Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[LaurenTM]

So you have not yet learned that classical Greek is different in many places than Koine Greek? Tell you what, I'll post some things here, from reputable scholars.

English from 500 years ago is quite different from how we speak today and it is changing daily

of course, a person would have to have an appreciation for that type of thing and make allowance for better understanding even if it disagrees with currently held opinions

these WOF folks love to talk about extra Biblical revelation, but not the ongoing studies of language or better understanding of original texts

that, would result in a crisis of faith in human teachers who, with straight faces, admit to personal visions, dreams and interpretations OUTSIDE of what is acceptable biblical thought and with that same straight face, tell their students that is how the Holy Spirit is moving

again, head over to Hagin's site for some eye opening revelations...for example, did y'all know that Jesus took on the character of satan?

well Hagin teaches that!

 

[notuptome]

Where is your focus? Are you focused on self and healing of your body or are you looking forward to the day you are glorified with Christ?

I have seen many fine Christians who have gotten cancer and died after a long and painful period of sickness. These fine Christians are now in the presence of Jesus. Isn't this far better than living here on this sin corrupted world?

Their suffering was a great testimony to the health care workers as they treated them. The health care workers saw that they had a special hope in Christ that the unsaved do not possess.

So when you walk through the shadow of the valley of death you need not fear. When we shed this tabernacle of flesh we receive and new body made like unto His glorified body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Angela53510]

Where is your focus? Are you focused on self and healing of your body or are you looking forward to the day you are glorified with Christ?

I have seen many fine Christians who have gotten cancer and died after a long and painful period of sickness. These fine Christians are now in the presence of Jesus. Isn't this far better than living here on this sin corrupted world?

Their suffering was a great testimony to the health care workers as they treated them. The health care workers saw that they had a special hope in Christ that the unsaved do not possess.

So when you walk through the shadow of the valley of death you need not fear. When we shed this tabernacle of flesh we receive and new body made like unto His glorified body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, this is so true! God is glorified in everything!

When I was in seminary, there was a recent graduate, who was diagnosed with ALS. And a fast moving case! He loved God so much, and trusted him, for whatever happened.

What happened was that he led every one of his aides and care workers to the Lord. They saw his peace, and he told them about the love of Christ, while he still could speak. He did die, but a bursary for the seminary was established in his name, for a student with a gift and a passion for evangelism.

I know he thought those souls who were saved for eternity, were so much more important than healing the temporary body he was in. I heard his wife speak, and although she loved and missed him, she too understood God's higher purpose for this life and glorified God for all that had come to pass.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I just read this in my daily read through the bible, yesterday. I always emphasize the importance of reading the Bible from cover to cover. It is from that reading, we learn context, but more important, God uses it to help us grow. The Word is powerful, why would people not want to read it? A mystery to me! (Not necessarily speaking of you, wanderer, just anyone who is reading this post, and hoping people will start in January to read through the Bible every day, the OT and NT!

Also, it is VERY important to me, that you not just post a verse, but also the chapter and book. I knew this was in Acts, but since I read three chapters of the NT every day, I had to look up the Scripture to find the chapter. I think sometimes you are in a real rush, when you post things, Wanderer. I know that is partly enthusiasm, but also, maybe ADHD or something? Just thinking aloud. If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, cast it aside. And if ADHD, why have you not been healed of it? Or maybe, you have never been taught to edit? Re-read every post, before and after you post. You will find most errors (although not that transposition error I did above, I admit!)

As for the lack of spaces?? What is that about? Lucky I could read verse 11.

First, context.

"And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul proclaims.”14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?”16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.17 And this became known to all the residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks. And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled.18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.20 So the word of the Lord continued to increase and prevail mightily." Acts 19:11-20

Great piece of Scripture! I wonder why this is important? Is it because of the clothing, or the faith? Or, if we look at the rest of the passage, we find several important lessons.

