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First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there. That being said, read on.
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Matthew 7:21-24 (New International Version
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version,
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (New International Version,
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Colossians 2:18 (King James Version)
18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(basically, this means someone created a vision in their own mind, while God states simply that they are disillusions, and not from Him.)
Jeremiah 14:14-16 (King James Version)
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
Anyone getting a point here? I should have put them all in KJV quotes, but some are stated better in NIV, while others are clearly stated better in KJV. If you'd like, just type in the passage in google and you'll find the KJV if you don't like NIV.
Anyway, none of this directly refutes the Holy Spirit giving anyone the ability to speak in Tongues or Prophesy (tongues often do both) in today's world, so I'll get into that. I just wanted to give a few clear quotes to show the obvious.
Anyway, the purpose of speaking in tongues in the early Church (Book of Acts up to about 100 ADish) was to give miracles to edify and give proof that Christianity is the truth. Back then, unlike today's world, Christianity was a largely budding and 'niche' religion, being strictly a Judaism subculture, with a few Gentiles mixed in here and there. Obviously, the Apostles traveled the world to spread the Word, but the Early Church NEEDED these miracles to give proof. The Bible had not been created as of yet (aside from the Old Testament books, of which Moses wrote the first 5, others wrote the books that followed, and Christianity needed every miracle God could give it to give proof. The overall consensus was that EVERYONE that saw these miracles AGREED that they were real, and NO ONE could refute them, not even the enemies of Christianity. They were entirely supernatural AND instant. You don't see that in today's world, where most miracles either can be explained away with science, take months to happen (healing), or overall seem to be based on emotion rather than supernatural anything.
Before I continue, I want to explain one thing. Charismatic churches feed on EMOTION. This is an obvious truth, but emotion isn't what God is about. It is stated many times in the Bible that emotion is something God gives to IMMATURE Christians, who are like babies in their faith. When a Christian grows spiritually, God moves away from giving you strictly emotional feelings and gives you stronger pillars to build your faith/spiritual life upon. Once again, emotion is for spiritually immature Christians, and it is NOT the deciding force to make you an "elite" spiritually mature christian, as many charismatic/pentecostal churches would have their members believe. Don't fall into that trap where if you don't feel all emotional when you pray, that God isn't with you or hears you. That mistake is often made by new Christians and/or Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians. It is wrong.
To add to that before I move on, Isaiah lived off emotions and feelings as well, and look what happened to him. One minute, his faith was so strong that he was absolutely destroying the followers of Baal in their little "test" of God, but the next he is running/hiding for his life, afraid of evil spirits following him, simply because he lacked spiritual faith once the "feeling" of God departed him. Don't fall into that trap. God will depart from you quite a bit, if only to test your faith and/or make you stronger spiritually. Anyway....
Reasons Speaking In Tongues In Today's World/Time is False:
Here's a passage to ponder over while you read on:
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (New International Version,
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 1011 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The first thing we need to know is: What IS speaking in tongues?
The 5 Bible Quotes Supporting Speaking in Tongues:
First:
Mark 16:17-20 (New International Version,
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Second:
Acts 2:4-8 (New International Version,
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Notice a key point here: Those that spoke in tongues each spoke in a REAL language, one that they never would have known naturally, and yet other foreigners in the crowd recognized it. Modern speaking in tongues is usually complete gibberish (and most Pentecostals will agree with that statement), and it has little to no real life language (past or present) to support it. It is merely gibberish, plain and simple. Is it a coincidence that the Apostles spoke in Tongues of real languages that foreigners could understand, while today's speakers say gibberish that only select few interpreters can? Coincidence? Is it that hard to understand WHY the Apostles would need to speak in tongues to foreigners that possibly didn't understand Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic to bring them the Word of God? Coincidence?
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Matthew 7:21-24 (New International Version
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version,
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (New International Version,
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Colossians 2:18 (King James Version)
18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(basically, this means someone created a vision in their own mind, while God states simply that they are disillusions, and not from Him.)
Jeremiah 14:14-16 (King James Version)
14Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.
Anyone getting a point here? I should have put them all in KJV quotes, but some are stated better in NIV, while others are clearly stated better in KJV. If you'd like, just type in the passage in google and you'll find the KJV if you don't like NIV.
Anyway, none of this directly refutes the Holy Spirit giving anyone the ability to speak in Tongues or Prophesy (tongues often do both) in today's world, so I'll get into that. I just wanted to give a few clear quotes to show the obvious.
