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maxwel

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Apr 18, 2013
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I also want to add, that of course, not all reformed people give this kind of answer for evangelism.

Many great reformed missionaries of the past had a great and burning desire to share Christ with the heathen, with the fervent hope they would choose to accept the gospel.

Now oddly enough, that really sounds more like Arminian theology.

How odd is that.

I'm not saying any of this to criticize.
I love reading about the great missionaries of the past, and I enjoy many reformed preachers of the present.
But it's fascinating how God works in our hearts, and in our lives, regardless of some of these philosophical paradigms.
 
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Brother 'clops...

Without the preaching of the gospel, none would be saved. That's why we are so missions minded.

When asked about those who died never hearing the gospel, the pat answer from the non-Calvinists is Romans 1:20, which is NOT saying what they are thinking it is saying.
 
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Brother 'clops...

Without the preaching of the gospel, none would be saved. That's why we are so missions minded.

When asked about those who died never hearing the gospel, the pat answer from the non-Calvinists is Romans 1:20, which is NOT saying what they are thinking it is saying.
Good old Romans 1:20 and inserted mysticism.

It always boils down to taking the Scriptures out of context, and trying to get God off the hook, because, well, he's God and does as he pleases. This instead of humility before God in fear of his person, accepting him in all his glory. That's the missing element.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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Good solid Calvinists have always been very missions-focused, and very evangelical.



Now, I'm not sure why, and I'm not at all convinced it's philosophically consistent.
In fact, I've heard reformed preachers say, "I don't have a good explanation for why I must evangelize if all the people who are getting saved are completely predestined to get saved regardless of what I do... but God said to evangelize, and so I do it."
To me that's a weird, but a very honest, and very faithful answer.

Now, if somebody's only reason for evangelism is just that God said to do it,
that may seem weird to me personally,
but I really can't find any fault there.

If a man is being faithful to God, then I should appreciate and respect that.

Again, I'm not convinced it is really philosophically consistent...
but I just can't find any fault with a person faithfully serving God and preaching the gospel.


To me... this is all really interesting.
In my own personal experience, I find that Calvinsts and Arminians who are genuine believers, all get up each day and live their lives pretty much identically.

This isn't to say doctrine is unimportant; the bible says it is.
But if we are all being led by the spirit, and being conformed to the image of Christ... we're going to end up doing a lot of the same things.

hi, max, i'm wondering why you feel Reformed theology is more philosophy than theology?

(with apologies for derailing... don't know where else to ask. :eek:)

i appreciate your graciousness in this thread! just wanted to add all the Reformed i know (which, i grant you, doesn't number in the thousands or anything) share the Gospel because God commanded it, yes, and because we really, actually love other people and want to see as many come to Christ as may be.

but i think another, more cogent reason is in 1 Cor 1:21. we know we ourselves heard the message preached, and believed, and this is the method by which God has ordained men and women, boys and girls, come to Christ.

thank God for that beautiful 'foolishness'. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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You should study more.....for example....ALL of the ones wiped out by Joshua without any opportunity to hear the word of God and or a chance to repent and acknowledge the God of heaven..........Did Noah preach to the entire world that perished?
Actually Joshua and Noah preached to the world through their faith in God. The whole world knows of Christ even those who hate Christ preach about Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Repost: grammar

Here's one for the Preacher,

Spurgeon's Quotes:

Those particularly on Calvinism vs Arminianism and the Doctrines of Grace

"George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists." (Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124)

On Irresistible Grace
:
I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34)

Attribute:
Spurgeon's Quotes |The Reformed Reader

Still asking questions that you don't care about. How about the Panthers?
Can you put the pieces together? I have said that Genesis 3 makes man responsible to choose and now some are beginning to see that even the reformers had this basic truth in their thinking.

The reformation was not about Calvin verses Arminius. The reformation was about the truth of scripture over church (Roman Catholic Church) traditions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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The evidence has been provided so many times, but you gloss over it and just keep repeating the same claims while YOU do not EVER provide any evidence, because none exists. The furthest you can go with this is the 400s with Augustine, that is it!

All of the following BEFORE Augustine, on top the clear biblical "choose this day whom ye shall serve" and whosoeverwills and "but ye would not"s. It is impossible to miss it while reading the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, the testimony is clear, Jesus tells the churches repent OR, indicating everytime that we have the ABILITY to obey, if God caused that repentance as matthew henry quotes, then it is all meaningless and God is just wasting His breath asking people who cannot obey, to obey, completely nonsensical.

Here are the documents: (I am not catholic, just a heads up)

185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42)
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21)
190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)
250-300 AD Archelaus "All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33)
260-315 AD Methodius "Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils. " (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)

Ignatius 35-107A.D.
I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but all humanity is made the same, sometimes belonging to God and sometimes to the devil. If anyone is truly spiritual they are a person of God; but if they are irreligious and not spiritual then they are a person of the devil, made such not by nature, but by their own choice. Pg.61 vol. 1.


There is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.