1. Jewish exorcists tried to imitate Paul's closeness to Christ, and were badly surprised with what sounds like a psychotic and possessed man actually hurting them. So beware, if you are not Paul, or at least walking with Jesus as close as Paul, then do not try this at home! Seriously though, just because it happened to Paul, and used as a object lesson, doesn't mean it applies to today. If this was something we could all do, then it would have happened more than once, and probably Jesus would have done it (the hem of the bleeding woman's garment was about Jesus' power going out, not the actual clothing!). It would appear in many places, and many people doing it. Instead, it appears in context for people to beware if they try such things. Do not make a doctrine about clothing healing people if it only appears in one place, because that is bad hermeneutics!

2. Because the exorcists were exposed, those who practiced magic, had a very important lesson about dealing with the devil, as the sons of Sceva did. In fact, they burned their magic books to the tun of 50 thousand pieces of silver, and "THE WORK OF THE LORD CONTINUED TO INCREASE AND MIGHTLY PREVAIL." v. 19

So the work of the Lord was for people to repent of the sins of witchcraft and magic. What a healing and wonderful time for the church at Ephesus. And as the book of Acts and elsewhere demonstrate, the past problems with the priestesses of Artemis and the silversmiths who made their living making silver idols of that goddess, this incident with Paul healing people with clothing, and people trying to imitate this gift, was an incredible witness to believers in that church to repent of their sins - confessing - important word!

"And fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled.18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices." Acts 19:17-18

What an important lesson for today!

There are some vss. In the OT that I wonder about maybe casting light on the handkerchief thing. And good morning, Angela!

It's something like...if a priest is carrying something holy inside (his robe) and brushes up against such and such...do you know the verses?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I had hoped to hear what these men taught you concerning Job, but I might not be who you prefer to speak with because I am unlearned. And that's okay. ☺ Probably better for me to just keep asking God. He always pulls it together for me.☺ I can't say that I like the spirit of the conversation but I can thank you, wanderer, for at least trying to move it away from the way it was going. Anyhow, it was nice speaking with you, wanderer. Have a nice vacation. ☺

 

[popeye]

English from 500 years ago is quite different from how we speak today and it is changing daily

of course, a person would have to have an appreciation for that type of thing and make allowance for better understanding even if it disagrees with currently held opinions

these WOF folks love to talk about extra Biblical revelation, but not the ongoing studies of language or better understanding of original texts

that, would result in a crisis of faith in human teachers who, with straight faces, admit to personal visions, dreams and interpretations OUTSIDE of what is acceptable biblical thought and with that same straight face, tell their students that is how the Holy Spirit is moving

again, head over to Hagin's site for some eye opening revelations...for example, did y'all know that Jesus took on the character of satan?

well Hagin teaches that!

What do you do with verses that debunk what you just posted?

Moses was instructed to make a brass serpent (a cursed type of Satan), to hang on a wooden pole.
Which was A TYPE OF CHRIST.

The bible says " he became sin"... And " cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

I think you do mot understand what happened on the cross.

He did not become Satan,but a type of a cursed entity,or satans nature.

The typology is vivid

Christ on the cross <> serpent on a pole

He became man. That to me is easy

He became a curse. That is beyond the natural mind

Doesn't mean it not true

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What do you do with verses that debunk what you just posted?

Moses was instructed to make a brass serpent (a cursed type of Satan), to hang on a wooden pole.
Which was A TYPE OF CHRIST.

The bible says " he became sin"... And " cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

I think you do mot understand what happened on the cross.

He did not become Satan,but a type of a cursed entity,or satans nature.

The typology is vivid

Christ on the cross <> serpent on a pole

He became man. That to me is easy

He became a curse. That is beyond the natural mind

Doesn't mean it not true

You may have misread her post, popeye...
That last was saying what it said on that website. Anyone who knows lauren knows she doesn't believe that.

