Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

aldy · Jan 23, 2017

right,
there is pastor who lead astray,but there are also good pastors who do as the word of God says
Romans 10:17
17 | So belief 'cometh' of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
who preach?there should be someone God sends to us to preach the truth

Acts 8:31
31 | And he said, How can I, except some one shall guide me? And he besought Philip to come up and sit with him.
who guide? there should be someone chosen by God to guide people to the truth

but in condition he is by God

MattTooFor · Jan 23, 2017

Demi777 said:

Meine Heimat -- Marktoberdorf!

Sorry. That was off-topic.

presidente · Jan 23, 2017

MattTooFor wrote,

I have pointed out, on the topic of miracles, that there is no scripture that teaches the the gift of the working of miracles or the gifts of healing have ceased. I have pointed out that the scriptures teach that the Spirit gives these gifts to individuals in the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. Why don't you believe what the scripture says about this topic?

MattTooFor · Jan 23, 2017

presidente said:

I would just assume those gifts ceased with the other gifts mentioned as "ceasing" in 1Cor.13. I would surmise that God expects people to use their common sense in concluding there is no longer anyone who is being healed in the manner of Jesus-style miracles...and therefore would all but conclude these were part of the "confirming miracles" phase of the Christian era.

Again, if there were proportionate numbers of such healings going on here in America today, there should be hundreds and hundreds of clearly documented miracles to choose from. We have iPhones, we have YouTube, we have the Internet.

Hasn't the basic illogic of that question occurred to you? The intent behind the miraculous gifts was for people to be able to SEE them performed. Good grief.

Why did God provide the sign miracles in the first place? Just so that you could admonish people who haven't seen the miracle but would like to? You're certainly doing a good job of that!

Thank God you weren't a deacon in the olden days...standing there, handing out church bulletins as unbelievers walked into the service:

Prez: "What are YOU doing here?
Unbeliever: "Uh..I came to see the miracles they claim are going on here."
Prez: "Whaaa? Why don't you just believe what the Scriptures say about miracles?"

And then after the unbeliever had been converted to belief upon seeing a confirming miraculous manifestation of, for example, the "gift of prophecy", you'd be standing at the door as they were walking out of the service:

"So THERE. Are you happy finally? You 'Doubting Thomas' you". And then maybe you'd smack'em on the back of the head as they walked out.

samuel23 · Jan 23, 2017

Certainly the miracles that Jesus did was to show that He was God, however that was not the only reason. Jesus healed people because he had compassion on them and simply wanted to heal them, several times Jesus told those who were healed not to tell anyone. I was healed of a back problem many years ago, it may seem trivial to some but for me it was a big deal, not just because my back was made strong but also because I realized that God cared about me and wanted to help me. I realize that the Pentecostal movement has used fake healings to rake in the money, however God does actually heal folks at times, he healed me of that back trouble. I was also very sick of the flue one time when God healed me.

psalm6819 · Jan 23, 2017

Some of us do. Some don't recognize them. Some don't believe so............

wolfwint · Jan 23, 2017

presidente said:

As I response to RickyZ, i dont say we have no miracles today! And,as the title of this thread says: We dont see the miracles today like the apostle did. Otherwise give me a proof from the opposite.The scripture tells us that in the last days will come manu false prophets which will do great signs and miracles. I dont read that a christian should performe miracles. But he should love god, should love his next , should love his brother and should love his enemy.

wolfwint · Jan 23, 2017

popeye said:

OK,take that concept "Jesus lives with us"

That was the reality that existed with the Jewish religious leaders.HE BECAME FLESH AND LIVED WITH THEM.

Now,what did that particular Jesus say about how he AUTHENTICATED who he was and what he was?

Luke 7 20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

So,here we are,with a modern different Jesus who can no longer authenticate his ministry and existence outside a abstract theory of power,and mental salvation,since the second work of the Baptism in the HS is also off the table.

Thank you Jesus that I came into the kingdom during the charismatic movement,and have witnessed so many miracles and wonders. And thank you for the Baptism in the HS that I recd on mothers day 1977,with the gift of tongues which I enjoy and you enjoy.

(as if his wonders and works are some very bad thing)

Popeye, i never said Jesus is doing no miracles today. See my response to RickyZ. But you must confess we dont have them as the apostle had them in their days.And please explain: what is the second work of the Holy Spirit?

