Would you walk out of your church if a woman missionary came to pulpit to speak ?

[jimmydiggs]

Copying and pasting from a Strong's link probably isn't the best way to go either. Since KJV is used only for Strong's words and it is over 100 years old, the latest manuscripts and information on this word in OTHER sources are missing. (the only ones you can find since there is nothing to compare it with in the Bible)

Uh, NASB much? It wasn't from the KJV.

Plus copy and pasting an internet source is probably a sign that you don't know much Greek.

Never claimed to, I'm going to more authoritative sources than you just blabbering.

[Besides, I agree that domineering would be a good translation, because that is what the women were doing in Ephesus, having come from the worship of Artemis. Paul wanted them to be equal and in submission, just like the men were!

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

My issue is that the word "authority" is not a good or reliable translation. But of course, you would need access to a lot newer sources than the internet version of Strong's. I know before I learned Greek and Hebrew, I often would use Strong's and it was helpful. [/quote]
You have shown before you don't know Greek or Hebrew well. All I'm doing is going to more authorative sources, than what you're doing.

It appears a good number of translators have not held this new belief that you hold.

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. <--- click for a list

As I said before, I was sick with a high temperature and was totally wrong in that very easy translation. Amazing how some people who call themselves Christian, are constantly unforgiving.

I have nothing personal against you. I just don't like when someone claims to know Greek, demonstrates they don't, and then continues claiming it to try and bolster their case.

Or maybe it just goes hand in hand with misogyny??

If it's misogyny to believe what God has said, then staple it to me.

Jimmy, I pray when you grow up you will have a new understanding of the Bible and learn about good hermeneutics, which you do not have right now. Since salvation does not depend on what we believe about women's status in church or in the pulpit, it cannot be dogma, just doctrine.

I hope when you grow up, you will try out obedience.

You are so dogmatic about this issue, I have to wonder why you have elevated a non-essential point to the status of something like say, the deity of Christ.

False accusation.

So please do study Greek and learn more. I always recommend an easy way is to study "Basics of Biblical Greek" by Bill Mounce. He has videos of each lesson, and a feedback forum. It would be nice to discuss the complexities of hapax legomena with someone who knew more than just Strong's.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I'm fine with a woman giving her testimony from the pulpit. However, if a woman begins to preach from the pulpit, I would not walk out.

 

[GreenNnice]

I'm fine with a woman giving her testimony from the pulpit. However, if a woman begins to preach from the pulpit, I would not walk out.

What's your definition of 'preach?'

Yes, I put the word 'testimony' in my OP and regret it now because that's NOT really what this woman missionary is going to be doing from the pulpit.

She's using the word of God , and, in a very powerful way, I might add, to explain how God did mighty, miraculous work through her in an african village in the heart of the Congo

My point is, no matter what she's going to be saying , it's going to sound like 'preaching' to someone who is against a woman preaching, even though this woman missionary is, obviously, not a pastor of this church. Let's just say there is NO way around it, she's going to be preaching and teaching you of God by virtue of where she's been the last year and how God's spoken to her through her stories of faith in Him .

Will you listen or will you leave, knowing 'this?'

Does the mere thought of thinking you might leave beging to help you see what preaching and teaching truly is?

Do you think then, that, maybe, just maybe, your ideas behind women never allowed to preach or teach men, at the pulpit, are a bit skewed, a bit biased, a bit selective, cookie-cut to benefit your belief of a 'woman' in this way ?

And, Scripture does say a overseer or shepherd or bishop or pastor is to be the 'husband of one wife,' so that does tell us that a man is referenced. But, do you think, especially for an 'elder,' who is double-honor receiving for preaching and teaching, do you think this 'elder' could be a man or woman ?

Scripture does give the impression that a bishop (pastor) and a deacon (elder) are of the male variety, but, is there anywhere else in Scripture where a woman could be labeled a elder, or, servant, or deacon, like Phoebe, for ex. in Romans 16? Phoebe was a 'servant,' this, to me, anyway, seems like she was more than just a 'woman' submitting to a man, like, wife faithful to husband?