Anyway, the purpose of speaking in tongues in the early Church (Book of Acts up to about 100 ADish) was to give miracles to edify and give proof that Christianity is the truth. Back then, unlike today's world, Christianity was a largely budding and 'niche' religion, being strictly a Judaism subculture, with a few Gentiles mixed in here and there. Obviously, the Apostles traveled the world to spread the Word, but the Early Church NEEDED these miracles to give proof. The Bible had not been created as of yet (aside from the Old Testament books, of which Moses wrote the first 5, others wrote the books that followed, and Christianity needed every miracle God could give it to give proof. The overall consensus was that EVERYONE that saw these miracles AGREED that they were real, and NO ONE could refute them, not even the enemies of Christianity. They were entirely supernatural AND instant. You don't see that in today's world, where most miracles either can be explained away with science, take months to happen (healing), or overall seem to be based on emotion rather than supernatural anything.
Before I continue, I want to explain one thing. Charismatic churches feed on EMOTION. This is an obvious truth, but emotion isn't what God is about. It is stated many times in the Bible that emotion is something God gives to IMMATURE Christians, who are like babies in their faith. When a Christian grows spiritually, God moves away from giving you strictly emotional feelings and gives you stronger pillars to build your faith/spiritual life upon. Once again, emotion is for spiritually immature Christians, and it is NOT the deciding force to make you an "elite" spiritually mature christian, as many charismatic/pentecostal churches would have their members believe. Don't fall into that trap where if you don't feel all emotional when you pray, that God isn't with you or hears you. That mistake is often made by new Christians and/or Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians. It is wrong.
To add to that before I move on, Isaiah lived off emotions and feelings as well, and look what happened to him. One minute, his faith was so strong that he was absolutely destroying the followers of Baal in their little "test" of God, but the next he is running/hiding for his life, afraid of evil spirits following him, simply because he lacked spiritual faith once the "feeling" of God departed him. Don't fall into that trap. God will depart from you quite a bit, if only to test your faith and/or make you stronger spiritually. Anyway....
Reasons Speaking In Tongues In Today's World/Time is False:
Here's a passage to ponder over while you read on:
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (New International Version,
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 1011 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The first thing we need to know is: What IS speaking in tongues?
The 5 Bible Quotes Supporting Speaking in Tongues:
First:
Mark 16:17-20 (New International Version,
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Second:
Acts 2:4-8 (New International Version,
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Notice a key point here: Those that spoke in tongues each spoke in a REAL language, one that they never would have known naturally, and yet other foreigners in the crowd recognized it. Modern speaking in tongues is usually complete gibberish (and most Pentecostals will agree with that statement), and it has little to no real life language (past or present) to support it. It is merely gibberish, plain and simple. Is it a coincidence that the Apostles spoke in Tongues of real languages that foreigners could understand, while today's speakers say gibberish that only select few interpreters can? Coincidence? Is it that hard to understand WHY the Apostles would need to speak in tongues to foreigners that possibly didn't understand Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic to bring them the Word of God? Coincidence?
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Well.... I found if I edit it like 10000 times, I can go paragraph by paragraph, editing in one at a time. Still... I only have FIVE MINUTES to do it all, which leaves me unable to quote, italicize, or bold any of the scripture. That bothers me.
MODS: Until you fix the forums, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove the 5 minute "edit" time limit? I don't like having to cut my long post into 100 different posts and/or edit it 100 times only to STILL not be able to finish it all in time.
MODS: Until you fix the forums, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove the 5 minute "edit" time limit? I don't like having to cut my long post into 100 different posts and/or edit it 100 times only to STILL not be able to finish it all in time.
D
Anyway, I'll continue... since my post is basically ruined. Take these posts as if it was part of the OP, if you care to read it that is!
Third:
Acts 2:5-12 (New International Version,
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[a] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Fourth:
Acts 10:44-48 (New International Version,
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Fifth:
Acts 19:2-6 (New International Version,
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's go over it.
First passage: (1) Casting out demons; (2) speaking with new tongues; (3) picking up serpents; (4) drinking deadly poison; and (5) healing the sick. Jesus promised that this would happen, and they did. The reason for this was so that the Apostles could go forth and preach, and they used miracles to affirm what they preached was true. After the counsel of Nicea, when the Bible was finally formed as a whole, these gifts weren't needed. Why would they be? The Bible is the ultimate proof. It is the ultimate miracle. It is the ultimate Truth. Miracles aren't needed as "proof" any longer, as the Bible does away with the need for supernatural signs. Also, the bible is translated in every known language in the world as I speak, so the passage I already gave:
1 Corinthians 13:12 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
clearly shows that these past "gifts" will cease (at least in a large majority), because they are not needed any longer. Speaking in Tongues as "proof" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or being saved is false doctrine!