 

[stonesoffire]

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Chrisma Magazine:http://www.charismamag.com/fireinmybones/Columns/show.php

Before he died in 2003, the revered father of the Word-Faith movement corrected his spiritual sons for going to extremes with their message of prosperity.

Charismatic Bible teacher Kenneth Hagin Sr. is considered the father of the so-called prosperity gospel. The folksy, self-trained “Dad Hagin” started a grass-roots movement in Oklahoma that produced a Bible college and a crop of famous preachers including Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Charles Capps, Jesse DuPlantis, Creflo Dollar and dozens of others—all of whom teach that Christians who give generously should expect financial rewards on this side of heaven.

Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.


Those who were close to Hagin Sr. say he was passionate about correcting these abuses before he died. In fact, he wrote a brutally honest book to address his concerns. The Midas Touch was published in 2000, a year after the infamous Tulsa meeting.

Many Word-Faith ministers ignored the book. But in light of the recent controversy over prosperity doctrines, it might be a good idea to dust it off and read it again. Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:

1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”

2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”

3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”

4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.

5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”

(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)

Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,” Hagin wrote.

Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.

Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?

[J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma. The Midas Touch is available from Kenneth Hagin Ministries at rhema.org.]

_________________
Matthew Guldner
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2011/8/18 8:27[/TD]
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[TD] Re: Kenneth Hagin Sr.’s Renouncement of Word-Faith Teachings. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]I commend him for speaking against the overemphasis of adding to what the bible actually teaches, the prosperity message wasn't the only issue. There was the idea in his book, "Jesus" that he explains to the reader how that Jesus Christ became demon possessed and when He rose from the grave, He was born again.

Pure Madness.
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[TD]mguldner
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Joined: 2009/12/4
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Kansas

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I saw youtube video of him promoting a book he wrote that basically took the time to explain that Jesus never claimed to be the messiah and so the Jews didn't really reject him or know they were rejecting the Messiah.
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Matthew Guldner
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2011/8/18 10:47[/TD]
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[TD]lylewise
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Joined: 2009/2/20
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Celina, Texas

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[TD] Re: Kenneth Hagin Sr.’s Renouncement of Word-Faith Teachings. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]No, I for one have not heard of K.H. Sr's address of the PG.
Does he deal with any of the other heretical teachings that have come out of this movement or does he only address the PG. Not to minimize the the consequences of giving to get, just curious. I would have a hard time reading from this man, but what a wonderful warning from the death bed. One would be hard pressed, even as the forerunner of the WOF movement, to ask his wealthy disciples to enter through the eye of the needle when they have been so comfortably seduced and deceived by Mammon.
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[TD]AbideinHim
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[TD="colspan: 2"]"There was the idea in his book, "Jesus" that he explains to the reader how that Jesus Christ became demon possessed and when He rose from the grave, He was born again."

I don't remember ever reading where Kenneth Hagin said that "Jesus Christ became demon possessed", but what he did say, which was a popular teaching among the WOF teachers, was that Jesus died spiritually. This is a false teaching in itself.

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[bluto]

What do you do with verses that debunk what you just posted?

Moses was instructed to make a brass serpent (a cursed type of Satan), to hang on a wooden pole.
Which was A TYPE OF CHRIST.

The bible says " he became sin"... And " cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

I think you do mot understand what happened on the cross.

He did not become Satan,but a type of a cursed entity,or satans nature.

The typology is vivid

Christ on the cross <> serpent on a pole

He became man. That to me is easy

He became a curse. That is beyond the natural mind

Doesn't mean it not true

Oh boy popeye! The following is what kenneth copeland literally said because I have the audio tape regarding John 3:14.

The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off." (Kenneth Copeland, "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne.) Fort Worth TX, 1990, audio tape #0200017, side 2. And btw, copeland states at the beginning of his presentation on this topic he first says to everybody, "You don't know what happened at the cross." Of course were all suppose to believe he does know, not.