Demi777 · Jan 24, 2017

?? Where am I stating that I have a pastor? And since when is that a requirement? Your going a bit too far there brother.You are taking apart what I say from the meaning and out of the conversation. Well done
Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Now, theres a difference between doctrine which is manmade, and the Gospel of Christ which I was talking about manmade doctrine/tradition.
The church are ALL believers and not just some church.

aldy said:

Demi777 · Jan 24, 2017

Thanks brother. I already thought that but I wasnt sure

Grace777x70 said:

I agree with what you said here. It is important to follow the Lord and not get hung up on being "doctrinally perfect"...Well said!

I just want to comment on John 9:3 that you quoted above as it leaves the impression that the man was born blind so that the works of God could heal him and some translations make it "seem" that this is true.

In others words = He was made blind on purpose so that God could heal him. Not true.

John 9:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

The " it was " is initialized which means that it is not in the original Greek but was added by the translators. If you believed that sickness comes from God then they would add their own thoughts into the passage and so the added "It was" .

When you take the "it was " out and read it - it says something different.

"Neither this man sinned nor his parents. ( stop ) But that the works of God might be displayed in him I must work the works of God who sent Me while it is still day."

This shows a completely different meaning of that passage. Jesus is simply saying that the man was born blind had nothing to do with any person's sin but the important thing is for Jesus to heal him and do the works of His Father. That was the main thing to be looking at Jesus said.

Anyway....I just wanted to point that out as some people like to use this verse to say that God makes us sick and it is not true at all. I hate it when our Father's character is being mis-represented.

( I am not saying you were doing that but people use that verse to try to make it say that. )....

samuel23 · Jan 24, 2017

Grace777 We are to follow the Lord but not get hung up on being doctrinally correct? If you are speaking of man made doctrines then that is correct, if you are speaking of doctrine from the word of God you are incorrect.

Grace777x70 · Jan 24, 2017

samuel23 said:

We don't need to be "Doctrinally perfect". All the disciple had no clue about what Jesus was really doing. They were not "doctrinally correct" yet they were following Jesus.

Even years after Jesus ascended the apostles had no clue that the gentiles were included in the salvation work of Christ until a vision and some angels had to convince them otherwise. This same principle applies to all progressive truth that is in Christ as it is being revealed by the Holy Spirit to us.

I agree 100% about following man-made doctrines is a mess waiting to happen - the church is full of them.

stonesoffire · Jan 24, 2017

The thought just occurred to me that possibly expectancy has a lot to do with why we aren't receiving miracles as in the beginning.

Plus, with healing, America and other nations has expert medical facilities. Perhaps we've become more dependent on medicine than miracles? I actually think that God has increased knowledge for our good in these areas too.

Jesus never reprimanded anyone for going to doctors. Just commented on those who spent everything they had to obtain health. At least I can't think of Him doing it anywhere.

garee · Jan 24, 2017

The law informs us tongues are for those who believe not .(no faith) Prophecy for those who do believe. (have faith)

No such thing as a sign gift after some work we perform , rather than walking by the faith of Christ, as it is written (the unseen eternal.

Miracles were used to represent the gospel. Not one miracle was performed that was not used as a parable according to the law of faith ( Christ’s faith) below. And attributing that work to a apostles is to simply make the faith of Christ without effect and cause a person to commit blasphemy ( attributing the work of one to another).

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen “are temporal;” but the things which are not seen “are eternal”l.

What they saw with their eyes only provided the temporal the spirutl meaning was hid from those who believe not(no faith) . They all died to show they were under the wrath of God in respect to these bodies of death ,not receiving the promise. .

Who does not believe what the scriptures say? It informs in respect to now that we have the whole word of God, not in part.

Any new prophecies , They will fail (false prophecy.)There will be no new knowledge without new prophecy.New knowledge coming from false prophecy will vanish.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:18

Are you receiving new revelations as prophecy??

88 · Jan 24, 2017

stonesoffire said:

***** expectancy is a key----- in Africa if a person dies---- they bring the body to the man of God who has faith---- the dead are raised...

stonesoffire · Jan 24, 2017

I've read those testimonies, 88. Totally awesome what God will do when we are desperate for Him.

presidente · Jan 24, 2017

garee said:

The Bible teaches us that 'divers tongues' are given to members of the body of Christ 'for the common good.' So tongues are among the gifts given for those who believe.

Speaking in tongues is a sign to them that believe not. It fulfills a certain scripture.

You are interpreting I Corinthians 14:21 in a way that contradicts other scripture.

I don't know what you mean. I doubt anyone else does. Maybe if you used different prepositions and verbs to string your ideas together, we could figure it out.

Who do you think is doing that?

Also, notice the wording of Acts 28 in the KJV, emphasis mine.

8 And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.

Jesus also said, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers..." in Matthew 10.