Also, a little tidbit of knowledge: Mormons, Latter-Day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to speak in tongues and prophesy as part of their doctrine. Are they also baptized in the Holy Spirit and saved?
One more interesting tidbit: The Biblical Church of Corinth was blessed with more gifts of the Spirit than any other in documented history. Did the bible say that they were spiritually mature "elite" Christians? Let's read:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (New International Version,
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
1 Corinthians 14 (New International Version,
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Third:
Acts 2:5-12 (New International Version,
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[a] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Fourth:
Acts 10:44-48 (New International Version,
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Fifth:
Acts 19:2-6 (New International Version,
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's go over it.
First passage: (1) Casting out demons; (2) speaking with new tongues; (3) picking up serpents; (4) drinking deadly poison; and (5) healing the sick. Jesus promised that this would happen, and they did. The reason for this was so that the Apostles could go forth and preach, and they used miracles to affirm what they preached was true. After the counsel of Nicea, when the Bible was finally formed as a whole, these gifts weren't needed. Why would they be? The Bible is the ultimate proof. It is the ultimate miracle. It is the ultimate Truth. Miracles aren't needed as "proof" any longer, as the Bible does away with the need for supernatural signs. Also, the bible is translated in every known language in the world as I speak, so the passage I already gave:
1 Corinthians 13:12 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
clearly shows that these past "gifts" will cease (at least in a large majority), because they are not needed any longer. Speaking in Tongues as "proof" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or being saved is false doctrine!
Also, a little tidbit of knowledge: Mormons, Latter-Day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to speak in tongues and prophesy as part of their doctrine. Are they also baptized in the Holy Spirit and saved?
One more interesting tidbit: The Biblical Church of Corinth was blessed with more gifts of the Spirit than any other in documented history. Did the bible say that they were spiritually mature "elite" Christians? Let's read:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (New International Version,
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
1 Corinthians 14 (New International Version,
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
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D
Well... That's the gist of it everyone. I apologize the way it formatted. I wish I could have done better, but CC.COM does NOT allow me to post longer than a very short paragraph at a time. I had to edit it 100 times at least just to make those multiple posts. The scriptures aren't italicized or bolded like I'd like, but I didn't have time to edit them within the 5 minute time span. Please accept my apology if it is hard to read. I had it formatted originally to be much better than it is, but CC.COM will NOT cooperate with me 
Anyway, if anyone has any idea what I can do about the situation... please let me know. I clearly see others post things, but I seem to be unable to post longer than a few paragraph lines in each post and/or edit.
Oh, and that is just the start of what I've written, but I don't really have much patience with the way CC is acting right now. I'm positive it's a bug, but I don't know how to get around it within a 5 minute edit time span.
I really hope the MODS either fix this bug, or they change the 5 minute edit time frame, so that people who have longer posts like me can actually post coherently, even if they have to edit it 100 times to do so.
Anyway, if anyone has any idea what I can do about the situation... please let me know. I clearly see others post things, but I seem to be unable to post longer than a few paragraph lines in each post and/or edit.
Oh, and that is just the start of what I've written, but I don't really have much patience with the way CC is acting right now. I'm positive it's a bug, but I don't know how to get around it within a 5 minute edit time span.
I really hope the MODS either fix this bug, or they change the 5 minute edit time frame, so that people who have longer posts like me can actually post coherently, even if they have to edit it 100 times to do so.
D
That could be it. I like to copy/paste scripture from online bibles, since typing it out is not only time consuming, but I could also be prone to making mistakes, which is a definite no no when it comes to scripture.
Maybe that is it, but even still, I am unable to post anything beyond a couple of lines even without special characters. I'll try to remove the trademarks and see what happens though! Wish me luck!
If it works, I'll probably create a new post, since this is a mess right now
---TEST POST----
First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there. That being said, read on.
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Matthew 7:21-24 (NIV)
21
Maybe that is it, but even still, I am unable to post anything beyond a couple of lines even without special characters. I'll try to remove the trademarks and see what happens though! Wish me luck!
If it works, I'll probably create a new post, since this is a mess right now
---TEST POST----
First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there. That being said, read on.
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Matthew 7:21-24 (NIV)
21
D
That could be it. I like to copy/paste scripture from online bibles, since typing it out is not only time consuming, but I could also be prone to making mistakes, which is a definite no no when it comes to scripture.
Maybe that is it, but even still, I am unable to post anything beyond a couple of lines even without special characters. I'll try to remove the trademarks and see what happens though! Wish me luck!
