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[h=1] Revelation 9:20Amplified Bible (AMP)[/h] [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the rest of humanity who were not killed by these plagues even then did not repent of [the worship of] the works of their [own] hands, so as to cease paying homage to the demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor move.
[h=4]Cross references:[/h]
Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
Revelation 9:20Expanded Bible (EXB)
20 The ·other [rest of the] people who were not killed by these ·terrible disasters [plagues] still did not ·change their hearts and turn away from what they had made with their own hands [L repent from the works of their hands]. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—things that cannot see or hear or walk [Ps. 115:4–7; 135:17; Jer. 10:1–16].
1 Timothy 4:1
[ False Asceticism ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot either see or hear or walk;
[h=4]Cross references:[/h]
Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
Revelation 9:20Expanded Bible (EXB)
20 The ·other [rest of the] people who were not killed by these ·terrible disasters [plagues] still did not ·change their hearts and turn away from what they had made with their own hands [L repent from the works of their hands]. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—things that cannot see or hear or walk [Ps. 115:4–7; 135:17; Jer. 10:1–16].
1 Timothy 4:1
[ False Asceticism ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot either see or hear or walk;
M
Nick0, Jamie2, Rick (and others)
Interesting posts. Particularly Nicks last.
Wish such had been more prevalent in the last month, almost two since I came, encourages me to post this compliment on them, and had that been the tone, I would not be leaving!
Sadly the posts likes Notuptohome, Jeff and so on, well outnumber them, and even worse, a lot of the vitriol gets liked, which makes any debate unpleasant.
The ones who observed that it is possible to get lost in the intellectual maze, and in preferences it is about making the most you can of the time you have to fulfill the vocation of love,to find the needy and help them and by that you should be known! .
I agree, and so too would many of the saints I admire. But if a catholic dared to say that they would be accused of unjustified emphasis on works. You cannot win...Does not alter the fact that some of the differences ARE fundamental and cannot be ignored.
In terms of this forum however Nick's observation " most Protestants are sensible enough not to take such a hideously individualist and isolationist approach to Scripture." in response to my comment that it is "the differences demonstrate the evangelical mantra is wrong and it is not enough to read scripture asking for guidance of the holy spirit" (provable by the massively varied outcomes" ) and the refusal in many cases even to look at church fathers.
I suspect that is the dominant outlook here and certainly by far the most expressed, whether or not it is true of protestantism as a whole, it is the majority forum mantra, as is the anti RCC mantra, often amongst people who don't know what it believes, and in the light of so much protestant variation, focus on RCC is inconsistent and wrong.
God Bless all.
Interesting posts. Particularly Nicks last.
Wish such had been more prevalent in the last month, almost two since I came, encourages me to post this compliment on them, and had that been the tone, I would not be leaving!
Sadly the posts likes Notuptohome, Jeff and so on, well outnumber them, and even worse, a lot of the vitriol gets liked, which makes any debate unpleasant.
The ones who observed that it is possible to get lost in the intellectual maze, and in preferences it is about making the most you can of the time you have to fulfill the vocation of love,to find the needy and help them and by that you should be known! .
I agree, and so too would many of the saints I admire. But if a catholic dared to say that they would be accused of unjustified emphasis on works. You cannot win...Does not alter the fact that some of the differences ARE fundamental and cannot be ignored.
In terms of this forum however Nick's observation " most Protestants are sensible enough not to take such a hideously individualist and isolationist approach to Scripture." in response to my comment that it is "the differences demonstrate the evangelical mantra is wrong and it is not enough to read scripture asking for guidance of the holy spirit" (provable by the massively varied outcomes" ) and the refusal in many cases even to look at church fathers.
I suspect that is the dominant outlook here and certainly by far the most expressed, whether or not it is true of protestantism as a whole, it is the majority forum mantra, as is the anti RCC mantra, often amongst people who don't know what it believes, and in the light of so much protestant variation, focus on RCC is inconsistent and wrong.
God Bless all.
Last edited:
J
Hi, mike.
What makes you think that only Roman Catholics are "accused of unjustified emphasis on works"? I mean, I'm no Roman Catholic, not by the longest of longshots, and I've been accused of exactly what you just described innumerable times over the last 26+ years. Anyhow, this "us vs. them" mentality" is never going to take anybody anywhere. At my end, I've spent the better part of the last 26+ years "protesting" against that which so-called "Protestants" teach, so what does that make me? Never mind, I don't want to know...lol.
Anyhow, it all comes back to what I said earlier:
The REAL PROBLEM is that many worship a FALSE CHRIST and that is why there are so many FALSE CHRISTIANS floating around. IOW, stop seeking the TRUE CHRISTIANS and focus instead on the TRUE CHRIST and you'll get somewhere.