Clement of Alexandria 150-208A.D
We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 217)


To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 353)


Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame. (c.195, Vol. 2, p. 226)


Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p.319)


We have heard from the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men. Therefore, we rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 349)


The Lord clearly shows sins and transgressions to be in our own power, by prescribing modes of cure corresponding to the maladies. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 363)


Their estrangement is the result of free choice. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 426)


Believing and obeying are in our own power. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 527)


Nor will he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate. But above all, he will speed to salvation voluntarily and of free choice. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 534)


Choice depends on the man as being free. But the gift depended on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing, are exceedingly earnest, and who ask. In this manner, their salvation can become their own. For God does not compel. (c. 195, Vol. 2, p. 593)

Clement 80-140A.D.
Thus although we are born neither good nor bad, we become on or the other and having formed habits, we are with difficulty drawn from them. Pg 273 vol.8


But inasmuch as inborn affection towards God the creator is sufficient for salvation to those who love Him, the enemy tries to pervert this affection in men, and to render them hostile and ungrateful to their Creator…But if mankind would turn their affection towards God, all would doubtless be saved, even if when they have some faults they would be open to correction for righteousness, but now most of mankind have been made enemies of God, their hearts the wicked one has entered, and has turned aside towards himself the affection which God the Creator had implanted in them, which He, God, desires that they might have towards Him. Pg.101 Vol.8


1 Clement 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.


1 Clement 7:5 Let us review all the generations in turn, and learn how from generation to generation the Master hath given a place for repentance unto them that desire to turn to Him.


For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey His commandments. 2 Clement 6:7


…with what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works? 2 Clement 6:9

Quotes like that are PLENTIFUL to be found before Augustine, but this post is long enough. So now I have once again provided the evidence which you overlook, that calvinism is in fact a brand new, fresh out of the oven signs of the times GARBAGE TIER theology.
Now give me the evidence or keep quiet and stop responding to me. You have been given the "documents" so my job here is done, you can keep roleplaying James White and acting like a tough guy online. Have fun.
 
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Actually Joshua and Noah preached to the world through their faith in God. The whole world knows of Christ even those who hate Christ preach about Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I am fairly confident that Joshua did not stand on the wall of Jericho and preach the Hebrew God of heaven before he wiped the city out....as there was no such command recorded in scripture.....nor is there any indication that NOAH while BUILDING the ark went around spreading the gospel.....to the ENTIRE WORLD that GOD decided to WIPE OUT........
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I am fairly confident that Joshua did not stand on the wall of Jericho and preach the Hebrew God of heaven before he wiped the city out....as there was no such command recorded in scripture.....nor is there any indication that NOAH while BUILDING the ark went around spreading the gospel.....to the ENTIRE WORLD that GOD decided to WIPE OUT........
Yeah I hear what you’re saying here…However, we can be sure that God’s people in the wilderness, who came out of Egypt, heard the preaching and also we can be sure that all around Noah heard his preaching for a 100 years or so…They were all given a chance to listen and obey… and they all made their own choices there.

We know that was the Old Covenant and God did have chosen people then…The New Covenant changed all that because Jesus died for all… Jews, Greeks, black, white, and whosoever else that will come and listen and believe and take of the water of life freely will be saved.

Jesus came so that the Gospel was opened up to all not just the Jews. Now we all have a chance to be saved because of the blood of the Lamb that was shed for all men kind.

This is how I view it, anyhow….
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I am fairly confident that Joshua did not stand on the wall of Jericho and preach the Hebrew God of heaven before he wiped the city out....as there was no such command recorded in scripture.....nor is there any indication that NOAH while BUILDING the ark went around spreading the gospel.....to the ENTIRE WORLD that GOD decided to WIPE OUT........
And yet the harlot Rahab heard of the Lord without Joshua ever speaking a word. The fame of the Lord goes before His name.

They are all without excuse as the glory of God is revealed in all of creation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Still asking questions that you don't care about. How about the Panthers?
HAHA thus made me think of the Penrith Panthers.....the footy team in Penrith Australia is called the panthers.....
 
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Actually Joshua and Noah preached to the world through their faith in God. The whole world knows of Christ even those who hate Christ preach about Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
and will add....the last statement reeks of ignorance....the whole world does not know about Christ and or what was accomplished by him on the cross....I have personally met people who had no clue of who Jesus was and or what he has done!
 
D

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Cool, I've forgotten what the argument was even about.

Here it is to refresh my memory:









Yes, after study we do. Was it Whitefield that said we are all arminians at first, but by the grace of God we become Calvinists? Or maybe it was Spurgeon. I can't remember that, either.
I don't know, but you're asking the Calvinist who doesn't read much by Calvinists. (I love Spurgeon's devotionals but Whitefield, Calvin, John Owens, Boettner, and Van Til are all above my brain level.)
 
D

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You may believe that God sends some to Hell without any opportunity to be saved if you wish, but that does not describe the God of my Bible, nor the God I worship.
Did you read what I said?

At this point I'm deciding whether you embrace your ignorance or if you think lying is a good trait for a supposed believer.
 
D

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Don't assume you are more mature in the Word than those who disagree with you.
I can make the same assumption of you for what you believe.
There I agree with you, because "assumption" is where you go all the time, so far.
 
D

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Do you Calvinist even bother to witness to others? If you do, WHY? Is it not a waste of time on your part?
Already covered. Scroll down the list on this forum. I did a poll on that very question last week.
 
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And yet the harlot Rahab heard of the Lord without Joshua ever speaking a word. The fame of the Lord goes before His name.

They are all without excuse as the glory of God is revealed in all of creation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
One person hearing of the Children of Israel does not equal the word being preached or them having a chance to repent and acknowledge the LORD....quit grasping at straws and acknowledge the truth of my original statement......it behooves you to once in a while to humble yourself and admit the truth posted by one other than yourself!
 
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Because Calvinist Movie will probably end up being discussed like a BDF topic. It will make a few a little angry because their fragile theology will be challenged and refuted.
Movies important to you for your faith?

[video=youtube;WFS9m5pTll4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFS9m5pTll4[/video]