If it works, I'll probably create a new post, since this is a mess right now
---TEST POST----
First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there. That being said, read on.
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Anyone getting a point here? I should have put them all in KJV quotes, but some are stated better in NIV, while others are clearly stated better in KJV. If you'd like, just type in the passage in google and you'll find the KJV if you don't like NIV.
Anyway, none of this directly refutes the Holy Spirit giving anyone the ability to speak in Tongues or Prophesy (tongues often do both) in today's world, so I'll get into that. I just wanted to give a few clear quotes to show the obvious.
Anyway, the purpose of speaking in tongues in the early Church (Book of Acts up to about 100 ADish) was to give miracles to edify and give proof that Christianity is the truth. Back then, unlike today's world, Christianity was a largely budding and 'niche' religion, being strictly a Judaism subculture, with a few Gentiles mixed in here and there. Obviously, the Apostles traveled the world to spread the Word, but the Early Church NEEDED these miracles to give proof. The Bible had not been created as of yet (aside from the Old Testament books, of which Moses wrote the first 5, others wrote the books that followed, and Christianity needed every miracle God could give it to give proof. The overall consensus was that EVERYONE that saw these miracles AGREED that they were real, and NO ONE could refute them, not even the enemies of Christianity. They were entirely supernatural AND instant. You don't see that in today's world, where most miracles either can be explained away with science, take months to happen (healing), or overall seem to be based on emotion rather than supernatural anything.
Before I continue, I want to explain one thing. Charismatic churches feed on EMOTION. This is an obvious truth, but emotion isn't what God is about. It is stated many times in the Bible that emotion is something God gives to IMMATURE Christians, who are like babies in their faith. When a Christian grows spiritually, God moves away from giving you strictly emotional feelings and gives you stronger pillars to build your faith/spiritual life upon. Once again, emotion is for spiritually immature Christians, and it is NOT the deciding force to make you an "elite" spiritually mature christian, as many charismatic/pentecostal churches would have their members believe. Don't fall into that trap where if you don't feel all emotional when you pray, that God isn't with you or hears you. That mistake is often made by new Christians and/or Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians. It is wrong.
To add to that before I move on, Isaiah lived off emotions and feelings as well, and look what happened to him. One minute, his faith was so strong that he was absolutely destroying the followers of Baal in their little "test" of God, but the next he is running/hiding for his life, afraid of evil spirits following him, simply because he lacked spiritual faith once the "feeling" of God departed him. Don't fall into that trap. God will depart from you quite a bit, if only to test your faith and/or make you stronger spiritually. Anyway....
Reasons Speaking In Tongues In Today's World/Time is False:
Here's a passage to ponder over while you read on:
The first thing we need to know is: What IS speaking in tongues?
The 5 Bible Quotes Supporting Speaking in Tongues:
First:
Mark 16:17-20 (NIV)
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Second:
Acts 2:4-8 (NIV)
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Notice a key point here: Those that spoke in tongues each spoke in a REAL language, one that they never would have known naturally, and yet other foreigners in the crowd recognized it. Modern speaking in tongues is usually complete gibberish (and most Pentecostals will agree with that statement), and it has little to no real life language (past or present) to support it. It is merely gibberish, plain and simple. Is it a coincidence that the Apostles spoke in Tongues of real languages that foreigners could understand, while today's speakers say gibberish that only select few interpreters can? Coincidence? Is it that hard to understand WHY the Apostles would need to speak in tongues to foreigners that possibly didn't understand Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic to bring them the Word of God? Coincidence?
Third:
Acts 2:5-12 (NIV)
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[a] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Fourth:
Acts 10:44-48 (NIV)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Fifth:
Acts 19:2-6 (NIV)
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's go over it.
First passage: (1) Casting out demons; (2) speaking with new tongues; (3) picking up serpents; (4) drinking deadly poison; and (5) healing the sick. Jesus promised that this would happen, and they did. The reason for this was so that the Apostles could go forth and preach, and they used miracles to affirm what they preached was true. After the counsel of Nicea, when the Bible was finally formed as a whole, these gifts weren't needed. Why would they be? The Bible is the ultimate proof. It is the ultimate miracle. It is the ultimate Truth. Miracles aren't needed as "proof" any longer, as the Bible does away with the need for supernatural signs. Also, the bible is translated in every known language in the world as I speak, so the passage I already gave:
1 Corinthians 13:12 12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
clearly shows that these past "gifts" will cease (at least in a large majority), because they are not needed any longer. Speaking in Tongues as "proof" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or being saved is false doctrine!