What makes you think that only Roman Catholics are "accused of unjustified emphasis on works"? I mean, I'm no Roman Catholic, not by the longest of longshots, and I've been accused of exactly what you just described innumerable times over the last 26+ years. Anyhow, this "us vs. them" mentality" is never going to take anybody anywhere. At my end, I've spent the better part of the last 26+ years "protesting" against that which so-called "Protestants" teach, so what does that make me? Never mind, I don't want to know...lol.
Anyhow, it all comes back to what I said earlier:
The REAL PROBLEM is that many worship a FALSE CHRIST and that is why there are so many FALSE CHRISTIANS floating around. IOW, stop seeking the TRUE CHRISTIANS and focus instead on the TRUE CHRIST and you'll get somewhere.
the fact that roman catholicism is demonic in origin and practice and doctrine
is
not
in any way a justification for any other religion to claim being true. most are actually false.
only they are not specifically
called the mother of harlots and the anti-christ like the rcc is by yahweh and his
chosen ones.
is
not
in any way a justification for any other religion to claim being true. most are actually false.
only they are not specifically
called the mother of harlots and the anti-christ like the rcc is by yahweh and his
chosen ones.
All the “other” books, “later writings”, commentaries and creeds are precisely why there are literally THOUSANDS of religious denominations, organizations and autonomous congregations in existence, today. It is possible to find a Scripture here or there to support just about any view (or belief) one may have. However, that does NOT mean the view (or belief) will hold up under the scrutiny of the preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written verbatim upon the pages of the Holy Bible on the same subject, either. Many people are only trying to find Scripture to support their predetermined conclusions, anyway, and are NOT genuine, independent, Bible students. Furthermore, there is a myriad of “other” books, “later writings”, commentaries, creeds and articles of faith out there, today. And, they only serve to reinforce my position, and explain their very existence. **IF** one sifts and sorts through enough of it, they’ll find something that supports their predetermined conclusions ... just like a Scripture or two here and there in the Bible that is “cherry picked”. That is precisely why I am doing everything I can people out of all them “other” books, “later writings” and commentaries, and back into the Bible. By the way, the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls’ Book of Isaiah has served quite well to validate the accuracy, trustworthiness AND dependability of the King James Version of the Holy Bible, despite the absolute onslaught of opposition to it in favor of later versions with many words omitted and/or changed. And, we all know one word added or left out can change the whole meaning of a Scripture.
God bless!
There MUST be a “standard”, something that is stationary and not something fluid, that everything else is tied to, or gauged by, as it relates to life, morals, spirituality, etc. For example, the KJV was NOT just thrown together, or the work of one man. Anyone who has looked into its history knows that it was very meticulously done over a period of several years by 40 something scholars. Love him or hate him, King James was NOT involved in the work. He commissioned the work to be done. And, God can use anyone He chooses, elevate them to a place (and time) for something very specific. In this case, the most accurate rendering of the Holy Writ available, and made available to ordinary people, NOT just to priests and such. That, in and of itself, is very significant. And, the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls’ Book of Isaiah validated the accuracy, dependability and trustworthiness of the King James Version of the Holy Bible. Anyone who believes otherwise, probably aren’t going to accept the KJV under any circumstances, any way. Operating without a “standard” would be a lot like the air traffic control at O’Hare Airport advising all departing and incoming flights to pick them out a runway and “be very careful”. That would never work out well. The point is we MUST have a “standard” otherwise you have everybody doing whatever floats their boat, and thinking (or asserting) that God is ok with it, when it may be diametrically opposed to the preponderance of Scriptural evidence found written verbatim upon the pages of the Holy Bible. So, question things, yes. Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, yes. Be filled with and led by the Holy Spirit, yes. But, keep in mind the Holy Spirit is NOT going to led someone down a trail that contradicts that weight and preponderance of the scriptural evidence.
God bless!
First, I want you to know that I appreciate you citing these Scriptures, which inspired me to venture out more, myself. But in "testing ALL [absolute idea] things" that would include the Bible itself. Did not Paul commend the Bereans for searching the Scriptures and testing what he said? Now, where I'm going with this is that now Paul's letters are considered Scripture, and so, would he not extend the same expectation to us today?
I advocate education, as well, on Scripture and consciously learning... that doesn't mean that someone who hasn't been formally trained can not speak intelligently on the matter. (This is not a reference to me, but anyone.)
------
As far as "standards" there is a universal code of ethics, that is supposed to be universally known, accepted, and followed. Everyone doesn't have to believe in the Bible to have a decent society.
