Ahithophel had eaten bread with David, so too Judas ate bread with the Lord.
True. In Matthew 10:32, we read - "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."
The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation.
Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation (as with Judas Iscariot) place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety.
Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation.
Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation (as with Judas Iscariot) place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety.
Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
He did not mix faith in what he did see. (Heb 4:2).( No faith in Christ, coming from Christ.)
Christ performed that in Judas to help establish the parable using twelve to represent the authority of God .He uses twelve that way throughout the scriptures to in the end point to the bride of Christ. (13-1 =12)
He performed the same in the Old testament in respect to the same one bride, with the tribe of Dan which is eliminated from the twelve other tribes in Revelation...(13-1 =12)
In both cases he uses “falling back” or "backward" as a metaphor to represent they were under the judgment of God. Using the word serpent to indicate who is being deceived by the betrayer..
Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Joh 18:5
Falling back again is used throughout the scripture to indicate one is under the judgement of God.
I find it strange in respect to those today those who seek after signs, by a work they can perform because they have no assurance of the Holy Spirit. They use that phenomena being, slain in the Spirit, falling back, in an opposite way mimicking God, which the father of lies the serpent does in many ways.
What God call together, the serpent separates. What God calls separate the serpent calls it together.. What God calls judgement, he call it salvation. (etc.
Christ performed that in Judas to help establish the parable using twelve to represent the authority of God .He uses twelve that way throughout the scriptures to in the end point to the bride of Christ. (13-1 =12)
He performed the same in the Old testament in respect to the same one bride, with the tribe of Dan which is eliminated from the twelve other tribes in Revelation...(13-1 =12)
In both cases he uses “falling back” or "backward" as a metaphor to represent they were under the judgment of God. Using the word serpent to indicate who is being deceived by the betrayer..
Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Joh 18:5
Falling back again is used throughout the scripture to indicate one is under the judgement of God.
I find it strange in respect to those today those who seek after signs, by a work they can perform because they have no assurance of the Holy Spirit. They use that phenomena being, slain in the Spirit, falling back, in an opposite way mimicking God, which the father of lies the serpent does in many ways.
What God call together, the serpent separates. What God calls separate the serpent calls it together.. What God calls judgement, he call it salvation. (etc.
Last edited:
Christians believe that satan or his demons can not possess a born again believer holy spirit filled.
So what protection did people of the old testiment have from Demons possessing them if the spirit had not been given ?
The fact that people believed In God in the old testement would of been more of a reason for you to be attacked or possessed by a demon if you lived in the old t times,,, and with no spirit to protect you well i dread to think how many people have been blamed for things they did wrong while possessed or tricked by a demon.
So what protection did people of the old testiment have from Demons possessing them if the spirit had not been given ?
The fact that people believed In God in the old testement would of been more of a reason for you to be attacked or possessed by a demon if you lived in the old t times,,, and with no spirit to protect you well i dread to think how many people have been blamed for things they did wrong while possessed or tricked by a demon.
so are you saying the devil has sons on this earth
And if so what is your biblical proof for this.
Also if your not saying that and what your saying he was born evil then is it possible where born pure ?.
Hope this doesnt turn into a flesh thing im talking of the soul i guess im asking can a soul be born evil
And if so what is your biblical proof for this.
Also if your not saying that and what your saying he was born evil then is it possible where born pure ?.
Hope this doesnt turn into a flesh thing im talking of the soul i guess im asking can a soul be born evil
I believe he(judas) didn't believe the WORD of GOD that was manifested to him,talking to him manifested In the flesh was GOD.