Also, a little tidbit of knowledge: Mormons, Latter-Day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to speak in tongues and prophesy as part of their doctrine. Are they also baptized in the Holy Spirit and saved?
One more interesting tidbit: The Biblical Church of Corinth was blessed with more gifts of the Spirit than any other in documented history. Did the bible say that they were spiritually mature "elite" Christians? Let's read:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (NIV)
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
1 Corinthians 14 (NIV)
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Interesting.... I deleted half my copy/pasted scripture verses and it didn't cut me off any longer.... Hmmm. I think I'll rewrite them by hand and just create a new post.
Thanks for your help!
Mods... please delete this thread if you get a chance. I'm going to just create a new one that isn't such a mess!
Maybe that is it, but even still, I am unable to post anything beyond a couple of lines even without special characters. I'll try to remove the trademarks and see what happens though! Wish me luck!
If it works, I'll probably create a new post, since this is a mess right now
---TEST POST----
First of all, I'd like to state that every single denomination has some form of false man-made doctrine that really doesn't belong and shouldn't be taught. I'm focusing on one, but that doesn't justify, edify, and/or say any other denomination is better in any way. If you need to know, I'm non-denominational, because I view all denominations as a division in the church that shouldn't be there. That being said, read on.
I've thought about all of this for quite a long time, being mainly the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. For a LONG, LONG time, I pondered on why I haven't spoken in "tongues," prophesied, etc etc. I also always wondered how quite a few Pentecostal Doctrine churches specifically said a person had to speak in tongues to show proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved, especially since I KNEW I am and already had been saved for quite a long time. I've felt the Holy Spirit touch my life (as well as the negative kind for you who actively enjoy the gift (sometimes feels like a curse) of discernment out there), and I've never had doubts into my salvation. To add to that, many Pentecostal preachers would claim you are a spiritually "dead" Christian if you were not actively either A) Speaking in tongues B) Interpretating aforementioned gibberish tongues or C) rolling on the floor doing the chicken dance/foaming at the mouth and doing the stanky leg.
Mainly, I've come up with one distinct conclusion: A large majority of Pentecostalism is a false doctrine hypnosis emotion scam. I say this with a heavy heart, since I really don't want that to be true.
1. Speaking in Tongues - This is the most controversial aspect of all Pentecostalism, and the one that really sets them apart from almost all other denominations. Speaking in Tongues seems to be the "proof" aspect that many hold to with lockjaw. I guess, because of that, I should start here.
Anyone getting a point here? I should have put them all in KJV quotes, but some are stated better in NIV, while others are clearly stated better in KJV. If you'd like, just type in the passage in google and you'll find the KJV if you don't like NIV.
Anyway, none of this directly refutes the Holy Spirit giving anyone the ability to speak in Tongues or Prophesy (tongues often do both) in today's world, so I'll get into that. I just wanted to give a few clear quotes to show the obvious.
Anyway, the purpose of speaking in tongues in the early Church (Book of Acts up to about 100 ADish) was to give miracles to edify and give proof that Christianity is the truth. Back then, unlike today's world, Christianity was a largely budding and 'niche' religion, being strictly a Judaism subculture, with a few Gentiles mixed in here and there. Obviously, the Apostles traveled the world to spread the Word, but the Early Church NEEDED these miracles to give proof. The Bible had not been created as of yet (aside from the Old Testament books, of which Moses wrote the first 5, others wrote the books that followed, and Christianity needed every miracle God could give it to give proof. The overall consensus was that EVERYONE that saw these miracles AGREED that they were real, and NO ONE could refute them, not even the enemies of Christianity. They were entirely supernatural AND instant. You don't see that in today's world, where most miracles either can be explained away with science, take months to happen (healing), or overall seem to be based on emotion rather than supernatural anything.
Before I continue, I want to explain one thing. Charismatic churches feed on EMOTION. This is an obvious truth, but emotion isn't what God is about. It is stated many times in the Bible that emotion is something God gives to IMMATURE Christians, who are like babies in their faith. When a Christian grows spiritually, God moves away from giving you strictly emotional feelings and gives you stronger pillars to build your faith/spiritual life upon. Once again, emotion is for spiritually immature Christians, and it is NOT the deciding force to make you an "elite" spiritually mature christian, as many charismatic/pentecostal churches would have their members believe. Don't fall into that trap where if you don't feel all emotional when you pray, that God isn't with you or hears you. That mistake is often made by new Christians and/or Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians. It is wrong.