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To me, if you want to claim Scripture as absolute and the source of all moral advice for all people, then it should follow logic. This is what trips many people up, in coming to Christ. The reason I think teaching that a literal interpretation or absolute adherence is dangerous, is because it is the most likely way to push an unbeliever away.
You tell someone to obey Scripture, and you must obey to have God's favor, or to show you are saved.
"Well, I don't know Scripture fully, so I must be breaking all kinds of rules I would otherwise follow as I learn." And of course, this person would be assured that God is merciful, and forgives those sins, if they ask.
What if they don't ask (cause they don't know what sins they committed or forgot)? "God's forgiveness covers all your sins once and for all." Then what is the rush to learn the Bible, to read a chapter a day? "Well, you shouldn't sin that grace abound." That makes sense, but if I can lose my salvation by being complacent or lukewarm, but keep it if I TRY, but STILL sin (and unconscious sins are covered by the cross, mind you), then doesn't that alone upset the law of absolution? You are either forgiven all, or forgiven none. (See, how this absolute thinking leads to threads miles long - because everyone doesn't think exactly the same, and if they are thinking in absolutes, they will conflict) And if you must constantly ask to stay forgiven, then you weren't forgiven completely to begin - it wasn't "once and for all." And honestly, that's where the continual sacrifice of Christ in the Mass makes sense, to me. I am not advocating it, only I see where the logic comes from.
Remember I said if you want to claim the Bible in absolution, then it must follow absolute ideas and laws. Otherwise, you resort to "God works in mysterious ways" or "His thoughts are above your thoughts." Believe me, I think humanity would do well to draw principals from Christ! Absolutely! But to say the Bible is absolute truth, and it follows all the laws of nature (YEC for example), then if something in it isn't logical, then how can you expect people to take it seriously? Notice how just about every story you hear of someone forsaking their "common sense" for God was in some kind of turmoil or confusion, seeking an answer... well, if it's completely logical, a person wouldn't need trouble to accept it.
Ok, God's thoughts are above ours... well, the handiness in this statement is that you could apply it to anything you have trouble answering. It's not concrete. It can't be proven or tested. And THAT'S not logic, that is nothing we can establish as absolute... so if you explain something in Scripture as vague or having a "maybe" kind of answer, then the bible itself can't remain absolute. As someone said on here "The Bible stands as a whole, or falls as a whole." And honestly, that's true, if you treat it such.
Would you know, EVEN science is starting to deviate from laws and absolutes, to examining things in probability. Google the string theory. Fascinating stuff. And honestly, I think this school of thought promotes God, more than dispute Him.
-----
As for later books and writings. You mention commentary. Remember that Paul and the Apostles often quoted the OT, and explained them in the context of their time and circumstance. Is that not commentary? It was certainly commentary during that time, as the events of Christ just happened recently.
I'm not sure that you can draw absolutes about Scripture's authority based on time written alone. "They are the ones dated first, so they must be the right ones." Well, take Genesis. Moses wrote it, as oral tradition, long after even the conservative belief of time Adam/Eve fell. And after other creation stories were penned. If you want to say that these oral traditions were highly accurate being penned so long after, then how is it you can just rule out everything after a certain date concerning Jesus? I'm not really wanting to get into an argument of the Gospels' authenticity.
Honestly, if you want to know what I think, I'm not so sure it's the conservative or absolute beliefs in and of themselves that people are repelled by, and fellow Christians even. What is particularly offensive is being called rebellious, or carnal, or some other nasty description for questioning or posing some other view.
I know because I'm guilty myself. Basically what that communicates is the unspoken idea that I could read the other person's mind, and get into the most intimate recesses of their soul uninvited... and yet, don't we in the next breath say that Jesus knocks, and asks to enter? That He doesn't force Himself? This is the problem with absolute teaching of Scripture - it is to pass an omniscient manner of judgement. To pass an absolute judgement (which absolute would include being true for EVERY circumstance, applicable to ANY situation), is to insinuate that you think you're omniscient. You likely don't think that. But that's what people hear, that's what I hear when I communicate a feeling that not 100% Puritan in spirit and doctrine.
And once I started questioning orthodoxy myself, and turned to preachers I once listened to and heeded, I was met with rebuke, as though I was consciously forsaking Christ.
I was only trying to learn more about Him, honestly.
[=quote]
God bless!
And you as well, certainly! 
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G
I generally agree with this statement.
I also believe that the number one cause for most of the error in the "modern thinking" of biblical learning ( in terms of sustaining it ) came from "formally trained" people who - by the nature of having the title - effectively "lifted up" man's thinking in a way that "trumped" God's thinking and set "traditions of men" as the standard for learning...
