Yahweh and Yeshua: A Comparison and Contrast

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#21
Thanks everyone for a very insightful discussion so far! I'll leave a more detailed reply later as I need to get ready for work soon but I will add these two thoughts for now:

The Trinity: We could go in circles for years on end trying to figure out how this works. Is each Person simply "One in Spirit" but separate otherwise? Or are They truly One? As in the Father IS the Son IS the Holy Spirit?

Right now the only answer I can find in my spirit is, Yes. Both, at the same time. And perhaps even more than both. It's beyond what our mere mortal minds could ever dream of comprehending. It doesn't make logical sense but then how can it make logical sense when we are trying to analyze the Mind and Persons of the One who created everything and invented what we know as logic? Just my thoughts on that aspect of the discussion.

The other point, to clear some things up. I should have been more specific earlier about what I struggle with in the OT about God.

It's not God pouring out His divine wrath that I struggle with. For He indeed poured out the flood waters in the days of Noah. He wiped out Sodom with His own hand. He brought the plagues upon Egypt to set His people free.

He is God, He can do these things to protect His people. Who am I to question this?

The problem, for me, begins when reading through the books of Numbers through Judges, and then again in parts of Samuel, where it is written that God commands His people multiple times to commit brutal acts of war for Him. THIS is where I struggle the most in reconciling with Jesus in the NT.
No need to struggle. The God of the Old Testament said not to kill. Jesus took it further and said not even to insult people by calling them a fool (raca). Just one example.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mat 5:21-22 KJV)

Jesus told them who their God was in John 8:44. And it wasn't either Jesus or the Father. Mystery solved.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#22
Very insightful. Thanks! Question for you; those verses you quoted in Matthew and John with the Tetragrammaton, what version or manuscript(s) is that from?

I'm trying to figure out if we have any writings that recorded Yeshua referring to His Father as YHWH directly? I've checked in my blue letter bible app on an interlinear of both the LXX and Textus Receptus but all I could find was the word "kyrios" for Lord or other general greek terms for "He who sent me" or "Father".
thank you and praiseYah! This is a very interesting topic! The verses are from "the Scriptures 2009 Ed." and yes kyrios and Theos are used in the Greek, if we look to the Septuigint, we can see were YHWH was they translated it as Theos and Kyrios; and as I will show I fully believe YHWH is being used, this I mostly translate it YHWH when tylking about the Father, sometimes other things dependiong on context, and theos is also used to talk about "gods" as in not the Father, so used accordingly in my use;

Greek to Hebrew and Hebrew to Greek, Dictionary of Septuagint Words
G2316 * θεός (theos)
theos H47 * אַבִּיר ('abbîr) avir
theos H136 * אֲדֹנָי ('ăḏōnāy) adonai
theos H410 * אֵל ('ēl) el
theos H430 * אֱלֹהִים ('ĕlōhîm) #elohim
theos H433 * אֱלֹהַּ אֱלוֹהַּ ('ĕlōhah 'ĕlôhah) eloah
theos H457 * אֱלִיל ('ĕlîl) elil
theos H3068 * יְהֹוָה (yəhōwāh) yehovah
theos H5943 * עִלָּי (ʿillāy) illai
theos H6091 * עָצָב (ʿāṣāḇ) atsav
theos H6697 * צֻר צוּר (ṣur ṣûr) tsur
theos H6944 * קֹדֶשׁ (qōḏeš) qodesh
theos H7706 * שַׁדַּי (šadday) shaddai


G2962 * κύριος (kurios)
kurios H113 * אָדֹן אָדוֹן ('āḏōn 'āḏôn) adon
kurios H136 * אֲדֹנָי ('ăḏōnāy) adonai
kurios H136 * אֲדֹנָי ('ăḏōnāy) adonai yehovih
kurios H410 * אֵל ('ēl) el
kurios H430 * אֱלֹהִים ('ĕlōhîm) elohim
kurios H433 * אֱלֹהַּ אֱלוֹהַּ ('ĕlōhah 'ĕlôhah) eloah
kurios H1167 * בַּעַל (baʿal) baal
kurios H1376 * גְּבִיר (gəḇîr) gevir
kurios H3068 * יְהֹוָה (yəhōwāh) #yehovah
kurios H4756 * מָרֵא (mārē') mare
kurios H4911 * מָשַׁל (māšal) mashal
kurios H6697 * צֻר צוּר (ṣur ṣûr) tsur
kurios H7706 * שַׁדַּי (šadday) shaddai
kurios H7980 * שָׁלַט (šālaṭ) shelat aph.
kurios H7989 * שַּׁלִּיט ּׁallîṭ) shallit

Also the original copoies of the LXX YHWH ws used, it was later copies that removed it;

THE DIVINE NAME (pg 10 of 1950 version of the NWT)One of the remarkable facts, not only about the extant manuscripts of the original text, but in many versions, ancient and modern, is the absence of the divine name... a recently found papyrus roll of the LXX. (P. Fouad 266) This contains the second half of the book of Deuteronomy. Not one of these fragments shows an example of Kyrios or Theos used instead of the divine name, but in each instance the Tetragrammaton is written in Aramaic characters...In about 128 A.D. Aquila's Greek version had the Tetragrammaton in archaic Hebrew letters. About 245 Origen produced his famous Hexapla, this being a six column reproduction of the inspired ancient scriptures 1) in their Original Hebrew and Aramaic, accompanied by 2) a transliteration into Greek, and 3) Greek versions by Aquila, 4) Symmachus, 5) the Seventy (LXX), and 6) Theodotion. In the second column of the Hexapla, the Tetragrammaton was written in Hebrew characters, whereas columns 3 and 4 and 5...all represented the Tetragrammaton by the similar Greek characters.