+++
John 13:19-22
King James Version(KJV)
19.)Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20.)Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21.)When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22.)Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
+++
John 13:19-22
King James Version(KJV)
19.)Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20.)Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21.)When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22.)Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
2nd Corinthians 5:16-19
King James Version(KJV)
16.)Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known CHRIST after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17.)Therefore if any man be in CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18.)And all things are of GOD, who hath reconciled us to HIMSELF by JESUS CHRIST, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19.)To wit, that GOD was in CHRIST, reconciling the world unto HIMSELF not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
King James Version(KJV)
16.)Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known CHRIST after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17.)Therefore if any man be in CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18.)And all things are of GOD, who hath reconciled us to HIMSELF by JESUS CHRIST, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19.)To wit, that GOD was in CHRIST, reconciling the world unto HIMSELF not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
I'm not sure about your last sentence here... if the spirit (I presume you mean the Holy Spirit) had not been given... that has nothing to do with blaming the flesh for sin. All the humans in the Old Testament were sinners and none had the Spirit in the sense that Christians do. Perhaps you could unpack what you mean?
There is no difference between and Old Testament saint, and a new( Jew or Gentile). A man must be born again from above..If any man has not the Spirit of Christ in respect to the faith of Christ they simply do not belong to Him.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith Act 15:8 (Christ's faith)
I the idea that they did not have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God, is not a biblical teaching.
They by the faith of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God looked ahead to the cross we look back. We receive the end of our faith just as they did. It us that tries to create a difference for some reason or other..
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Satan the father of lies can entice and provoke a believer by influences them through a lie just as easily as one who believes not .
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 1 Chronicals 21:1.
Same with the new testament saints.
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mat 16:21
David denied Christ and counted. Peter denied Christ and tried to stop him from completing the gospel.
The difference is a believer is not sent a strong delusion to continue to believe the lie. But rather does receive a call to turn so that then they can repent. Christ cannot deny Himself, while those who seek after lying signs and wonders, they do receive the strong delusion needed to believe the lie..
This is actually a tricky question… which I like. If I quote the scripture, there is a blinder over their eyes and he did not know Y-shua was/is Messiah than can we really be responsible for not accepting Messiah.?. nor does the Scripture support that about Judas. What it does say is the devil has interred his heart (or something like that I do not want to look it up, I am lazy and Judas loved money more, my paraphrase) so the Scripture tells us (my paraphrase) the here and now mattered more than the world to come because money does matter now, but Y-shua is the big picture. A great life lesson for us all. 30 pieces of silver will give you eternal in hell. We may not sell for 30 pieces of silver today, but what would we sell ourselves for to betray/disobey G-d!?! (not a loose your salvation question…)
Under this new covenant of grace, everything changed. The covenant's conditions changed from man having to find an animal as a substitute for their sins as a blood sacrifice to believing on Jesus blood given for us when Jesus died on the cross "The veil was rent in two" opening the way to God through Christ's blood sacrifice.
The Holy Spirit did not come into all believers and stay in the OT. therefore David even said "Blessed is the man whose sin is not held against him" David had the Holy Spirit but he prayed often "Take not Thy Spirit from me". We don't pray that in this new covenant because the HS was given to us and He stays as a seal as well as our comforter and teacher.
The OT saints did not have what we have. They continued to need to sacrifice animals because they didn't have Jesus "once for all" blood sacrifice. Everything changed when grace came in and law went out.
Last edited:
C
Judas loved money more than Jesus plus he was attracted to the world system.Indeed if u become a friend of the world u can never be a child of God.Judas was a Hypocrite acting to be a person whom he is not,in other words there is a lot of Judas in the church.Thanks to the Holly Spirit because He guides us to the right path and nobody can lie to us.Good works doesnt proof nothing only faith in Christ pleases the Father.But i believe that Judas his in Heaven because after betraying Christ he regret for what he had done because he started to realise and regretting that he done a terrible thing.Y?Because he believed in Christ but at the wrong time thats why he ended up killing himself.
You spoke of the book of Matthew, well, here are some things I see as I looked at it this morning:
Jesus predicts his death 3 times in the book of Matthew, this does NOT mean he does not allude to it at other times.
But he clearly states it 3 times in Matthew's Gospel: Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:22; Matthew 20:17.