In other words -- "formal training" is the number one promoter of error in biblical learning.
So -- education is good -- too much education is not good.
How can you have too much education on the Bible?
When it gets bold enough to think that it has a "lock" on knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.
There are many seminaries "churning out" many "educated" people who are in error concerning the Scriptures. Why?
Because, "education" has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit in biblical learning -- thereby placing "traditions of men" ahead of the Holy Spirit.
And - because "formally trained" is considered to be the pinnacle of authority in learning - the smallest amount of error that creeps into the "education system" is amplified and spread around and about like wildfire.
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not against education. This is coming from someone who may be considered today to be "highly educated" -- but who has the wisdom ( and all wisdom comes from God, we have none of our own ) to discern that, while "education" and "formal training" can be a good thing - they are also very powerful instruments in the hand of Satan - which Satan is using today to steer people away from God. For a good example, think 'evolution'...
True; however, keep in mind that this "universal code of ethics" originated from the Word of God - and is the 'standard' that has held every society on earth together ( in the sense of "able to function" ) since the time of Adam and Eve. Without this 'standard' of "decency", any society will fall apart.
This is where "logic" fails -- and is what trips people up in coming to Christ. The problem is that, people try to use 'logic' to reason the Scriptures. The thing is -- 'logic' is but one form of reasoning. It cannot be used to discern 'spiritual' things. There is another form of reasoning that must be used to discern 'spiritual' things. We call it 'faith'.
These two forms of reasoning - 'logic' and 'faith' - "work" and "operate" differently, and do not mix well. While 'logic' works really well in physical-realm things ( Math / Science / etc. ), it does not work well in spiritual-realm things ( God / Faith / etc. ). Why? Because [ the "operation" of ] 'logic' is based on man's thinking, and [ the "operation" of ] 'faith' is based on God's thinking.
The "literal interpretation" of Scripture is not dangerous. It clearly defines God's expectations of us ( At our core, that is what we really want - and, it actually best serves us to know exactly "where the lines are drawn"... ) - "absolute adherence" is the expectation of God. Having a clear-cut definition of what God expects, it is up to each individual person to choose which path they wish to follow. God is not a god of deception. He "lays it down" very clearly - "Follow Me or Follow Sin" - it is then up to the individual person to make their choice.
It is Satan that "draws people in" based on "partial knowledge" of "what they are getting themselves into" - operating by deception, instead of "putting all the cards on the table" - as is honest and good and right.
God is honest and good and right. However, God will not be mocked.
He "says it like it is" very openly and "to the point":
~ I am God.
~ You are my creation.
~ You will serve me. Otherwise, you will "burn" for all eternity... [ because... ]
~ I will be glorified by each and every one who I have created -- either voluntarily or by "the smoke of their torment" ( Revelation 14:11 ).
He is God. He created everything. He has the right to make such an edict.
A person may accept it or not accept it. It is their choice. However, "there are consequences"...
This is something else people often misunderstand -- the difference between Salvation and Service. Where Salvation is concerned ( Eternal Life ), all sins are forgiven - past, present, and future - 'forgiveness' is "one time" for all sin --- where Service is concerned ( Relationship with God ), 'forgiveness' of sin must be, out of necessity, "continual"...
The sins of a born-again believer will not "keep them out of heaven"; yet they will still "give an account" ( Matthew 12:36 ) for their "works" in this life. The only judgment for Salvation is Faith; the rest of judgment is about Service. The result of the Salvation judgment is Eternal Life or Eternal Death. The result of the Service judgment is [ amount / extent of ] Reward. This is [ why and how ] a person can "do good works" and still end up in the lake of fire for all eternity. It is Belief and Faith in God and Jesus that saves, and gives Eternal Life. The rest is all about Service and Reward.
Yet it is directly contrary to Scripture -- which says that Jesus gave Himself a one time sacrifice for [ all ] sins ( Hebrews 10:12 ). The idea of "continual sacrifice of Christ" actually "runs against" the entirety of the Gospel message concerning the whole reason for Christ's first coming.
The work of Christ ( His first coming ) is finished!
No more "sacrifice" is needed.
Again -- 'logic' fails - 'faith' is required.
If a person understands the difference between 'logic' and 'faith' -- all of this "will take care of itself"...
Scripture is not intended to be "logical" -- it must be reasoned and accepted by Faith.
What people find offensive is the idea that they have to answer to a "higher" being. People are sinners, and don't like to think of themselves as anything less than [ their own ] god.
I also believe that the number one cause for most of the error in the "modern thinking" of biblical learning ( in terms of sustaining it ) came from "formally trained" people who - by the nature of having the title - effectively "lifted up" man's thinking in a way that "trumped" God's thinking and set "traditions of men" as the standard for learning...
In other words -- "formal training" is the number one promoter of error in biblical learning.
So -- education is good -- too much education is not good.
How can you have too much education on the Bible?
When it gets bold enough to think that it has a "lock" on knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.
There are many seminaries "churning out" many "educated" people who are in error concerning the Scriptures. Why?
Because, "education" has usurped the role of the Holy Spirit in biblical learning -- thereby placing "traditions of men" ahead of the Holy Spirit.
And - because "formally trained" is considered to be the pinnacle of authority in learning - the smallest amount of error that creeps into the "education system" is amplified and spread around and about like wildfire.
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not against education. This is coming from someone who may be considered today to be "highly educated" -- but who has the wisdom ( and all wisdom comes from God, we have none of our own ) to discern that, while "education" and "formal training" can be a good thing - they are also very powerful instruments in the hand of Satan - which Satan is using today to steer people away from God. For a good example, think 'evolution'...
True; however, keep in mind that this "universal code of ethics" originated from the Word of God - and is the 'standard' that has held every society on earth together ( in the sense of "able to function" ) since the time of Adam and Eve. Without this 'standard' of "decency", any society will fall apart.
This is where "logic" fails -- and is what trips people up in coming to Christ. The problem is that, people try to use 'logic' to reason the Scriptures. The thing is -- 'logic' is but one form of reasoning. It cannot be used to discern 'spiritual' things. There is another form of reasoning that must be used to discern 'spiritual' things. We call it 'faith'.
These two forms of reasoning - 'logic' and 'faith' - "work" and "operate" differently, and do not mix well. While 'logic' works really well in physical-realm things ( Math / Science / etc. ), it does not work well in spiritual-realm things ( God / Faith / etc. ). Why? Because [ the "operation" of ] 'logic' is based on man's thinking, and [ the "operation" of ] 'faith' is based on God's thinking.
The "literal interpretation" of Scripture is not dangerous. It clearly defines God's expectations of us ( At our core, that is what we really want - and, it actually best serves us to know exactly "where the lines are drawn"... ) - "absolute adherence" is the expectation of God. Having a clear-cut definition of what God expects, it is up to each individual person to choose which path they wish to follow. God is not a god of deception. He "lays it down" very clearly - "Follow Me or Follow Sin" - it is then up to the individual person to make their choice.
It is Satan that "draws people in" based on "partial knowledge" of "what they are getting themselves into" - operating by deception, instead of "putting all the cards on the table" - as is honest and good and right.
God is honest and good and right. However, God will not be mocked.
He "says it like it is" very openly and "to the point":
~ I am God.
~ You are my creation.
~ You will serve me. Otherwise, you will "burn" for all eternity... [ because... ]
~ I will be glorified by each and every one who I have created -- either voluntarily or by "the smoke of their torment" ( Revelation 14:11 ).
He is God. He created everything. He has the right to make such an edict.
A person may accept it or not accept it. It is their choice. However, "there are consequences"...
This is something else people often misunderstand -- the difference between Salvation and Service. Where Salvation is concerned ( Eternal Life ), all sins are forgiven - past, present, and future - 'forgiveness' is "one time" for all sin --- where Service is concerned ( Relationship with God ), 'forgiveness' of sin must be, out of necessity, "continual"...
The sins of a born-again believer will not "keep them out of heaven"; yet they will still "give an account" ( Matthew 12:36 ) for their "works" in this life. The only judgment for Salvation is Faith; the rest of judgment is about Service. The result of the Salvation judgment is Eternal Life or Eternal Death. The result of the Service judgment is [ amount / extent of ] Reward. This is [ why and how ] a person can "do good works" and still end up in the lake of fire for all eternity. It is Belief and Faith in God and Jesus that saves, and gives Eternal Life. The rest is all about Service and Reward.
Yet it is directly contrary to Scripture -- which says that Jesus gave Himself a one time sacrifice for [ all ] sins ( Hebrews 10:12 ). The idea of "continual sacrifice of Christ" actually "runs against" the entirety of the Gospel message concerning the whole reason for Christ's first coming.
The work of Christ ( His first coming ) is finished!
No more "sacrifice" is needed.
Again -- 'logic' fails - 'faith' is required.
If a person understands the difference between 'logic' and 'faith' -- all of this "will take care of itself"...
Scripture is not intended to be "logical" -- it must be reasoned and accepted by Faith.
What people find offensive is the idea that they have to answer to a "higher" being. People are sinners, and don't like to think of themselves as anything less than [ their own ] god.