I keep, asking more questions. Trying to keep the scope though on the original question, so, please, work hard not to tarry tooo far from 'this' chosen thread path

And, this missionary woman is, definitely, a servant, she's answered God's call, right ? I mean, she didn't just wake up one day and say, 'I'm going to go live with a violent tribe in Africa for a year.'

Oh, you're learning more about this missionary woman now, aren't you? Oh YES ! She prayed night and day and day and night prior to going to the Congo's heart and interacting and teaching others who disliked whites and she was white. And, who disliked Christianity, too, killed people before Marie-ann came to missionary to them and she changed their lives, well, God did, working through her 'vessel' structure

 

[Reformedjason]

I do not believe a woman should be the primary teacher of the church. Is it possible for a woman to be called and used by God to lead a church ? I suppose if no men are qualified. I just would go to a different church. Do I really care one way or another? Nope. If she wants to preach and has a church to follower her as shepherd , then more power to her. I just would not attend. I have a friend that is a woman pastor and I don't go to her church. Do I think she is horrible ? Nope. Truth is , I don't care what they do. Let her preach, I will not attend.

 

[GreenNnice]

I do not believe a woman should be the primary teacher of the church. Is it possible for a woman to be called and used by God to lead a church ? I suppose if no men are qualified. I just would go to a different church. Do I really care one way or another? Nope. If she wants to preach and has a church to follower her as shepherd , then more power to her. I just would not attend. I have a friend that is a woman pastor and I don't go to her church. Do I think she is horrible ? Nope. Truth is , I don't care what they do. Let her preach, I will not attend.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I guess, it's fair to say, you don't mind a woman pastor in the church but your gonna stomp right on out of there if she begins preaching at YOUR church.

She's of The Devil, this woman (preacher) has authority over men by telling them to choose Christ, by speaking from Scripture, like, 'God cannot tell a lie.' And, 'God cannot be unfaithful to Himself.'

And, HEY, shhhhhhh, quiet, be SILENT ! For hark! I hear a woman SPEAKING from the pulpit right now.....NOT a missionary either, she's , low and behold, a PASTOR ! And, she's coming to speak at YOUR church, a guest pastor. NOW, listen.............

"Surely, all you out there've heard of The prodigal Son. He left his dear ole dad ,but he learned his lesson and came back, he realized that he was doing the wrong thing, wondered why he was even doing what he was doing, just like, MEN, YOU OUT THERE, would do so so well to realize that when your wife leaves you ever, that she may, indeed, be on a little 'prodigal' journey even IF it's only for ONE EVENING. She may not even tell you either what she's done, but you will have to ask God for the answer, He will answer you when you speak to Him, pray to Him, in His name .
And, when your wife comes back from her 'journey,' having made a mistake, OPEN YOUR ARMS to her, just like the father did his prodigal son . Afterall, isn't that what Jesus would do . '

My, I would MAKE such a great woman preacher , don't ya think

And, did you hear that WISDOM, MEN !!! LOL , yeah, but, yeah, oh, you better believe your darn-tootin male chauvinism inside you, I LOL'd but, yeah, let's just say it quickly: you can learn a lot from a lady (preacher).

 

[GreenNnice]

What makes a woman missionary any different from a woman pastor, as far as 'authority' context goes from 1 Timothy 2:11-12.

A woman[SUP]a[/SUP] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[SUP]b[/SUP] she must be quiet.

Shouldn't these two 1 Tim. verses apply to both a woman pastor and a woman missionary, too, ALL WOMEN, or, does it, maybe, perhaps, only appeal from Paul's lips, to women of 1 Cor. 14:34-35, he's buttressing points even, afterall, doesn't Paul say to 'be quiet' in so many words in both areas of Scripture? I think he does

Women[SUP]f[/SUP] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[SUP]g[/SUP]

And we know in that verse structure of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 that, indeed, Paul is not speaking to women pastors, but to wives of husbands who can disgrace them by their inquisitive behavior of questioning him the whole sermon.