It is in the 3rd instance of Matthew, when it clearly shows that all twelve of the disciples (therefore, including Judas Iscariot) are informed of his coming death:
According the Gospel of Matthew, "[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, [SUP]18 [/SUP]“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death.-- Matthew 20:17
I looked at the book of Matthew briefly, since you mentioned your question.
According to Matthew 16, it is only after Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah,
when Jesus begins speaking to his disciples about his forthcoming delivery to death.
Interestingly, while you bring up Satan's entering Judas Iscariot,
Peter was the one rebuked... as being/being influenced by Satan; when Jesus says, "Get behind me Satan."
According to Matthew's text (at least), a foolish Peter meant to save Jesus from death ("I will not let you die," or "you must not die this kind of death" type statement) -- Yet Christ said, "You speak merely of human concern."
Yet, even more interesting to me is that Christ has just told Peter, specifically:
I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.
(I mean... If someone with authority over you gives you the keys to something, do you tell them what they can or cannot do?)
Yet, right after Jesus promises to give "The Keys" to Peter, the to-be recipient asserts his "merely human"-- even satanic--
will. T
Thankfully, Christ had not yet given the keys... according to the word "will" in Matthew 16:19)
But why Judas did what he did was purely for his own profit... kind of like as Peter meant when influenced by Satan (as mentioned in Matthew 16), or you and I can slip into thinking-- if we do not keep listening for God's direction through Scripture, Spirit, and the apostles.
In the case of Peter, Christ rebuked the wrongful thinking and later forgave the denials (although, I do not know if Peter is shown to be restored in the Book of Matthew; I need to read that again).
In the case of Judas Iscariot, Christ allowed the betrayal and did not go back to him-- due in part to the timing of Iscariots self-chosen death.
But let's take it back to Matthew 16, "Who do you say I am?" Jesus asked.
Well, who is the Jesus of the Book of Matthew, of the Bible? Who is he to us today?
Jesus predicts his death 3 times in the book of Matthew, this does NOT mean he does not allude to it at other times.
But he clearly states it 3 times in Matthew's Gospel: Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:22; Matthew 20:17.
It is in the 3rd instance of Matthew, when it clearly shows that all twelve of the disciples (therefore, including Judas Iscariot) are informed of his coming death:
According the Gospel of Matthew, "[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, [SUP]18 [/SUP]“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death.-- Matthew 20:17
I looked at the book of Matthew briefly, since you mentioned your question.
According to Matthew 16, it is only after Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah,
when Jesus begins speaking to his disciples about his forthcoming delivery to death.
Interestingly, while you bring up Satan's entering Judas Iscariot,
Peter was the one rebuked... as being/being influenced by Satan; when Jesus says, "Get behind me Satan."
According to Matthew's text (at least), a foolish Peter meant to save Jesus from death ("I will not let you die," or "you must not die this kind of death" type statement) -- Yet Christ said, "You speak merely of human concern."
Yet, even more interesting to me is that Christ has just told Peter, specifically:
I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.
(I mean... If someone with authority over you gives you the keys to something, do you tell them what they can or cannot do?)
Yet, right after Jesus promises to give "The Keys" to Peter, the to-be recipient asserts his "merely human"-- even satanic--
will. T
Thankfully, Christ had not yet given the keys... according to the word "will" in Matthew 16:19)
But why Judas did what he did was purely for his own profit... kind of like as Peter meant when influenced by Satan (as mentioned in Matthew 16), or you and I can slip into thinking-- if we do not keep listening for God's direction through Scripture, Spirit, and the apostles.
In the case of Peter, Christ rebuked the wrongful thinking and later forgave the denials (although, I do not know if Peter is shown to be restored in the Book of Matthew; I need to read that again).
In the case of Judas Iscariot, Christ allowed the betrayal and did not go back to him-- due in part to the timing of Iscariots self-chosen death.
But let's take it back to Matthew 16, "Who do you say I am?" Jesus asked.
Well, who is the Jesus of the Book of Matthew, of the Bible? Who is he to us today?
Last edited: