work

posthuman · May 27, 2016

scalar means just a number, and amplitude is like .. volume, or min/max levels if we're talking about a wave .. same latin root as 'amplified' right?

so, another way to say what i was thinking is that our works don't secure salvation, pointing us towards the kingdom of God, but if we are a spiritual radio, God has adjusted us to His frequency, and let us play with the volume. ♪♪♫
works don't tune us into the station - God has done that to us. if our works are the volume knob, they can't change the station - that's not what that button does!

i suppose in this metaphor it's like we have another radio set - or we're playing mp3's on our phone haha - that is tuned to the 'sin station' and we can adjust the volume on it, too, by the things we do with out lives. we can drown out the good works God prepared us to do, and if we leave Him muted and play this other station too much ((it's FULL of commercials, too - i don't know why we'd want to listen anyway?? but we do)), God may change our frequency Himself, to rebuke us for 'grieving the Spirit.'

make more sense now i hope?

'scalar amplitude' was my fancy way of talking about the same subject because i was thinking about it in terms of vectors, and it's a mathy bit of jargon. vectors have a size (the amplitude) and a direction. the size is a 'scalar quantity' -- just a number. this is directionless; the direction is a different component altogether. and physically, 'work' is a scalar quantity -- just a measure of loudness, not a radio station frequency

posthuman · May 27, 2016

RobbyEarl said:

it's just a language. math is a language. another way to understand and talk about something -- about the thing that does save us ((His mercy!)) and about what we do, who we are - having been saved.

i like your MC[SUP]2[/SUP] !

notice that E isn't a direction; it's scalar ((right?)).
so if M and C are vector quantities ((i'd say they are here)) then this must be a dot product too --

E = M·C[SUP]2 [/SUP]

notmyown · May 27, 2016

posthuman said:

scalar means just a number, and amplitude is like .. volume, or min/max levels if we're talking about a wave .. same latin root as 'amplified' right?

so, another way to say what i was thinking is that our works don't secure salvation, pointing us towards the kingdom of God, but if we are a spiritual radio, God has adjusted us to His frequency, and let us play with the volume. ♪♪♫
works don't tune us into the station - God has done that to us. if our works are the volume knob, they can't change the station - that's not what that button does!

i suppose in this metaphor it's like we have another radio set - or we're playing mp3's on our phone haha - that is tuned to the 'sin station' and we can adjust the volume on it, too, by the things we do with out lives. we can drown out the good works God prepared us to do, and if we leave Him muted and play this other station too much ((it's FULL of commercials, too - i don't know why we'd want to listen anyway?? but we do)), God may change our frequency Himself, to rebuke us for 'grieving the Spirit.'

make more sense now i hope?

'scalar amplitude' was my fancy way of talking about the same subject because i was thinking about it in terms of vectors, and it's a mathy bit of jargon. vectors have a size (the amplitude) and a direction. the size is a 'scalar quantity' -- just a number. this is directionless; the direction is a different component altogether. and physically, 'work' is a scalar quantity -- just a measure of loudness, not a radio station frequency

ah! thank you!

so...as God is as work in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure, let us work out our salvation (and not someone else's lol) with fear and trembling-- good and loud.

not loud as in obnoxious, but rather turn up the volume on the good work He has prepared for us.

is that an approximation of what you're saying?

Messy · May 27, 2016

posthuman said:

the sermon this past weekend at my little congregation was about work.
naturally - it had the focus you might expect, talking about the 'Christian work ethic' how we should consider ourselves to work for God, not men, the Boss with the capital B instead of the boss with the lowercase b, so we should not grumble, or do a poor job, but be faithful and diligent -- and that whatever we find ourselves called into doing for a living, we can represent Christ as good workers, our lives being a witness to how He has performed and is performing a work in us.

but as those of you who know me by now you may expect, post's mind wanders and he doodles on his bulletin and makes what might be odd associations in his mind with the topic. i want to share some of that rambling with you and maybe give you something other than condemning this or that to think about today

so i was thinking of physics -- the speaker opened his teaching with the physical definition . .

the physical definition of work is a force dotted across a distance.

the calculation of the amount of work done involves an active differential of momentum ('a force') acting on a body causing a displacement.
notice that it involves something happening to a thing, and that thing being moved.

two interesting results fall out physically from this definition that i'd like to call attention to in spiritual terms.

the work done is path-independent. it only matters how far the object is displaced from its original location; not the route it took to get there. if you move a couch upstairs, the work done is the same whether you take it outside and lift it up through a window, haul it right up the stairs, move it across the street first or take it apart and drop it bit by bi through a skylight and then reassemble it.
if the displacement is zero, no work is done. that is, if the final location is the same as the starting location ((at least in the interval considered)) then the amount of physical work calculated is nil. if you move that couch back downstairs, no work has been accomplished with regard to the couch. also, if you go back home after you go to your job, you've done no work! ((haha!

))

how does this relate to our life as being found in Christ?

well, consider the work done on us by the Spirit of God. the Father has drawn us to Christ, separating us and calling us out of the world and from darkness, displacing us into the glorious light of His presence, from death into life. if we then return to the things that He brought us out of - in our hearts, our thinking or our actions, then no "work" is calculated, because the displacement is 0 over that interval.

what about path-independence? the preacher said, and it's very true - that with regard to the believer and his everyday vocation, 'what you do is not nearly as important as how you do it' ((see, post was paying attention to the sermon too! haha)) -- referring to scripture like Colossians 3:23 & Ephesians 6:7 -- plying your trade as though for God, not for men, with the attitude and character that reflects service to the Lord rather than an earthly 'boss' -- the heavenly Boss is your employer, no matter what your 'job' is. so is this sentiment an expression of 'path dependence' if we were to calculate spiritual 'work' ?

i'd love to hear your thoughts and comments, and however you may develop this concept more

We take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
(2 Corinthians 10:5)

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you
will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 1:6)

.........

notmyown · May 27, 2016

Messy said:

lol! yeah, post is waaaayy smarter than i. but he's a really good teacher. we can ask him to explain, and he's always happy to do so and dumbs it down for me so i can grasp it. hang in there; it's worth it.

posthuman · May 27, 2016

notmyown said:

YES !

. . and that there is no way to get pointed to heaven by working

it is His gift to us!

psalm6819 · May 27, 2016

there's something God is teaching about the difference in work (do it myself) and yield(He flows thru me)

not trying to generate but a capacitor, transforming His love to the brethern

posthuman · May 30, 2016

quoting from wiki,

In the philosophy of thermal and statistical physics, Maxwell's demon is a thought experiment created by the physicist James Clerk Maxwell in which he suggested how the Second Law of Thermodynamics could hypothetically be violated. In the thought experiment, a demon controls a small door between two chambers of gas. As individual gas molecules approach the door, the demon quickly opens and shuts the door so that fast molecules pass into the other chamber, while slow molecules remain in the first chamber. Because faster molecules are hotter, the demon's behavior causes one chamber to warm up as the other cools, thus decreasing entropy and violating the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

is it any wonder that Maxwell -- a Christian, by the way -- called the mechanism in his thought experiment a 'demon' ?

consider how this might apply to the spiritual analogy i've been trying to develop. this is work being done on the system - a transfer of heat energy from one chamber to the other - with a decrease in entropy ((some have argued that the in a complete analysis, the more entropy would arise from the demon itself than what it removed from the chambers, but this is immaterial to what i wanted to say here)). work being accomplished without work being 'done.'
it is like the proposition that we who accept and believe in the grace of God that declares us holy are so often accused of - that we consider it a license to live in sin and do no 'works' or that we suppose we can be sanctified without living a life that is sanctified. the accusation is that we believe we can lead holy lives without actually leading holy lives, a gnostic heresy of a sort, and a false accusation toward anyone who has believed the true gospel of my Christ -- because instead, we do good works and are impelled to do them, the difference being that they are motivated now out of love and in righteous reply to what has been ascribed to us through His Living Mercy and the power of the cross, not out of dread, in order to earn or to keep the gift that was given to us on the basis of faith.

is an entropic principle established in the scripture? yes:

Where no oxen are, the crib is clean:
but much increase is by the strength of the ox.
(Proverbs 14:4)

by implication ((and isn't this funny? who says no humor in the Good Book??)) the crib is not clean when the oxen are present; its disorder is increased. and present in us is a great Ox - the Spirit who is the seal upon us and earnest, which prepares us and empowers us toward every good work set before us, as predestined for us be part in, prepared for us by the Lord. the 'demon' suggests that the saved may ignore what was prepared for us, that the works can be accomplished without our hand in them. but --

For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:10)

the scripture says otherwise, and the 2nd law says otherwise. work is done by applied forces across distances, causing displacements -- the force of the Spirit, the distance of non-negative, non-zero time, and the displacement of the need by the fulfilling of it as servants of the Lord of Hosts, that we may be children of our Father, who meets every need abundantly in His time, with substance, not mere words

But Jesus said to him,
"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."
(Luke 9:62)

ladylynn · May 31, 2016

Wow, it was difficult trying to read and understand many of the posts here with the math. Especially you posthuman!! I can't seem to do the math or the complicated reasoning you posted here.

Anyway, about work? I've learned that the way we believers work today is without the curse. Just like the way we live as believers is without the curse. Life and work takes on new meaning and is a blessing and not a curse. We no longer have to work by the sweat of our brow.

How far fetched does that sound? But as I've progressed this work journey in my 50s for the very first time being responsible for holding down a job and managing all the money, God has lead me to believe we believers in the new covenant of grace do not work like the rest of the world lives and works either. Just like we don't do anything like the rest of the world now.

God spoke to my heart about this work thing and addressed my concerns. He said that all I need to do is trust Him and He will find jobs for me. To not worry or think of the what ifs of not being employed. Just trust Him one day at a time. So I did. One day at a time learning and still learning. He fit me to the right job and at the right place only minutes from my home.

And from here He is doing even more each day. The only time the "sweat" of my brow comes is when I worry and that is only when my eyes are off His love for me. He keeps bringing me back to see His love and watch care. And is teaching that worry has no place here.

We are not to worry or fret. Not to worry about what we shall eat or what we shall drink., for the people of the world worry about such things. He clothes the grass of the field and feeds the little birds how much more will He do for us.. oh ye of little faith. So please be encouraged about the work and how not only does Jesus take care of the work of our salvation., but He also provides all these other things as we seek first His kingdom., and allllllll these other things will be added to. And also, it's been more of an acknowledgement of Him and that all I have is by His hand not my own.

God's kind of math doesn't reason out the same way ours does. God does it this way.... 1+2=750

posthuman · May 31, 2016

ladylynn said:

thanks so much for muddling through my posts!
these are a small collection from a bunch of tenuous metaphors i think i'm seeing, and i know they're not really expressed well, but i needed to get them out of my head and into some kind of written form. i never expected much response - so just to know that you actually read through them all is really neat

ladylynn said:

this is how He's dealt with me too. i've never exactly 'sat on my butt collecting unemployment' - when i need work, i actively seek it - but every job i've ever had has kind of dropped right out of heaven and fallen into my lap; i know He puts me where He wants me to be. throughout my employment history & so many other parts of my life, He's consistently told me, "fret not"

i love that this exact phrasing is in the scriptures, btw!

Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
(Psalm 37:1-3)

((also in Psalm 24))

ladylynn said:

in so many ways, yes!!

without Him,

sin + sin = more sin

but with Him

sin + blood of Jesus = no sin

but i am also convinced, quite possibly because i'm crazy, that if we do math in the right spaces, with the right measures, then we can understand & express His workings through this kind of language. the problem isn't that God defies all logic; it's that human logic falls short. it's that we 'calculate' with the wrong norms, the wrong operations & the wrong equivalence classes, and we do it in the wrong fields & dimensions.
((that was more of that tenuous metaphor of life to algebraic topology

-- post-grad work + being driven to walk in the Spirit has done strange things to my brain))

notmyown · May 31, 2016

posthuman said:

yesss.... we're back to words lol!

that word 'logic' caught my attention. i'm sure you know some of the ancient Greek philosophers were searching for the reason for being (and some made a distinction between being and becoming). basically, it was their version of the theory of everything?
(idk....sittin' around thinking about thinking all the day long gives me a headache

)

and they called this reason for being 'the logos'.

they're an odd bunch to study because so many of them came so close to the Truth. they danced all around it without ever coming to the knowledge of it.

the word logic is derived from that word logos, meaning reason, idea, word.

"In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."

in my book, that's a better ontology than the Greek philosophers had a clue of.
and He establishes a better logic, too.

notmyown · May 31, 2016

oh, and post! my son-in-law (he of the doctorate in engineering who, more importantly, belongs to Christ) appreciated your thoughts on Maxwell's thought experiment.

just so you know someone in the family gets it.

royalscot · May 31, 2016

saviour means saviour, what can we add to this fact. what work can we achieve ,

ie the harvest is his. etc

adding new definition for justification , only show we cut out, what the saviour has already done.

wisdom.
speak to the smallest in, the room or forum, then all will understand ,what is being said. etc

ladylynn · May 31, 2016

posthuman said:

There is something about "order" that appeals to us have you noticed? (of course YOU have Mr.Math) When things are out of order we feel sort of mixed up and not as up to par. Just like God is a God of order, He made us in His image and we also have an appreciation for order. Order makes things work better, it just gives us a good feeling of well being.

Like when pictures on the wall are even and for some reason it feels nice to have towels folded and proper in the bathroom. And dishes put away nicely in the clean kitchen. Measuring usually comes out perfect if the person is good at that sort of thing. It's nice to know some things do actually work out regardless of opinion, 1 foot will always measure 1 foot. We can count on that. As well as the math working out when it's worked out before hand like "geniuses" like you posthuman do.

Years ago when we were building our house I tried my hand at putting up drywall. Good grief a few sheets were ruined because no matter how much I tried, it mis-measured for the outlets. But later when the expects came and zipped it out with the measurements it fit and they put them up on the wall no problem.

Math works! And it sure comes in handy for so many things in life. Wow totally agree with your post especially the last paragraph. (not you being crazy)

but i am also convinced, quite possibly because i'm crazy, that if we do math in the right spaces, with the right measures, then we can understand & express His workings through this kind of language. the problem isn't that God defies all logic; it's that human logic falls short. it's that we 'calculate' with the wrong norms, the wrong operations & the wrong equivalence classes, and we do it in the wrong fields & dimensions.

Yes, if we know the proper formula things can and do work out but most often we are missing the mark. I'm sooooooooooooo glad for His grace in those times!!!
Yes, and very much agree we go out and look for jobs we don't just sit home and wait. It's also a balance of being willing and then waiting and not worrying (no fretting) allowed., amen. Someone said worry is the opposite of faith.

Did many job searches and went on a bunch of interviews and waalaa. Thank You Jesus! I'm also sure if I could not get out, He would work that out too. He meets us where we are. Amen!

posthuman · May 31, 2016

ladylynn said:

a simple example i really like to point at, is when people look at what we call 'the trinity' and say that that's 3 gods, not one God, because they say

{ Father, Son and Spirit } ≈ 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

but is this the right measure at all?? who told you to use " + " ?

how about,

1 · 1 · 1 = 1

you can get very wrong results by using the wrong operations and working in the wrong spaces, and sometimes very surprising results by looking at and measuring things the right way. that's true in math, in life, in just about everything.

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