 

[Huckleberry]

What's your definition of 'preach?

Preach is a portmanteau of "pyro" and "teach".
In other words, preaching is "teaching set on fire".
Okay, not really, but that's what my Pastor said tongue-in-cheek, and I liked it.

 

[GreenNnice]

YEah, OK, huckberryrasp, sounds good. You don't think a woman could be a teacher set on fire by God ?

 

[Huckleberry]

YEah, OK, huckberryrasp, sounds good. You don't think a woman could be a teacher set on fire by God ?

Please, don't put words in my mouth.

I'm for woman preachers as long as A- they are not my Pastor, and B- they don't preach to me or my sons twelve years and older (I have two). This same principle applies to our Sunday School classes. Boys and girls twelve years and older are taught by their respective gender.

When missionaries come to our church (which is frequent because our church supports a LOT of missionaries) the visiting missionary will usually preach one or more services for us. Sometimes the ladies will have their own meeting and the missionary's wife preaches a lady-sermon. If the lady missionary is "at the pulpit giving testimony", she is standing with her husband helping him.

That's the way my Pastor runs the church because that's how he believes it is supposed to be done, and we believe likewise. People who disagree with that usually don't join our church. Isn't the United States wonderful?

 

[crossnote]

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

See, this goes beyond the pulpit right to the fabric of man/woman.
But yes, a woman should be able to testify as a missionary...just not teach men.

The conduct of the woman in 1 Tim. 2 is twofold - not the teach or to usurp authority over the man. This is not saying that a woman cannot teach. It is not even saying that a woman cannot have a measure of authority. In 1Cor. 14. 34-34, Paul connects this prohibition to the publicly assembly. Paul is saying that a woman cannot engage in these things in the public assembly. Her obligation here seems to be that of silence. This would then mean that whatever she speaks in this setting would be in violation. This would not seem to apply to her participation in singing because all are given the mandate to sing.

 

[GreenNnice]

that wouldn't happen in my church.
why?
because no one goes up to the pulpit but the Pastor.

but we hear of Lutheran women's missions a lot. at meetings and before and after service.

is that okay, green?
or would she have to interrupt the service and go to the pulpit?

oh, zone, she wouldn't be interrupting the service, it would all be 'planned,' milady

She would be showing everyone her incredible mission trip to natives in the heart of the Congo and how she converted a cannibalistic tribe from the flesh-eating of men to flesh understanding of God who was man, who was Jesus, who is His Spirit in them living

Yeah, and, dare I say, this would be TEACHING MEN. Just would be, they would be learning, but, you all be like crossnoted and keep saying 'there's no place like home, there's no place like---OH , sorry that's not it But, yeah, keep saying this missionary woman is doing nothing but giving her experiences when it just is the way it is planneed by God that when someone speaks you are hearing from God Himself and there is ALWAYS A lesson from God, teaching and so many ways otherwise

 

[zone]

oh, zone, she wouldn't be interrupting the service, it would all be 'planned,' milady

She would be showing everyone her incredible mission trip to natives in the heart of the Congo and how she converted a cannibalistic tribe from the flesh-eating of men to flesh understanding of God who was man, who was Jesus, who is His Spirit in them living

Yeah, and, dare I say, this would be TEACHING MEN. Just would be, they would be learning, but, you all be like crossnoted and keep saying 'there's no place like home, there's no place like---OH , sorry that's not it But, yeah, keep saying this missionary woman is doing nothing but giving her experiences when it just is the way it is planneed by God that when someone speaks you are hearing from God Himself and there is ALWAYS A lesson from God, teaching and so many ways otherwise

nooooo....it wouldn't happen in my church.
no plans are ever made for anyone to speak from the pulpit but the Pastor.
ours is a liturgical service.

if she had an incredible mission report, there would be a place and time for that.
it would not be during the reading of the word, the preaching of the sermon, the communion services; or prayers...no interruption of the service - by ANYONE.

it would be another place at another time...like that evening downstairs or at a conference hall or someone's home.
no women (or men) would expect to have any pre-planned interruption of the service for any reason.

there are 6 other days of the week, and 23 other hours on Sunday to present the mission report.

 

[Reformedjason]

Green , I have visited in a church that had a woman pastor. Gasp!!! I think she was a Godly woman. Oh my!!! I just choose to attend a church that has a man as a pastor. I guess that makes me a macho man or whatever. It also makes me biblical. This really seems to bother you. Most of the conversations that we have had have been about this subject. Can you just not accept that some people would rather have a man preacher than a woman? I can accept that some churches have women pastors. I also prefer an older pastor. Oh no we can discuss that as well. I honestly don't care if you like women preachers. Why do you have the need to defend them?

 

[GreenNnice]

nooooo....it wouldn't happen in my church.
no plans are ever made for anyone to speak from the pulpit but the Pastor.
ours is a liturgical service.

if she had an incredible mission report, there would be a place and time for that.
it would not be during the reading of the word, the preaching of the sermon, the communion services; or prayers...no interruption of the service - by ANYONE.

it would be another place at another time...like that evening downstairs or at a conference hall or someone's home.
no women (or men) would expect to have any pre-planned interruption of the service for any reason.

there are 6 other days of the week, and 23 other hours on Sunday to present the mission report.

That's fine, ohzone, the Lord leads. Whenever He says she would speak, she would speak.
And, OK, yeah, it takes faith in Him to see her blessing your congregation through her words of testimony and sincere faith that bring a light to the congregation that just is God's great plan

I see what you are saying ohzone, too, yes, there is a time and place for everything, seasons, too, and, yes, your service is liturgical so she would be planned into wherever it was fitted by your pastor
--------------------------------

Green , I have visited in a church that had a woman pastor. Gasp!!! I think she was a Godly woman. Oh my!!! I just choose to attend a church that has a man as a pastor. I guess that makes me a macho man or whatever. It also makes me biblical. This really seems to bother you. Most of the conversations that we have had have been about this subject. Can you just not accept that some people would rather have a man preacher than a woman? I can accept that some churches have women pastors. I also prefer an older pastor. Oh no we can discuss that as well. I honestly don't care if you like women preachers. Why do you have the need to defend them?

The Lord leads, and, yeah, we did talk about stuff before, I just don't remember what now that you mention we spoke of exactly, these green brains of mine, they so often cry me a river

Hey, bro, reformedJ, too, that's fine, I'm not trying to get you change how God's made you, all I'm saying is that God works in women for teaching and preaching, but, in what capacity and what way she does it is up for you to believe.
The Lord leads us all differently, you go His way for you and do not feel one iota of guilt about it, because that's just the Enemy getting in, that ole fellow serpent of old, Satan ! Don't go to a church where a woman pastors or a woman guest speaks on her life-changing missionary trip that will be life-changing for you, too, perhaps, that's something of faith, between you and the Lord.

 

[p_rehbein]

Green , I have visited in a church that had a woman pastor. Gasp!!! I think she was a Godly woman. Oh my!!! I just choose to attend a church that has a man as a pastor. I guess that makes me a macho man or whatever. It also makes me biblical. This really seems to bother you. Most of the conversations that we have had have been about this subject. Can you just not accept that some people would rather have a man preacher than a woman? I can accept that some churches have women pastors. I also prefer an older pastor. Oh no we can discuss that as well. I honestly don't care if you like women preachers. Why do you have the need to defend them?

Butting in with my two centavos........maybe Green's defense is because of statements such as the one you posted above...

[It also makes me biblical]

I can easily accept that some people (about 51 to 52% of believers) want a man as a Pastor and not a woman.......just read the account of the "woman at the well." Jesus gave a classic example of how some will BELIEVE THE GOSPEL regardless of WHO is speaking it, and how some WILL ONLY believe it if a MAN is speaking it.

I don't mind those who want only a man as Pastor, and I don't mind those who will accept and support either a man or a woman as Pastor............and that makes me Biblical as well............for the Apostle stated such in the 3rd Chapter of Galatians...........Once we become heirs to the promise, born again, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE in God's eyes, and He will call those He will to fulfill His will, as He will regardless of their earthy shell.

Ok, I'll buttoutsky......

 

[oldhermit]

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

See, this goes beyond the pulpit right to the fabric of man/woman.
But yes, a woman should be able to testify as a missionary...just not teach men.

Think about it a minute crossnote, would her "testifying" be breaking her silence? Why do you feel she should be able to do so when the text will not support it? Would this not represent a disregard for the limitations laid down by the text?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

See, this goes beyond the pulpit right to the fabric of man/woman.
But yes, a woman should be able to testify as a missionary...just not teach men.

women teach me all the time. Thank God I am not so single minded I do not think a woman can teach (like the very people in the society paul wrote too)

look at historical fact and the times, and you will see WHY paul wrote that.

 

[GreenNnice]

Think about it a minute crossnote, would her "testifying" be breaking her silence? Why do you feel she should be able to do so when the text will not support it? Would this not represent a disregard for the limitations laid down by the text?

Let me answer that, oldherm.

No.

The woman missionary is telling of her God-led work in a remote village in Africa, the Congo's about as remote as it gets, right

She's coming home after being there a year and now, home, she is sharing her faith with congregations, which has zero, zip, nothing, nada to do with her being a 'woman' in the church congregation who is to keep their mouths shut and ask questions at home, or, be 'disgraceful' to their husband, which 1 Cor. 14:34-35 states and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 reiterates. These TWO VERSES' passages ARE the same thought, said in different words--but not different context--to TWO DIFFERENT CHURCH folk--Corinth folk and Ephesus folk. Thoughts said to 'women' who are IN CHURCH, and, who are to be quiet in church, not speaking in a role of dominion, or, 'AUTHORITY' during the WORSHIP SERVICE.

Now, are these 'woman' different than a woman called by God , like, ahem, a PASTOR or a MISSIONARY/.

NO?

Of course not, the answer is YES, a pastor and missionary are different roles from God's Spirit GIVEN these TWO women, oldherm

Or, do you think that 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does NOT parallel 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

These verses from BOTH passages of these TWO books of the bible speak of a 'woman' who is to be under the submission of her husband. Again, there is NO mention of a 'woman' being anything more than under her husband's care and not to be speaking out above men's authority. They are NOT a WOMAN PASTOR, this 'woman' defined of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 , nor WOMAN MISSIONARY.

Do you understand the distinction of a 'woman' with NO role in the church but following under her husband AND the woman in the church who is doing more, like a woman missionary would be doing in having gone off to a far-off land God CALLED her to, or, also, a woman who God calls to seminary to become a PASTOR.

Women, in Paul's day and age, were just not put into a pastor role, that's obvious, I don;'t discount that, I don't discredit that, I believe that, that is the Truth, I sure should. Furthermore, a bishop is ONLY described as a 'husband of one wife,' and, this makes him a man. However, Scripture does not go into detail to disclude women from this role completely, it comes CLOSE, I admit that, even a caveman will admit that.

But, to say a woman missionary would have ANY authority over you or woman who is pastoring is a 'no' because ONLY Christ has control over you. Remember, your wife submits to you and YOU submit to Christ Also, Christ and the church are 'one flesh,' Scripture tells us. So,there is NO authority there for either man or WOMAN, and, the church is defined as BOTH men and women, and, defined as Christ's 'bride.'

n this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[SUP]c[/SUP] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

 

[oldhermit]

Let me answer that, oldherm.

No.