To add to that before I move on, Isaiah lived off emotions and feelings as well, and look what happened to him. One minute, his faith was so strong that he was absolutely destroying the followers of Baal in their little "test" of God, but the next he is running/hiding for his life, afraid of evil spirits following him, simply because he lacked spiritual faith once the "feeling" of God departed him. Don't fall into that trap. God will depart from you quite a bit, if only to test your faith and/or make you stronger spiritually. Anyway....
Reasons Speaking In Tongues In Today's World/Time is False:
Here's a passage to ponder over while you read on:
The first thing we need to know is: What IS speaking in tongues?
The 5 Bible Quotes Supporting Speaking in Tongues:
First:
Mark 16:17-20 (NIV)
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Second:
Acts 2:4-8 (NIV)
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Notice a key point here: Those that spoke in tongues each spoke in a REAL language, one that they never would have known naturally, and yet other foreigners in the crowd recognized it. Modern speaking in tongues is usually complete gibberish (and most Pentecostals will agree with that statement), and it has little to no real life language (past or present) to support it. It is merely gibberish, plain and simple. Is it a coincidence that the Apostles spoke in Tongues of real languages that foreigners could understand, while today's speakers say gibberish that only select few interpreters can? Coincidence? Is it that hard to understand WHY the Apostles would need to speak in tongues to foreigners that possibly didn't understand Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic to bring them the Word of God? Coincidence?
Third:
Acts 2:5-12 (NIV)
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[a] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Fourth:
Acts 10:44-48 (NIV)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Fifth:
Acts 19:2-6 (NIV)
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Now that we have that out of the way, let's go over it.
First passage: (1) Casting out demons; (2) speaking with new tongues; (3) picking up serpents; (4) drinking deadly poison; and (5) healing the sick. Jesus promised that this would happen, and they did. The reason for this was so that the Apostles could go forth and preach, and they used miracles to affirm what they preached was true. After the counsel of Nicea, when the Bible was finally formed as a whole, these gifts weren't needed. Why would they be? The Bible is the ultimate proof. It is the ultimate miracle. It is the ultimate Truth. Miracles aren't needed as "proof" any longer, as the Bible does away with the need for supernatural signs. Also, the bible is translated in every known language in the world as I speak, so the passage I already gave:
1 Corinthians 13:12 12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
clearly shows that these past "gifts" will cease (at least in a large majority), because they are not needed any longer. Speaking in Tongues as "proof" of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or being saved is false doctrine!
Also, a little tidbit of knowledge: Mormons, Latter-Day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses also claim to speak in tongues and prophesy as part of their doctrine. Are they also baptized in the Holy Spirit and saved?
One more interesting tidbit: The Biblical Church of Corinth was blessed with more gifts of the Spirit than any other in documented history. Did the bible say that they were spiritually mature "elite" Christians? Let's read:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (NIV)
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
1 Corinthians 14 (NIV)
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Interesting.... I deleted half my copy/pasted scripture verses and it didn't cut me off any longer.... Hmmm. I think I'll rewrite them by hand and just create a new post.
Thanks for your help!
Mods... please delete this thread if you get a chance. I'm going to just create a new one that isn't such a mess!
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First, have you ever stopped to think that you've never spoken in tongues because you have not ask for the gift of speaking in tongues? Second, did you ever ask your yourself if there is unrepentant sin in your life which grieves the Holy Spirit thus preventing you from walking in the power of the Holy Spirit seeing as the bible clearly teaches that God does not honor / anoint the works of sinful men? If the fruits of Holy Spirit are not evident in your life, such as obedience and faithfulness, what makes you think He can trust you with gifts of empowerment? God is not going to give you a gift if He's knows you will never put it to good use.
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I never said speaking in tongues was false. My post was cut off by some character bug, and since then I have used this thread as a "test" to see what the problem was.
That being said, I the real point of it all was that Pentecostalism teaches that you HAVE TO speak in tongues for proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved and/or spiritually "alive" or "dead."
That doctrine is false and wrong. The bible specifically states that not everyone will get the gift of speaking in tongues, and secondly, it is the LEAST of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in Tongues is not something you should strive for, but rather to strive for gifts that edify the church, not yourself. The fact that Pentecostalism teaches that speaking in tongues is one of the greatest gifts is in and of itself a false doctrine, and it is against what scripture teaches.
For this reason, you have already seen posts about how people have been grieved and almost lost all of their faith and confidence in God, simply because they could not speak in tongues while growing up in a Pentecostal church. The Holy Spirit works in us all in different ways as He sees fit, and so I truly believe this doctrine that Pentecostalism teaches is wrong and hurtful.
