word of faith movement

[know1]

how bout we address the part where you told me to take it elsewhere and then we can get around to the words you spin, actually mean something else? something VERY different that you refuse to acknowledge


God is not going to correct people who are on the wrong path unless they ACKNOWLEDGE their error, TURN from their error and ACCEPT and BELIEVE the TRUTH

you are just doing a mashup of various verses to try and substantiate your error

there is no reason on the planet ANYONE should pay ANY attention to that type of ...cough...cough..'expository' unless they are already embedded in the WOF/NAR subversive renderings...in which case they will one day really be wishing they had paid better attention. it will come. wait for it. it will come.

that mishmash is YOUR little world and those that follow the erroneous and grievous errors of WOF, because it IS WOF...practically right out of the textbook

I think you are confusing me with someone else. To the best of my recollection, I never told you to take anything somewhere else. Not that it's a bad idea, as I see you peddling lies concerning this subject, but worse, I see much hate. But if I did, I apologize for it.
Okay, can we now get to the words I allegedly spun, and actually interpret the WORDS in Mk 11:22-25?
I don't need a backdrop to the verses, or a generalization of what Jesus was saying, or what He wasn't saying, just a word for word interpretation.
If I have it wrong or am twisting it, as you allege, then this is a perfect opportunity for you to show me exactly what I got wrong or twisted, to make the bible say what I wanted it to say.
I WANT you to try to prove me wrong, and I urge you to do so.
If my conscience were not clear or if I were purposely trying to hide or deceive others, I wouldn't want anyone to expose me, but because neither is the case, I ask you to examine it closely and interpret it accurately, without bias, like you do for salvation scripture. And then maybe we can discuss what each word means, afterwards.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

there are a number of people here that have been mixed up in that mess

while I was not involved in WOF per se, I was set free from another 'type of spiritual mess' by God BECAUSE I could see in scripture that what I was being taught to believe in, did NOT line up with the word of God

It began in the late 1980's for me while attending a Rhema church. The pastor would quote the Biblical text but his sermon didn't match what the text was saying. Then he would jump to another part of the Bible and do the same, then to another, and another. So by the time the sermon was done he gave a nice teaching on living in divine health and prosperity but all those Bible verses were on things like getting persecuted, suffering, and other unrelated subjects. Compared to the Bible's message, I liked the WOF pastors message better so I stayed in WOF but was questioning things. It wasn't until many years later when I attended Bible college through Assemblies of God and got to the hermeneutics course that I had my breakthrough. Now I can articulate what I sensed was wrong all along.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I think you are confusing me with someone else. To the best of my recollection, I never told you to take anything somewhere else. Not that it's a bad idea, as I see you peddling lies concerning this subject, but worse, I see much hate. But if I did, I apologize for it.
Okay, can we now get to the words I allegedly spun, and actually interpret the WORDS in Mk 11:22-25?
I don't need a backdrop to the verses, or a generalization of what Jesus was saying, or what He wasn't saying, just a word for word interpretation.
If I have it wrong or am twisting it, as you allege, then this is a perfect opportunity for you to show me exactly what I got wrong or twisted, to make the bible say what I wanted it to say.
I WANT you to try to prove me wrong, and I urge you to do so.
If my conscience were not clear or if I were purposely trying to hide or deceive others, I wouldn't want anyone to expose me, but because neither is the case, I ask you to examine it closely and interpret it accurately, without bias, like you do for salvation scripture. And then maybe we can discuss what each word means, afterwards.

I already explained how you are twisting it out of its context.

 

[Budman]

Ever wonder why WOF folks don't go into hospitals and simply cure everyone by the power of their words of faith?

Or raise folks from the dead?

Or stop tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc.?

It's because they can't.

 

[know1]

You have to read in paragraphs. A paragraph is a single thought unit. You are wrenching a single verse (v23) out from its context., out from the unit of thought it belongs and making a whole different thought. If Jesus were saying that, then why don't we see any Apostles casting mountains around the Israeli terrain into the Mediterranean Sea by speaking at them?

Let's try to stick with the scriptures and stop with the generalizing and naturalizing of scripture.
It is also written that Jesus took away the sins of the WORLD, so why are the majority going to hell?
Why hasn't that scripture been fulfilled?
Could it be because it only applies to those who accept what Jesus did for them?
You speak of things you do not know.
If you cannot believe, without ANY doubt that what you have said shall come to pass, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. So as far as moving a literal mountain out of it's place, Jesus is the only one who had that kind of faith.
Either what Jesus said was and is a truth or He was a liar and deceiver.
I choose to believe the former, what about you?
Okay, let's take your "read in paragraphs" idea, even though that's bogus for interpreting all scripture.
What's the thought behind verses 22 - 25?
Simple, Jesus is explaining HOW He killed the fig tree. So if I were to do the same by believing that God shall cause what I say to manifest, without any doubt in my heart, then it too shall be done.
Right?]
If not, then Jesus lied.
I will ask you to do the same as I asked another.
If you would, give me a word for word interpretation of those verses please.

 

[know1]

I already explained how you are twisting it out of its context.

Don't explain, show and prove. That works better.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Ever wonder why WOF folks don't go into hospitals and simply cure everyone by the power of their words of faith?

Or raise folks from the dead?

Or stop tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc.?

It's because they can't.

But that does not stop them from believing and teaching they can. I was attending a WOF church in Florida who's pastor one Sunday am commanded an incomming hurricane saying, "In the name of Jesus, I command you turn and head back out to sea and dissipate!" Guess what happened? It kept right on its path slamming into New Orleans and killed 1,836 people. That was hurricane Katrina. The Biblical fact is that none of the Apostles did nature miracles, why? Because only Jesus did them to prove His Deity. Only Jesus is an incarnation of God, we are not contrary to WOF teaching.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Don't explain, show and prove. That works better.

I explained exactly where you are messed up but you are refusing to deal with the truth.

 

[Budman]

But that does not stop them from believing and teaching they can. I was attending a WOF church in Florida who's pastor one Sunday am commanded an incomming hurricane saying, "In the name of Jesus, I command you turn and head back out to sea and dissipate!" Guess what happened? It kept right on its path slamming into New Orleans and killed 1,836 people. That was hurricane Katrina.

How did the Pastor explain that one away?

The old "I/we didn't have enough faith?"

 

[know1]

Ever wonder why WOF folks don't go into hospitals and simply cure everyone by the power of their words of faith?

Or raise folks from the dead?

Or stop tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, etc.?

It's because they can't.

I can tell, you haven't been around those who believe, because those things have happened, but even if that was the case, what does that have to do with WHAT IS WRITTEN?
You fail God every day and here you are pointing out and condemning other's failures.
I don't need to tell you what God calls that kind of person.
You also don't know or understand HOW WOF works or how healing is accomplished.
Tell me, why couldn't Jesus heal many people in His home town?
Did He lack the faith to get them healed?
Do you think anything has changed from that time to the present concerning the law of faith or how to get one healed?
You condemn those who at the very least TRY be a doer of the word they hear, what great works of faith have you done that would bring glory to God?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It began in the late 1980's for me while attending a Rhema church. The pastor would quote the Biblical text but his sermon didn't match what the text was saying. Then he would jump to another part of the Bible and do the same, then to another, and another. So by the time the sermon was done he gave a nice teaching on living in divine health and prosperity but all those Bible verses were on things like getting persecuted, suffering, and other unrelated subjects. Compared to the Bible's message, I liked the WOF pastors message better so I stayed in WOF but was questioning things. It wasn't until many years later when I attended Bible college through Assemblies of God and got to the hermeneutics course that I had my breakthrough. Now I can articulate what I sensed was wrong all along.

yeah

for me it was always a 'feeling' that things were not right. I was SO uncomfortable in my own skin...bad dreams, visions that were not from God...AND I KNEW they were not God but I could not stop them from happening because I had accepted them in the beginning

the whole time, it was like I was living a double life. I had been taught that Christians cannot be bothered by demons but then God mercifully introduced me to a ministry that taught the truth. proper teaching about the gifts and proper teaching about what demons can actually do and it is really a whole lot more than many people would be comfortable with

so, after prayer to be released from the whole nasty mess I was set free and you know what kind of a demon was hanging around and harassing me? a religious demon. a demon pretending to be the Holy Spirit

Christians cannot be possessed but they most certainly can be 'demonized'...or bothered. and I know what kind of feelings these things generate...you get emotionally high and think it's all good, but if you resist it (which I actually did many times) you get the nightmares and bizarre things happening and a very uncomfortable feeling

and then you have these other misled folks telling you that if it feels ok it is God. yeah. sure.

anyway....

 

[know1]

I explained exactly where you are messed up but you are refusing to deal with the truth.

Sir, you are evading the truth, and trying to hide behind obscurity.
Please show me again then, where I messed up or am refusing to deal with the truth, and please be specific.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Let's try to stick with the scriptures and stop with the generalizing and naturalizing of scripture.
It is also written that Jesus took away the sins of the WORLD, so why are the majority going to hell?
Why hasn't that scripture been fulfilled?
Could it be because it only applies to those who accept what Jesus did for them?
You speak of things you do not know.
If you cannot believe, without ANY doubt that what you have said shall come to pass, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. So as far as moving a literal mountain out of it's place, Jesus is the only one who had that kind of faith.
Either what Jesus said was and is a truth or He was a liar and deceiver.
I choose to believe the former, what about you?
Okay, let's take your "read in paragraphs" idea, even though that's bogus for interpreting all scripture.
What's the thought behind verses 22 - 25?
Simple, Jesus is explaining HOW He killed the fig tree. So if I were to do the same by believing that God shall cause what I say to manifest, without any doubt in my heart, then it too shall be done.
Right?]
If not, then Jesus lied.
I will ask you to do the same as I asked another.
If you would, give me a word for word interpretation of those verses please.

I know this is falling on deaf ears but maybe someone reading this will be helped. Reading has rules and you can't violate them. If you violate basic reading rules then even though you can spell and read words you are acting in an illiterate way. Reading in circles of literary context is one of the basic rules of reading. That means that words must be read in their sentence, a sentence must be read in its paragraph, a paragraph is a single unit of thought, a paragraph must be read in its chapter context and then the whole book context. Each of those contexts is in concentric cicles with its own circle starting from the center (a single sentence) and moving outwards to the largest context.

In verse 24 Jesus starts off "Therefore I say unto you..." that is a conclusion or explanation phrase of what Jesus is trying to get across in the preceding verses which He goes onto explain is all about prayer. That means whatever interpretation you make in vv 22 and 23 needs be in light of prayer to God not speaking to fig trees and mountains.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I can tell, you haven't been around those who believe, because those things have happened, but even if that was the case, what does that have to do with WHAT IS WRITTEN?
You fail God every day and here you are pointing out and condemning other's failures.
I don't need to tell you what God calls that kind of person.
You also don't know or understand HOW WOF works or how healing is accomplished.
Tell me, why couldn't Jesus heal many people in His home town?
Did He lack the faith to get them healed?
Do you think anything has changed from that time to the present concerning the law of faith or how to get one healed?
You condemn those who at the very least TRY be a doer of the word they hear, what great works of faith have you done that would bring glory to God?

believe what?

I think you are misplacing Christianity...belief in Christ...with some sort of faith/supernatural anything goes/false miracle event that is not now nor ever will be Christianity

it always comes down to this, right?

if someone does not believe like a WOFer then they are not really saved...or at least not saved as much

you have some nerve saying those who do not agree with you are condemning you. you are not even believing biblical Christianity

I've seen all kinds of things...seemed like God...but they were demonic

I mean, you are aware that the devil can mimic supernatural events, right? remember the slave girl following Paul? she was SPOT ON...yet Paul cast a devil out of her

take heed...because many that believe they are in some God given ministry, are actually listening to doctrines of demons

you are deviating from your teaching posts to accusing

again, this is a thread about WOF...so maybe stick to that instead of becoming personal. constantly saying you this and you that is not what the thread is about yet it seems whenever people who believe extra biblical things are challenged, they resort to attacking and false accusing

congratulations...you are demonstrating the principal. that is not an attack...I am observing you attacking this other poster

why? he has as much right to deny what you say as you have to deny what he says

WITHOUT making it a personal vendetta...

I KNOW God can and sometimes does heal and sometimes He just says My grace is sufficient for you

this thread is not about healing though...it is about WOF

this:

You fail God every day and here you are pointing out and condemning other's failures.

is not true. what that is, is YOU taking offence at something you know is true and it irks you that you know it and cannot say otherwise. this is actually not a personal failure on anyone's part though. what it really is, is a failure on the part of God to honor people speaking in His name when He never said a word to them

read the OT and what God says about those who speak in His name and He has not sent them

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Sir, you are evading the truth, and trying to hide behind obscurity.
Please show me again then, where I messed up or am refusing to deal with the truth, and please be specific.

I have been extremely specific with you.

 

[Budman]

I can tell, you haven't been around those who believe, because those things have happened, but even if that was the case, what does that have to do with WHAT IS WRITTEN?
You fail God every day and here you are pointing out and condemning other's failures.
I don't need to tell you what God calls that kind of person.
You also don't know or understand HOW WOF works or how healing is accomplished.
Tell me, why couldn't Jesus heal many people in His home town?
Did He lack the faith to get them healed?
Do you think anything has changed from that time to the present concerning the law of faith or how to get one healed?
You condemn those who at the very least TRY be a doer of the word they hear, what great works of faith have you done that would bring glory to God?

There is no "law of faith". God doesn't perform based on a formula. If that were so, none of you WOF people would ever fail.

You have no idea the anguish you cause when people bring their crippled or dying loved ones to these WOF events - only to turn around and take them back home in their state of suffering - while the WOF teachers have the audacity to claim "well, they just didn't have enough faith!"

Try explaining this "law of faith" to a teary-eyed parent as they push their child back out in the wheelchair they came in with.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

How did the Pastor explain that one away?

The old "I/we didn't have enough faith?"

He and his "sheep" completely ignored it afterwards. Didn't mention anything about. Nobody talked about it.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I think you are confusing me with someone else. To the best of my recollection, I never told you to take anything somewhere else. Not that it's a bad idea, as I see you peddling lies concerning this subject, but worse, I see much hate. But if I did, I apologize for it.
Okay, can we now get to the words I allegedly spun, and actually interpret the WORDS in Mk 11:22-25?
I don't need a backdrop to the verses, or a generalization of what Jesus was saying, or what He wasn't saying, just a word for word interpretation.
If I have it wrong or am twisting it, as you allege, then this is a perfect opportunity for you to show me exactly what I got wrong or twisted, to make the bible say what I wanted it to say.
I WANT you to try to prove me wrong, and I urge you to do so.
If my conscience were not clear or if I were purposely trying to hide or deceive others, I wouldn't want anyone to expose me, but because neither is the case, I ask you to examine it closely and interpret it accurately, without bias, like you do for salvation scripture. And then maybe we can discuss what each word means, afterwards.

short term memory loss"

YOUR post 206

Kindly keep to the subject, and stop bringing in diversions into the subject of discussion.

I posted an excerpt regarding WOF and that seemed to have offended you even though this discussion is actually all about WOF.

you keep trying to make it about personal beliefs

that is why you are having the difficulties with people who keep talking about WOF...maybe discuss WOF instead of personal issues

if we make a post about some personal experience, it is still regarding WOF or satellite cults

 

[Budman]

He and his "sheep" completely ignored it afterwards. Didn't mention anything about. Nobody talked about it.

Not surprised at all.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You have to read in paragraphs. A paragraph is a single thought unit. You are wrenching a single verse (v23) out from its context., out from the unit of thought it belongs and making a whole different thought. If Jesus were saying that, then why don't we see any Apostles casting mountains around the Israeli terrain into the Mediterranean Sea by speaking at them?

I've always wondered that