There is a Hebrewes versiuon of Matthew also, and if I remember correctly the vowels of YHWH are there but the vowel points of adonai or elohim are writetn over it as the pharisees did not allow people to speak the name of YHWH so this was a reminder to not speak it, this is one of the exact problems Yahshua had with them, I believe He spoike His Fathers name after all when He said;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, from now on you shall by no means see Me, until you say, ‘Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]!

Which of course was more than about YHWH's name but about them rejectiung Yahshua, but when He said it I in no way believe Hew said "blessed is He who camnes in the name of adonai/elohim'the name/he shem, etc)

[/FONT][/FONT]
We can also see times where there are direct NT quote from the OT;


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yahyl/Joel 2:31-32, "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of YHWH comes And whoever will call with the Name of YHWH will be delivered; for in Mount Zion in Yerusalem there will be deliverance, as YHWH has said, among the remnant whom YHWH calls."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 2:20-21, "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of YHWH comes. And it will come to pass that whoever calls on the Name of YHWH will be delivered."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 2:20-21, "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of YHWH comes. And it will come to pass that whoever calls on the Name of the LORD will be delivered."



Finally there has been new manuscript discoveries in the past year or son that I believe will shed some light on this matter further, but as of right now I think only people in Israel and with degrees have access to them.
[/FONT]
 
Aug 8, 2017
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#23
Thanks for your response. Yes, I do believe that the Father and the Son are one. Jesus himself declares this. I believe the Holy Spirit is one with count the Father and Son as well. There is no doubt about that.

What I am trying to do right now is step back a bit from what I've learned before as I really start diving into scripture, and dig deep into Who Jesus was referring to as His Father.

The question is, are many of the acts of YHWH in the OT... well, would I be so bold to speculate that perhaps many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God? Jesus' description of His Heavenly Father, as well as His own personality, are so very different from how YHWH is described many times in the Torah.

I can't help but wonder at times, was He trying to tell us something through that? Has the church been misinterpreting what Jesus was trying to tell us all this time? I mean, consider what Jesus tells the Pharisees in John... He tells th their father is the devil who was a man slayer from the beginning! Those are VERY strong words He uses...

I understand this speculation is pretty contrary to what the majority of churches teach as doctrine on the relationship between the testaments. But I'm truly trying to read the Word for what it says. And that's why I'm trying to compare and contrast here.

Does this make sense?
Yes it's makes perfect sense
 
Aug 8, 2017
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#24
friend.. I have seen many try and seperate the Father and Son.. some believe that the GOD of the Old Testament is not the same as the New.. GOD can not be judged... GOD is Righteous and GOOD always...

Here is a thought.. how bad must the earth of become in the times of Noah.. for GOD to have to flood it..

I see the same GOD in both Testaments.. One True Almighty GOD Father of our Lord and Saviour.


The Messiah knows whom those Pharisees worshipped... If they had worshipped GOD they would of Honoured and knew His Son...

I see a Righteous GOD doing what was needed to be done to save His Creation..

Many do not know the depths or the realm of this life... we are here to learn.. to know Good and Evil and choose Good through Faith in Christ we can be given the right to the Tree of life...


Reading the Bible from beginning to end.. page upon page.. GOD is there throughout pleading with His Creation to listen to Him.. anything less is rebellion.. and the rebellious disobedient will not inherit eternal life..
You said he is pleading with his creation to listen to him.
But what is it that he is wanting them to hear?

It seems to me that the op is trying to do just that and instead of anyone saying ok let's look at what your saying and compare and CONTRAST everyone is doing the comparing but not the contrasting. Hmmm interesting
 
Last edited:

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#25
The question is, are many of the acts of YHWH in the OT... well, would I be so bold to speculate that perhaps many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God? Jesus' description of His Heavenly Father, as well as His own personality, are so very different from how YHWH is described many times in the Torah.
The problem, for me, begins when reading through the books of Numbers through Judges, and then again in parts of Samuel, where it is written that God commands His people multiple times to commit brutal acts of war for Him. THIS is where I struggle the most in reconciling with Jesus in the NT.
This doctrine stared by a man named Marcion, thus Marcionisim;
Mar·cion·ism: the doctrinal system of a sect of the second and third centuries a.d. accepting some parts of the New Testament (Paul) but denying Christ's corporality and humanity and condemning the Creator God of the Old Testament.

There are a number really big things people are missing when holding to this or a similar view, I will touch on 3 here.