The woman missionary is telling of her God-led work in a remote village in Africa, the Congo's about as remote as it gets, right

She's coming home after being there a year and now, home, she is sharing her faith with congregations, which has zero, zip, nothing, nada to do with her being a 'woman' in the church congregation who is to keep their mouths shut and ask questions at home, or, be 'disgraceful' to their husband, which 1 Cor. 14:34-35 states and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 reiterates. These TWO VERSES' passages ARE the same thought, said in different words--but not different context--to TWO DIFFERENT CHURCH folk--Corinth folk and Ephesus folk. Thoughts said to 'women' who are IN CHURCH, and, who are to be quiet in church, not speaking in a role of dominion, or, 'AUTHORITY' during the WORSHIP SERVICE.

Now, are these 'woman' different than a woman called by God , like, ahem, a PASTOR or a MISSIONARY/.

NO?

Of course not, the answer is YES, a pastor and missionary are different roles from God's Spirit GIVEN these TWO women, oldherm

Or, do you think that 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does NOT parallel 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

These verses from BOTH passages of these TWO books of the bible speak of a 'woman' who is to be under the submission of her husband. Again, there is NO mention of a 'woman' being anything more than under her husband's care and not to be speaking out above men's authority. They are NOT a WOMAN PASTOR, this 'woman' defined of 1 Cor. 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 , nor WOMAN MISSIONARY.

Do you understand the distinction of a 'woman' with NO role in the church but following under her husband AND the woman in the church who is doing more, like a woman missionary would be doing in having gone off to a far-off land God CALLED her to, or, also, a woman who God calls to seminary to become a PASTOR.

Women, in Paul's day and age, were just not put into a pastor role, that's obvious, I don;'t discount that, I don't discredit that, I believe that, that is the Truth, I sure should. Furthermore, a bishop is ONLY described as a 'husband of one wife,' and, this makes him a man. However, Scripture does not go into detail to disclude women from this role completely, it comes CLOSE, I admit that, even a caveman will admit that.

But, to say a woman missionary would have ANY authority over you or woman who is pastoring is a 'no' because ONLY Christ has control over you. Remember, your wife submits to you and YOU submit to Christ Also, Christ and the church are 'one flesh,' Scripture tells us. So,there is NO authority there for either man or WOMAN, and, the church is defined as BOTH men and women, and, defined as Christ's 'bride.'

It makes no difference what she is speaking or why she is speaking it or what our attitude about it is, nor does it matter how much value we may place on the individual or on what is being said. The bottom line is Paul says she is to be silent!!!

 

[GreenNnice]

It makes no difference what she is speaking or why she is speaking it or what our attitude about it is, nor does it matter how much value we may place on the individual or on what is being said. The bottom line is Paul says she is to be silent!!!

And, I agree, the wife sitting next to her husband in the congregation is to be silent , or she is "disgraceful" being.
1 Cor. 14:34-35

And, I also add, the woman who is in the church, not married, is to be silent and in full submission to the pastor speaking and she is not to teach she's in authority or usurp (swallow up) the authority of the men in the church. They are the leaders.

This is Truth .

Women, who are not 'wives' and women who are not just in the church listening to the pastor, or, person speaking, DO have different roles, and, God puts them in those roles.

Again, just because you want to include 'woman' as ALL women, that still doesn't mean you can do it, oldherm, and, women who are called by God to do other work, like a woman who becomes a PASTOR, or, MISSIONARY, in the church HAVE different roles and are, obviously, not being called to be quiet when God goes and does a work through them. God wants us to us His gift (Holy Spirit) given us to bless others and help others in their faith, which is EXACTLY what a WOMAN MISSIONARY would be doing.

Be careful, bro, don't quench the Spirit and a lot of women have had God call them to missionary work and it was not to then sit on their hands and knees, it is to report back what good God did, what goodness He showed her for others to have their faiths' grown by Him through having heard this missionary woman speak . The Lord leads