Also, I haven't had a chance to post it (I will when I recreate this thread without all the hiccups from the "bug"), but many charasmatic preachers give a "system" to practice to "learn" how to speak in tongues. What they teach is man made tongue twister gibberish, which is NOT the REAL gift of speaking in tongues. This happens quite a bit more than most people think, and when someone fakes it, it hurts the church, not helps it.
I'll get more into it when I finally create the next "real" thread. I apologize to everyone that posted in here. I take your responses as valuable and am glad I received encouragement from all of you, but I'm going to recreate the thread just for the sake of making it less muddied up with "tests."
Anyway, please don't mistake me from saying Speaking in Tongues is not real. It is, but it also isn't on the same level of what Pentecostalism teaches. Thanks
That being said, I the real point of it all was that Pentecostalism teaches that you HAVE TO speak in tongues for proof of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and/or saved and/or spiritually "alive" or "dead."
That doctrine is false and wrong. The bible specifically states that not everyone will get the gift of speaking in tongues, and secondly, it is the LEAST of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in Tongues is not something you should strive for, but rather to strive for gifts that edify the church, not yourself. The fact that Pentecostalism teaches that speaking in tongues is one of the greatest gifts is in and of itself a false doctrine, and it is against what scripture teaches.
For this reason, you have already seen posts about how people have been grieved and almost lost all of their faith and confidence in God, simply because they could not speak in tongues while growing up in a Pentecostal church. The Holy Spirit works in us all in different ways as He sees fit, and so I truly believe this doctrine that Pentecostalism teaches is wrong and hurtful.
Also, I haven't had a chance to post it (I will when I recreate this thread without all the hiccups from the "bug"), but many charasmatic preachers give a "system" to practice to "learn" how to speak in tongues. What they teach is man made tongue twister gibberish, which is NOT the REAL gift of speaking in tongues. This happens quite a bit more than most people think, and when someone fakes it, it hurts the church, not helps it.
I'll get more into it when I finally create the next "real" thread. I apologize to everyone that posted in here. I take your responses as valuable and am glad I received encouragement from all of you, but I'm going to recreate the thread just for the sake of making it less muddied up with "tests."
Anyway, please don't mistake me from saying Speaking in Tongues is not real. It is, but it also isn't on the same level of what Pentecostalism teaches. Thanks
D
Also, I believe, based on what you've said in this post, you are a Pentecostal/Charismatic yourself?
I never said I truly WANTED to speak in tongues, nor is it truly needed. Also, to assume I have a great sin in my life, because I am unable to speak in tongues (or really want to enough to pray for it, when scripture specifically states NOT to), is a bad thing to say.
To put it plainly, to assume a person that cannot speak in tongues either has NOT been baptized by the Holy Spirit (baptized by fire, as many call it), or I am living in deep sin, is part of the problem with the Pentecostal teachings. It is on the same level as in the Book of Job, where his friends said that Job was deep in sin and should repent, because THAT was the reason Job was being "tested/punished."
I'm not saying I am without sin, because no one is, but to assume I do not produce and receive the fruits of the Spirit because I do not speak in tongues.... that is... well.... It is wrong. I will just assume you mistook what I have said, since it is all over the place in this thread the way this "bug" has made my post cut off a thousand times. I hope this truly isn't how you think of me, however.
Also, may I add one thing: Speaking in Tongues is used for TWO purposes:
1. In the Early Church, it was used so that foreign language speakers, of which the Apostle/Disciple/Teacher didn't know the language, could connect and understand one another. The foreign speaker could understand the Word of God when it was being taught through speaking in tongues.
2. Praying through the Holy Spirit: This is self evident, however it only edifies yourself, rather than the church, which is the point. An interpreter is needed, or speaking in tongues is not only useless, but it is a distraction in the worship of the Lord. Speaking in tongues is and always will be the LEAST of all the gifts of the Spirit.
Just to add one thing: The gift of teaching is sometimes far more important, which I truly believe I have, or I wouldn't want to create these posts
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Also, I believe, based on what you've said in this post, you are a Pentecostal/Charismatic yourself?
I never said I truly WANTED to speak in tongues, nor is it truly needed. Also, to assume I have a great sin in my life, because I am unable to speak in tongues (or really want to enough to pray for it, when scripture specifically states NOT to), is a bad thing to say.
To put it plainly, to assume a person that cannot speak in tongues either has NOT been baptized by the Holy Spirit (baptized by fire, as many call it), or I am living in deep sin, is part of the problem with the Pentecostal teachings. It is on the same level as in the Book of Job, where his friends said that Job was deep in sin and should repent, because THAT was the reason Job was being "tested/punished."
