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People don't become immoral, we are born in sin.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:2-3)
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:2-3)
He was speaking of something else...
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(Joh 10:7-9)
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(Joh 10:7-9)
T
True crossnote. We were never good from the beginning. However, I was saying that there will be a big distinction in the end I would guess between those who chose the one with goodness and those who did not. What if In The Lake of Fire, those who did not choose him will lose the privilege to be made in his image- thus making them lose all traces of goodness (meaning beauty, good choices, etc.). But true- it is different for angels and humans because angels were created as good.
T
ThomistColin- I guess why I am confused here is because I am trying to figure out where it says in Revelation that no more pain, no more suffering, etc. only stands for the New Earth. God says that he is making "all things new". Wouldnt that include heaven and hell? Wouldnt that also include people- Christians and non Christians?
T
ThomistColin- Yeah I suppose that is true. Universalism only goes as far as saying that everyone will be saved. And just as a sidenote: it never ever says how. Just that it will be....hmm..I dont know haha!
Crossnote: To answer your question, I think that there could be a lot of different answers to that. Some possibilities I guess could be that there are hierarchies in Heaven. We always speak of equality but martyrs get crowns in Heaven for instance and people are rewarded according to what they did. I think that there was a sense of not just getting into Heaven but going above and beyond to get into Heaven. So that could be a reason why. With universalism unbelievers let in would be just making it whereas people who decided to believe on Earth get rewarded abundantly in Heaven. That is just me coming up with one idea I guess...
And maybe another point is that those who dont believe will eventually. I guess its that even after death there is a second chance. Those who dont believe- some will fall on their faces and confess their sins while others will be reluctant for awhile and then obey? Im not sure actually haha
Crossnote: To answer your question, I think that there could be a lot of different answers to that. Some possibilities I guess could be that there are hierarchies in Heaven. We always speak of equality but martyrs get crowns in Heaven for instance and people are rewarded according to what they did. I think that there was a sense of not just getting into Heaven but going above and beyond to get into Heaven. So that could be a reason why. With universalism unbelievers let in would be just making it whereas people who decided to believe on Earth get rewarded abundantly in Heaven. That is just me coming up with one idea I guess...
And maybe another point is that those who dont believe will eventually. I guess its that even after death there is a second chance. Those who dont believe- some will fall on their faces and confess their sins while others will be reluctant for awhile and then obey? Im not sure actually haha
N
NiceneCreed- Thank you! Some scriptures would be lovely to look at 
ThomistColin- I am talking about physical evil not philosophical- Do you believe physical demonic forces exist I mean?
ThomistColin- I am talking about physical evil not philosophical- Do you believe physical demonic forces exist I mean?
P.S. I will most definitely get those scriptures for you as soon as possible. Is that okay if I send them to you via private e-mail?
N
Sure NiceneCreed! And thank you for asking me
No problem. I should get those to you within the next day or so. I have been real busy with a lot of things (and will continue to be for a couple of days), but I want to make sure I provide you with an adequate amount of verses, as well as exegetical interpretation of those verses (I hope). Thank you and God Bless!
Grace and Peace!
M
This is long so bear with me.
Last days of Preparation
>Increase of false prophets and religious compromise in the church
>Increase of crime and disregard of God's law
>Increase of wars,famines and earthquakes
>Decrease in love and family affection
>More severe persecution of God's people
>Those who stand firm will be saved
>Gospel will be preached to the whole world
>The Spirit will be poured out on God's people
The Rapture
>Believers must be prepared and wait constantly for this imminent event
>Christ will come expectantly, since the time cannot be calculated
>Christ will come to catch up believers living on Earth at this time
>Believers will be delivered from the upcoming wrath
>Believers living in this time will receive transformed bodies
>Believers who died before this event will rise up and be caught up with Christ
>All raptures saints will be judged by Christ
>Believers will be judged according to their deeds
>Faithful believers will revive rewards
>Less faithful believers will not be condemned but will receive little to no reward
The Tribulation
>The faithful in Christs churches will be kept from this time of trial
>Will begin after the restrainer is taken out of the way
>Will begin after the secret power of lawlessness intensifies
>Will begin after the great rebellion against the faith occurs
>The anti-Christ(man of lawlessness) will appear
>Will begin with the opening of the seven seals
>A time of world distress
>Will last for seven years
>False prophets will perform great signs and miracles
>The gospel will be preached by Angels and possibly Jews
>People will be saved during these days
>Many Jews will turn to Christ
>Those who had opportunity to believe in Jesus before the rapture will have no further opportunity to repent
>Will be a time of persecution for all who are faithful to Jesus
The Great Tribulation
Last three and a half years of "The Tribulation"
>Will begin with the abomination who causes desolation standing in the Holy Temple
>Demons activity will increase greatly
>Sorcery and witchcraft will increase greatly
>Cosmos events related to the sun, moon and stars will occur
>Religious deceit will be widespread
>Time of terrible suffering for the Jews
>The world's worst and most intense time of worldwide distress
>God will extend his wrath on the ungodly
>The Apostate church will be destroyed
>Two Witnesses who preached the Word and were killed will be Resurrected
>End of the Tribulation can be known by definite signs
>Will end at the Battle of Armageddon and God's full wrath on the ungodly
>Christ will triumph over the anti-Christ and his armies
The Anti-Christ
>Ruler during the great tribulation who controls the entire world
>An incredibly wicked person "a man of lawlessness and sin"
>Decribed as a beast
>Will set up an image of himself in the temple and demand worship
>Will exercise miracles through the power of Satan
>Will have the ability to deceive nations
>Will be assisted by the faith prophet (the beast of the Earth)
>Who will kill the two witnesses who proclaimed the Gospel
>Will attempt to kill everyone who does not have the mark of the beast
>Will eventually destroy the religious system with wich he was aligned
>Will be defeated by Christ when Christ returns to Earth to establish his kingdom
Christ's Glorious Appearing from Heaven to Judge and Wage War
>Christ will return with believers and his angels
>Christ will gather the Tribulation Saints
>Unbelievers will be unprepared for this event
>Christ will separate peoples on Earth
>Nations will be enraged at this event
>Saints will rejoice at this event
>Christ will judge and destroy the ungodly, including the anti-Christ and Satan
>Tribulation saints will receive rewards
>Tribulation saints will share in Christ's glory and kingdom
The Millennium
>Satan will be bound
>Tribulation saints(and possibly Old Testament saints) will rise from the dead
>The church and all marytered tribulation saints will reign with Christ
>Christ will reign on Earth over the tribulation saints alive at his coming
>Time span of reign will be a thousand years
>God's children will have rest
>Nature will be restored to its original form and perfection
>Satan will be released for a brief time at the end of the Millennium
>Will end with Christ returning turning over the kingdom to his Father
The Final Judgment
>Final battle of Gog and Magog
>All the wicked will be raised from the dead to face the judgment
>The great white throne judgment
>All God's enemies will be put in the lake of fire
The New Heavens and Earth
>God will destroy the present Earth
>God will create a new Heavens and new Earth
>God will wipe away all effects of sin
>New Earth will become the new Headquarters of God
If you want any specific scripture, I'd be happy to type it down :3
Last days of Preparation
>Increase of false prophets and religious compromise in the church
>Increase of crime and disregard of God's law
>Increase of wars,famines and earthquakes
>Decrease in love and family affection
>More severe persecution of God's people
>Those who stand firm will be saved
>Gospel will be preached to the whole world
>The Spirit will be poured out on God's people
The Rapture
>Believers must be prepared and wait constantly for this imminent event
>Christ will come expectantly, since the time cannot be calculated
>Christ will come to catch up believers living on Earth at this time
>Believers will be delivered from the upcoming wrath
>Believers living in this time will receive transformed bodies
>Believers who died before this event will rise up and be caught up with Christ
>All raptures saints will be judged by Christ
>Believers will be judged according to their deeds
>Faithful believers will revive rewards
>Less faithful believers will not be condemned but will receive little to no reward
The Tribulation
>The faithful in Christs churches will be kept from this time of trial
>Will begin after the restrainer is taken out of the way
>Will begin after the secret power of lawlessness intensifies
>Will begin after the great rebellion against the faith occurs
>The anti-Christ(man of lawlessness) will appear
>Will begin with the opening of the seven seals
>A time of world distress
>Will last for seven years
>False prophets will perform great signs and miracles
>The gospel will be preached by Angels and possibly Jews
>People will be saved during these days
>Many Jews will turn to Christ
>Those who had opportunity to believe in Jesus before the rapture will have no further opportunity to repent
>Will be a time of persecution for all who are faithful to Jesus
The Great Tribulation
Last three and a half years of "The Tribulation"
>Will begin with the abomination who causes desolation standing in the Holy Temple
>Demons activity will increase greatly
>Sorcery and witchcraft will increase greatly
>Cosmos events related to the sun, moon and stars will occur
>Religious deceit will be widespread
>Time of terrible suffering for the Jews
>The world's worst and most intense time of worldwide distress
>God will extend his wrath on the ungodly
>The Apostate church will be destroyed
>Two Witnesses who preached the Word and were killed will be Resurrected
>End of the Tribulation can be known by definite signs
>Will end at the Battle of Armageddon and God's full wrath on the ungodly
>Christ will triumph over the anti-Christ and his armies
The Anti-Christ
>Ruler during the great tribulation who controls the entire world
>An incredibly wicked person "a man of lawlessness and sin"
>Decribed as a beast
>Will set up an image of himself in the temple and demand worship
>Will exercise miracles through the power of Satan
>Will have the ability to deceive nations
>Will be assisted by the faith prophet (the beast of the Earth)
>Who will kill the two witnesses who proclaimed the Gospel
>Will attempt to kill everyone who does not have the mark of the beast
>Will eventually destroy the religious system with wich he was aligned
>Will be defeated by Christ when Christ returns to Earth to establish his kingdom
Christ's Glorious Appearing from Heaven to Judge and Wage War
>Christ will return with believers and his angels
>Christ will gather the Tribulation Saints
>Unbelievers will be unprepared for this event
>Christ will separate peoples on Earth
>Nations will be enraged at this event
>Saints will rejoice at this event
>Christ will judge and destroy the ungodly, including the anti-Christ and Satan
>Tribulation saints will receive rewards
>Tribulation saints will share in Christ's glory and kingdom
The Millennium
>Satan will be bound
>Tribulation saints(and possibly Old Testament saints) will rise from the dead
>The church and all marytered tribulation saints will reign with Christ
>Christ will reign on Earth over the tribulation saints alive at his coming
>Time span of reign will be a thousand years
>God's children will have rest
>Nature will be restored to its original form and perfection
>Satan will be released for a brief time at the end of the Millennium
>Will end with Christ returning turning over the kingdom to his Father
The Final Judgment
>Final battle of Gog and Magog
>All the wicked will be raised from the dead to face the judgment
>The great white throne judgment
>All God's enemies will be put in the lake of fire
The New Heavens and Earth
>God will destroy the present Earth
>God will create a new Heavens and new Earth
>God will wipe away all effects of sin
>New Earth will become the new Headquarters of God
If you want any specific scripture, I'd be happy to type it down :3
E
Here is an example of a fallen messenger:
"Body odor smells bad" or "That girl is ugly"
But it doesn't smell bad, unless the person is sick. And she isn't ugly, she's beautiful.
That fallen messenger teaches you to put on deodorant and misrepresent yourself.
And of an unclean spirit:
"It's ok to hit them back"
But they get much much worse, escalating eventually into ideas that make people think beating their wife is kosher, or stealing someones soul-mate is harmless, or secretly getting revenge instead of forgiving, tricking a girl out of her virginity and boasting about it, etc.
These demons are put into you by errant society, family, friends, saturday morning cartoon violence, when you are an otherwise innocent 3 year old, against your will. God allows it in order to let you to become the biggest victor over sin that you can possibly be, and tells you the secret: "Cry out for My help"
Satan is the part of you that you hate, it torments you, and you can't get rid of it on your own, though you wish wish wish you could.
God will remove it from you eventually.
We all go through a lake of fire, an immersion in a witness of our wrongdoings.
We can willingly let Jesus baptize us in it now, or we will cast ourselves into it in despair once in the presence of God Himself, having all our wrongdoings displayed at once.
The bible doesn't say "forever", it says "beyond measure" and it doesn't say "torment", it says "testing"
You can look all this up if you require or dare, or simply take someones word for it, either way, it's the condition of the heart and desire to know God that reveals the truth.
Scripture provided? I submit the entire bible. But people have been taught to read it wrong, and that God is wicked, before they get a chance to notice the beauty of Him and His word.
There are 4 faces to the words on that paper. Almost nobody gets past the "face of a lion", which is, to see those words on that paper as a violent and devouring creature that keeps others away from the rest of the pride, marks his territory, and takes his share of the others' kill.
It requires brotherly love to read it the next 2 ways, and the 4th is revealed only by God to whom He chooses, and they can't share it even if they wanted to with all their heart.
Why do men choose to believe the way they do? They have inherited the sins of their fathers, and they believe them because they refuse to even entertain forgiveness.
"Eternal torture" and "Eternal destruction" verses are curiously, all symbolic. Using words like fire, worm, etc.
But universal reconciliation verses are curiously, all non-symbolic.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”
“The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
“God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
"If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."
"And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing."
"Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Zion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come."
You were taught that after you die, that's it, no more chance to repent.
But on the day of rest, the man with the withered hand needs to do no more than step forward and stretch out his hand.
"Body odor smells bad" or "That girl is ugly"
But it doesn't smell bad, unless the person is sick. And she isn't ugly, she's beautiful.
That fallen messenger teaches you to put on deodorant and misrepresent yourself.
And of an unclean spirit:
"It's ok to hit them back"
But they get much much worse, escalating eventually into ideas that make people think beating their wife is kosher, or stealing someones soul-mate is harmless, or secretly getting revenge instead of forgiving, tricking a girl out of her virginity and boasting about it, etc.
These demons are put into you by errant society, family, friends, saturday morning cartoon violence, when you are an otherwise innocent 3 year old, against your will. God allows it in order to let you to become the biggest victor over sin that you can possibly be, and tells you the secret: "Cry out for My help"
Satan is the part of you that you hate, it torments you, and you can't get rid of it on your own, though you wish wish wish you could.
God will remove it from you eventually.
We all go through a lake of fire, an immersion in a witness of our wrongdoings.
We can willingly let Jesus baptize us in it now, or we will cast ourselves into it in despair once in the presence of God Himself, having all our wrongdoings displayed at once.
The bible doesn't say "forever", it says "beyond measure" and it doesn't say "torment", it says "testing"
You can look all this up if you require or dare, or simply take someones word for it, either way, it's the condition of the heart and desire to know God that reveals the truth.
Scripture provided? I submit the entire bible. But people have been taught to read it wrong, and that God is wicked, before they get a chance to notice the beauty of Him and His word.
There are 4 faces to the words on that paper. Almost nobody gets past the "face of a lion", which is, to see those words on that paper as a violent and devouring creature that keeps others away from the rest of the pride, marks his territory, and takes his share of the others' kill.
It requires brotherly love to read it the next 2 ways, and the 4th is revealed only by God to whom He chooses, and they can't share it even if they wanted to with all their heart.
Why do men choose to believe the way they do? They have inherited the sins of their fathers, and they believe them because they refuse to even entertain forgiveness.
"Eternal torture" and "Eternal destruction" verses are curiously, all symbolic. Using words like fire, worm, etc.
But universal reconciliation verses are curiously, all non-symbolic.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”
“The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
“God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
"If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."
"And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing."
"Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Zion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come."
You were taught that after you die, that's it, no more chance to repent.
But on the day of rest, the man with the withered hand needs to do no more than step forward and stretch out his hand.