In context, we know this came from the power of God. People are only instruments, not the source of power. But I don't see anyone in the thread even using this kind of terminology about Christians healing other people, though there are Biblical examples of it. I don't see anyone saying they heal people. So I don't get why you keep repeating this objection.

What doesyour argument about having the whole word, or your interpretation of a verse about prophecy have to do with the point I made. I made a point about the working of miracles.

I have pointed out that the scriptures teach that the Spirit gives these gifts to individuals in the body of Christ as the Spirit wills. Why don't you believe what the scripture says about this topic?

If you interpret the verse that way, you do away with one of your cessationist arguments. But it does not make sense that Paul would be saying all prophecies back when he wrote that chapter were false.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians, 'that by reading this, ye might understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ" (Eph 3:4.) By reading the scripture, we can hope to attain to the same level as the authors of scripture in regard to the mystery they teach. But it is not realistic to think that the apostles' knowledge will be so small in comparison to our own learned opinion that they will be children in comparison. But it does make sense that Paul, at the resurrection, or else when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God after the resurection, might consider his first century knowledge as a mortal to be childish by comparison.

I Corinthians 13
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Doing a miracle is not adding to the book of Revelation. That idea does not even make sense. When the two witnesses do miracles, they will not be adding to the book of Revelation. When they prophesy, they will not be adding to the book of Revelation either. No matter what interpretation system you use, you'd nearly have to see the two witnesses as coming after the last 'amen' at the end of the book of Revelation.

MattTooFor · Jan 24, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Even if it were true the disciples were unaware the gentiles were included in salvation (which I don't believe is the case, based on what we see in Acts 2, for example) that wouldn't make them doctrinally incorrect. It would just mean the doctrine didn't exist yet.

There is certainly a move afoot to get 'doctrinally sloppy' these days. It's becoming 'all the rage'...with big-wigs like Rick Warren and Tony Campolo encouraging people to put aside their Christian "doctrinal distinctives", so we can all join hands and sing "kum ba yah" with Muslims and gays.

Tony Campolo: Why gay Christians should be fully accepted into the Church

CHRISLAM’S Rick Warren Partnering With Mosques To Teach That God and Allah Are The Same

We should love all gays and Muslims as our neighbors...in fact, I have dozens of gay friends whom I live next to and work next to here in the San Francisco area...but not to give up our doctrinal distinctives.

RickyZ · Jan 24, 2017

wolfwint said:

Again, I'll object to your use of the term we when you mean I (as in you yourself)...

My wife and I spend a week on the beach every year. I love to bodysurf, but one year it had been flat and mushy and no good at all for days. Finally I did go in just to say I had gotten wet. But I just tread water there, bobbing like a cork, everyone else around me bobbing like corks, waiting for something to happen. I got to thinking, 'gee Lord, I hate to be self-wishing but it would be nice to have some waves’, but time goes by and the corks keep bobbing. So again at some point I muse, Jesus, if it'd be in Your grace, could we have some waves..? But of course time passes and the corks keep bobbing. So my head is getting burnt, the rest of me is waterlogged, I'm thinking gee God if I can just have one wave so I don't have to swim back to shore... And these words come to me, in my spirit - "what do you keep asking Me for? You know better than that. You know you have My authority to call the waves up". So I laugh, and think You're absolutely right; so I faced out to sea and said "in Jesus' Name, how about some waves". A minute goes by, 2, and here they come. The best set of the week. Wave after wave after wave after wave... I caught several good rides, then when I stopped to catch my breath I saw that lots of people were getting lots of good rides. Kids that had been standing around in the equivalent of a kiddie pool were now chasing each other thru the surf, and there was a whole different Spirit in the water. I laughed and said "Amen Lord, thank You for all of these". A kid next to me says "what's that mister?" "I think God decided we needed to be having more fun out here." "Yeah, the waves are really energetic now!" Amen kid, I laughed, they sure are. It went on just long enough to wear everyone out, then it went back to flat and mushy for pretty much the rest of the week.

So how do we test this one? There was a word of knowledge, followed by an act of faith in Jesus’ Name, bringing about the working of a miracle – culminating in God’s power being confirmed to a boy who already recognized that something was going on.

Is this not a miracle along the lines of what the Apostles saw?

RickyZ · Jan 24, 2017

In reference to the question of teaching and doctrines, I tend to think that teaching is something we are meant to learn and put to use. Doctrine is what you get when man takes a teaching and wraps it up with a pretty little bow for his own use. One is fruitful, the other not usually so much.

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

aldy

Guest

MattTooFor

Guest

Senior Member

MattTooFor

Guest

Banned

psalm6819

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Poetic Member

Banned

Senior Member

Poetic Member

Senior Member

MattTooFor

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member