I'm not saying I am without sin, because no one is, but to assume I do not produce and receive the fruits of the Spirit because I do not speak in tongues.... that is... well.... It is wrong. I will just assume you mistook what I have said, since it is all over the place in this thread the way this "bug" has made my post cut off a thousand times. I hope this truly isn't how you think of me, however.
Also, may I add one thing: Speaking in Tongues is used for TWO purposes:
1. In the Early Church, it was used so that foreign language speakers, of which the Apostle/Disciple/Teacher didn't know the language, could connect and understand one another. The foreign speaker could understand the Word of God when it was being taught through speaking in tongues.
2. Praying through the Holy Spirit: This is self evident, however it only edifies yourself, rather than the church, which is the point. An interpreter is needed, or speaking in tongues is not only useless, but it is a distraction in the worship of the Lord. Speaking in tongues is and always will be the LEAST of all the gifts of the Spirit.
Just to add one thing: The gift of teaching is sometimes far more important, which I truly believe I have, or I wouldn't want to create these posts
I never said I truly WANTED to speak in tongues, nor is it truly needed. Also, to assume I have a great sin in my life, because I am unable to speak in tongues (or really want to enough to pray for it, when scripture specifically states NOT to), is a bad thing to say.
To put it plainly, to assume a person that cannot speak in tongues either has NOT been baptized by the Holy Spirit (baptized by fire, as many call it), or I am living in deep sin, is part of the problem with the Pentecostal teachings. It is on the same level as in the Book of Job, where his friends said that Job was deep in sin and should repent, because THAT was the reason Job was being "tested/punished."
I'm not saying I am without sin, because no one is, but to assume I do not produce and receive the fruits of the Spirit because I do not speak in tongues.... that is... well.... It is wrong. I will just assume you mistook what I have said, since it is all over the place in this thread the way this "bug" has made my post cut off a thousand times. I hope this truly isn't how you think of me, however.
Also, may I add one thing: Speaking in Tongues is used for TWO purposes:
1. In the Early Church, it was used so that foreign language speakers, of which the Apostle/Disciple/Teacher didn't know the language, could connect and understand one another. The foreign speaker could understand the Word of God when it was being taught through speaking in tongues.
2. Praying through the Holy Spirit: This is self evident, however it only edifies yourself, rather than the church, which is the point. An interpreter is needed, or speaking in tongues is not only useless, but it is a distraction in the worship of the Lord. Speaking in tongues is and always will be the LEAST of all the gifts of the Spirit.
Just to add one thing: The gift of teaching is sometimes far more important, which I truly believe I have, or I wouldn't want to create these posts
As far as sin goes, I never suggested that you had sin in your life. I merely asked if there was some unrepentant sin and how such unrepentant sin can be a hinderance.
Case closed.
As for my personal beliefs, I am an Absolute Continuationist also known as a Pure Continuationist. We believe in Sola Scriptura in it's purest form. We do not believe in Dispensationalism or Sessationism, both of which are man made doctrines contrived to explain away aspects of scripture that do not line up their prefered man doctrinnes of compromise.
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Upon salvation everyone recieves a measure of the Holy Spirit. The disciples were saved when Christ was crucified yet they were not ready to fulfill the great commission. If they had Christ would not have commanded them to tarry in Jerusalem until they recieved "power from on high". When that power did indeed manifest they were able to speak to every person from various places in their own tongue despite never having learned that language prior. This no doubt still happens today for I know many people whom God used in this manner.
Think about it, if God felt that the gift of speaking in tongues was relevant 2000 years ago as people traveled hundreds and thousands of miles to spread the gospel, why wouldn't it be more even more relevant now that all one has to do to find people who speak different languages is to drive to the nearest apartment complex within minutes of your home?
Think about it, if God felt that the gift of speaking in tongues was relevant 2000 years ago as people traveled hundreds and thousands of miles to spread the gospel, why wouldn't it be more even more relevant now that all one has to do to find people who speak different languages is to drive to the nearest apartment complex within minutes of your home?
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The truth is that we are reliant on Christ in every aspect of Christianity. The Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of Christ's promise to be with us always, "Christ in us, the hope of glory". We are to abide in Christ daily for guidance, grace & the strength to overcome temptation. It only makes sense the we would seek God for empowerment to spread the gospel.
While I do not agree with every aspect of modern pentecostalism, I believe them to be closer to the biblical description of what a christian should live like than some of the other denominations which clearly embrace doctrines of compromise in order to embrace sinful lifestyles void of both the fruits and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.