Now, the explanation is as follows according to the context. I'm going to cut to the chase by first stating we all know Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and Jesus says to Nicodemus vs10, Art thou a master of Israel, and your unable to discern this? At vs12 Jesus says if I told you earthy things how are you going to believe heavenly things? At vs13, Jesus says, "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven; even the Son of man which is in heaven." This verse alone kills the idea that Jesus Christ is a created being as many of the cults believe.

Now to vs14! "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so MUST the Son of man be lifted up."Jesus is saying how the Son of Man would accomplish "LIFE" for everyone who would believe. The second part is the "HOW" of the new birth by pointing to what happened found at Numbers 21:5-9 as a type of His own crucifixion. The serpent was also a type of God's judgment on sin. "MUST" indicates the necessity of being lifted up on the cross.

Then we have vs15,16 as to the "why" of all of this, i.e "For God so loved the world etc. As you can see all of this is a "FAR" cry from how copeland understands these verses despite the fact that he says God gave him the answer to these verses. Did Jesus Christ die spiritually? Of course not because the only ones who die spirituall are those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and spiritually dying means your going South.

All this stuff about some wof'ers saying Jesus Christ went to hell and was tortured by Satan and his minions until finally Jesus was born again in hell. I could go on and on with these blasphemies from these people. In short, their all liars headed south of the border themselves if they don't repent before they die spiritually themselves. They still need to be prayed for in spite of their grave sins in whatever form it takes.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[samuel23]

WOF, as with others in that persuasion, are often times following spirits not of God, spirits that they mistakenly believe to be the Holy Spirit. The spirit of the world craves the things of the world, look at how they live. The spirit of the world craves personal power and control, their message exalts man. As one man of God said it, you had better be very careful what spirit you are following.

 

[Angela53510]

There are some vss. In the OT that I wonder about maybe casting light on the handkerchief thing. And good morning, Angela!

It's something like...if a priest is carrying something holy inside (his robe) and brushes up against such and such...do you know the verses?

I do not remember any verses about this, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Maybe someone else knows? Were the priests even supposed to take things out of the temple? Or was this before the temple? Right, you don't know!

 

[popeye]

[video=youtube;Rz76QqwlHWc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz76QqwlHWc[/video]

 

[popeye]

Oh boy popeye! The following is what kenneth copeland literally said because I have the audio tape regarding John 3:14.

The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off." (Kenneth Copeland, "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne.) Fort Worth TX, 1990, audio tape #0200017, side 2. And btw, copeland states at the beginning of his presentation on this topic he first says to everybody, "You don't know what happened at the cross." Of course were all suppose to believe he does know, not.

Now, the explanation is as follows according to the context. I'm going to cut to the chase by first stating we all know Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and Jesus says to Nicodemus vs10, Art thou a master of Israel, and your unable to discern this? At vs12 Jesus says if I told you earthy things how are you going to believe heavenly things? At vs13, Jesus says, "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven; even the Son of man which is in heaven." This verse alone kills the idea that Jesus Christ is a created being as many of the cults believe.

Now to vs14! "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so MUST the Son of man be lifted up."Jesus is saying how the Son of Man would accomplish "LIFE" for everyone who would believe. The second part is the "HOW" of the new birth by pointing to what happened found at Numbers 21:5-9 as a type of His own crucifixion. The serpent was also a type of God's judgment on sin. "MUST" indicates the necessity of being lifted up on the cross.

Then we have vs15,16 as to the "why" of all of this, i.e "For God so loved the world etc. As you can see all of this is a "FAR" cry from how copeland understands these verses despite the fact that he says God gave him the answer to these verses. Did Jesus Christ die spiritually? Of course not because the only ones who die spirituall are those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and spiritually dying means your going South.

All this stuff about some wof'ers saying Jesus Christ went to hell and was tortured by Satan and his minions until finally Jesus was born again in hell. I could go on and on with these blasphemies from these people. In short, their all liars headed south of the border themselves if they don't repent before they die spiritually themselves. They still need to be prayed for in spite of their grave sins in whatever form it takes.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I have heard many "blasphemies" from all denominations. Not willing to drag them into the sewer of hyper criticism and trash them over what I disagree with.

Cessation-ism could possibly be the greatest "blasphemy" to ever destroy kingdom building.

Seeing Gods power work over and over,many times,and having received the Baptism of the Holy spirit on mothers day 1977,and following Jesus for ,what,about 40 years,I simply know too much to be swayed by "theorists" that have no interest in walking in Davids anointing.

 

[popeye]

What a faith building sermon!!!!


[video=youtube;Rq6BFARt14M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq6BFARt14M[/video]

 

[bluto]

I have heard many "blasphemies" from all denominations. Not willing to drag them into the sewer of hyper criticism and trash them over what I disagree with.

Cessation-ism could possibly be the greatest "blasphemy" to ever destroy kingdom building.

Seeing Gods power work over and over,many times,and having received the Baptism of the Holy spirit on mothers day 1977,and following Jesus for ,what,about 40 years,I simply know too much to be swayed by "theorists" that have no interest in walking in Davids anointing.

Tell me something popeye, what does pointing out bad behavior justify more bad behavior? And if you have heard other blasphemies from other denominations why don't you post threads and confront them on thei blasphemies like your suppose to do? I can't tell if your being "sarcastic" or not by posting what r.w shambach is teaching but he to is a wof heretic.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[LaurenTM]

What do you do with verses that debunk what you just posted?

Moses was instructed to make a brass serpent (a cursed type of Satan), to hang on a wooden pole.
Which was A TYPE OF CHRIST.

The bible says " he became sin"... And " cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

I think you do mot understand what happened on the cross.

He did not become Satan,but a type of a cursed entity,or satans nature.

The typology is vivid

Christ on the cross <> serpent on a pole

He became man. That to me is easy

He became a curse. That is beyond the natural mind

Doesn't mean it not true

would it ever be possible for you to ask a question without sounding like you would like to kill someone?

get over yourself!

show me where the Bible states Jesus took on the nature of the devil

the nature of the devil is not Jesus being the perfect sacrifice...

I tell you what, YOU are beyond MY natural mind and one of the reasons posting is less a pleasure and more of grudge match around the BDF

I don't give a fig newton what you think I think

telling me you don't think I know what happened on the cross vividly illustrates your inability to discuss something without falling off that horse you ride in on

go lance someone else...I am putting you on ignore where the rest of your ilk reside

welcome to WOF...go heal someone

 

[LaurenTM]

You may have misread her post, popeye...
That last was saying what it said on that website. Anyone who knows lauren knows she doesn't believe that.

I think he may be agreeing with Hagin actually...and thank God, no I DO NOT believe that unmitigated garbage and WOF rattle crap

popeye thinks its his duty to ride in once in a while and correct everything he does not agree with...does not matter what the subject matter actually is

tomorrow he could agree with me

anyway, I am tired of folks demanding and coming in like gangbusters...this thread is almost 53 pages long but in he jumps because he knows what everyone is thinking and therefore does not need any sort of knowledge of what went before

yahoo...ride em cowboy there popeye...more spinach to ya!...officially on ignore

oh...wait...almost forgot

is anyone else aware that Hagin Sr TOTALLY DENOUNCED WOF BEFORE HE DIED?

yeah, that's right...his son still indulges himself in it though as the Hagin site attests

 

[popeye]

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Chrisma Magazine:http://www.charismamag.com/fireinmybones/Columns/show.php

Before he died in 2003, the revered father of the Word-Faith movement corrected his spiritual sons for going to extremes with their message of prosperity.

Charismatic Bible teacher Kenneth Hagin Sr. is considered the father of the so-called prosperity gospel. The folksy, self-trained “Dad Hagin” started a grass-roots movement in Oklahoma that produced a Bible college and a crop of famous preachers including Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Charles Capps, Jesse DuPlantis, Creflo Dollar and dozens of others—all of whom teach that Christians who give generously should expect financial rewards on this side of heaven.

Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.


Those who were close to Hagin Sr. say he was passionate about correcting these abuses before he died. In fact, he wrote a brutally honest book to address his concerns. The Midas Touch was published in 2000, a year after the infamous Tulsa meeting.

Many Word-Faith ministers ignored the book. But in light of the recent controversy over prosperity doctrines, it might be a good idea to dust it off and read it again. Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:

1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”

2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”

3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”

4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.

5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”

(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)

Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,” Hagin wrote.

Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.

Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?

[J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma. The Midas Touch is available from Kenneth Hagin Ministries at rhema.org.]

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Matthew Guldner
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[TD] Re: Kenneth Hagin Sr.’s Renouncement of Word-Faith Teachings. [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]I commend him for speaking against the overemphasis of adding to what the bible actually teaches, the prosperity message wasn't the only issue. There was the idea in his book, "Jesus" that he explains to the reader how that Jesus Christ became demon possessed and when He rose from the grave, He was born again.

Pure Madness.
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[TD]mguldner
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I saw youtube video of him promoting a book he wrote that basically took the time to explain that Jesus never claimed to be the messiah and so the Jews didn't really reject him or know they were rejecting the Messiah.
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Matthew Guldner
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[TD]lylewise
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[TD="colspan: 2"]No, I for one have not heard of K.H. Sr's address of the PG.
Does he deal with any of the other heretical teachings that have come out of this movement or does he only address the PG. Not to minimize the the consequences of giving to get, just curious. I would have a hard time reading from this man, but what a wonderful warning from the death bed. One would be hard pressed, even as the forerunner of the WOF movement, to ask his wealthy disciples to enter through the eye of the needle when they have been so comfortably seduced and deceived by Mammon.
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[TD]AbideinHim
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[TD="colspan: 2"]"There was the idea in his book, "Jesus" that he explains to the reader how that Jesus Christ became demon possessed and when He rose from the grave, He was born again."

I don't remember ever reading where Kenneth Hagin said that "Jesus Christ became demon possessed", but what he did say, which was a popular teaching among the WOF teachers, was that Jesus died spiritually. This is a false teaching in itself.

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I got a chuckle out of the "gotcha" post years ago where someone actually thought the Jews beleved Jesus was the messiah.

Too funny.

Way too much anti Hagin zeal. Egg all over face moment.

 

[Angela53510]

I got a chuckle out of the "gotcha" post years ago where someone actually thought the Jews beleved Jesus was the messiah.

Too funny.

Way too much anti Hagin zeal. Egg all over face moment.

Perhaps then, we could stop talking about the supposed "father" of WoF, who really wasn't, and get back on topic.

So, Popeye, do you have anything about the BIBLE to support your wild beliefs? Because I have also been a Christian, walking with Christ for 36 years, full of the Holy Spirit, and God led me away from this heresy.

Why? Because as I read the Bible, I saw what a twisted lie it was! Experiences are not the topic here. Because, as we so clearly see, experiences can lead us far from the truth.


"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." 2 Cor. 11:14

 

[stonesoffire]

I saw in one of the posts here that God was glorified in a persons suffering and subsequent death.

Well, maybe so by the persons faith of knowing her/his destination at death.

But, disease is the result of the fall...a process of death which Jesus overcame with His resurrection. How can a result of the fall and the victory of Jesus over all the power of the enemy ever glorify Him in this way?

To know Him and the power of His resurrection.

Php 3:9　 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:　
Php 3:10　 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;　
Php 3:11　 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.　
Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12　 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.　
Php 3:13　 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,　
Php 3:14　 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.　
Php 3:15　 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.　
Php 3:16　 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.　
Php 3:17　 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.　
Php 3:18　 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:　
Php 3:19　 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)　
Php 3:20　 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:　
Php 3:21　 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.　

There will be some who will attain.