#1. They would have to ignore much of what Yahshua/Jesus said. A number of those verses I posted Yahshua said He came to do His Fathers will, so to remove those attributes from YHWH and only appply them to Yahshua is to turn a blind eye to Yahshua's own words. How can we build a religion of of Yahshua'Jesus and surgically remove much of what He said?

#2. The name Yahshua/Jesus; the very meaning of it is YHWH's Salvation, how could He not be of YHWH and be YHWH's Salvation?;

“Jesus” is word #G2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous (yee-sous') n/p., 1. (meaning) He is Salvation, Yahweh saves (i.e. the Savior)., 2. (person) Jesus (i.e. Yeshua, Yehoshua), the name of our Lord, also called the Last Adam., 3. (person) Joshua (i.e. Yehoshua) an Israelite, the servant and successor of Moses., 4. (person) Jeshua, also called Justus, an Israelite, a coworker with Paul., 5. (NOTE) (“Jesus” is a valid English transliteration, coming from Ancient Hebrew to Koine Greek (via the Septuagint) to Latin to Old English to Modern English. It is completely acceptable to God (Yahweh) for us call upon the Savior's name as “Jesus,” or “Iesous,” or “Yeshua,” or even “Yesu” as in Christian Arabic or in the Fijian Islands, et al. God prepared for all nations to be able to trust in the Savior and to call upon his name by preparing a language dialect for international use: the Hebraic-Koine Greek. Thus, technically and formally, the pronunciation “Iesous” was intentionally established by the Savior as the common basis for Jewish and Gentile acknowledgment of his Redemption and Salvation, going forth as needed into every tribe, native tongue, people, and nation. “Yeshua” is of course delightfully acceptable to him, when it is not used as an exclusionary name. Love edifies)., 6. (NOTE) (Revelation 3:12)., [of Hebrew origin (H3442 as the shortened form of H3091)], KJV: Jesus, Root(s): H3442, See also: H3091

Root word of Jesus” is word #G2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous -H3442 יֵשׁוַּע Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah) n/l., 1. he will save., 2. Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Israel., [for H3091], KJV: Jeshua. , Root(s): H3091

Root word of Jesus” is word #G2424 Ἰησοῦς Iesous - H3091 יְהוֹשׁוּעַ YhowShuw`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah) n/p., יְהוֹשֻׁעַ YhowShu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah), 1. Yahweh-saved.2. Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader., [from H3068 and H3467], KJV: Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua., Root(s): H3068, H3467, Compare: H1954, H3442

#3 in next post
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#26
#3. One would have to ignore Yahshua's return as a conquering Lion. If we isolate Yahshua as the suffering Lamb, this is possible, but the NT speaks of His retuern as a conquering Lion. It was not His role in His first coming to execute judgement, nor slay the wicked. Yet in NT writings we see He does just this upon His second return;

Isaiah 31:4, "For this is what יהוה has said to me, “As a lion roars, and a young lion over his prey, though a band of shepherds is called out against him, he is not afraid of their voice nor disturbed by their noise, so יהוה of hosts shall come down to fight upon Mount Tsiyon and upon its hill.”

Genesis 49:9-11, “Yehuḏah is a lion’s cub; from the prey you have gone up, my son! He bowed down, he crouched like a lion. And like a lion, who does rouse him? The scepter shall not turn aside from Yehuḏah, nor an Inscriber from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to Him is the obedience of peoples. Binding his donkey to the vine, and his donkey’s colt to the choice vine, he washed his garments in wine, and his robes in the blood of grapes.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself – and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:2) and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty Strength. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.”

Joel 3:12-14, “Let the nations be aroused, and come up to the Valley of Yehoshaphat. For there I shall sit to judge all the nations on every side. Put in the sickle (Revelation 14:12-20), for the harvest has grown ripe. Come, go down, for the wine press is filled, the vats overflow, for their evil is great. Crowds, crowds in the valley of decision! For the day of יהוה is near in the valley of decision.”

Revelation 17:4-5, “And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup filled with abominations and the filthiness of her whoring, and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: BAḆEL THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE WHORES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

Jeremiah 51:6-13, “Flee from the midst of Baḇel, (Revelation 18:4) and let each one save his life! Do not be cut off in her crookedness, for this is the time of the vengeance of יהוה, the recompense He is repaying her. Baḇel was a golden cup in the hand of יהוה, making drunk all the earth.b The nations drank her wine, that is why the nations went mad! (Rev 17:1-18) Baḇel shall suddenly fall and be broken. Howl for her! Take balm for her pain – if so be, she might be healed. We would have healed Baḇel, but she is not healed. Let us leave her and each go to his own land, for her judgment reaches to the heavens and is lifted up to the clouds. יהוה has brought forth our righteousness. Come and let us relate in Tsiyon the work of יהוה our Strength. Polish the arrows! Put on the shields! יהוה has stirred up the spirit of the sovereigns of the Medes. For His plan is against Baḇel to destroy it, because it is the vengeance of יהוה, the vengeance for His Hĕḵal. Lift up a banner on the walls of Baḇel, strengthen the watch, station the watchmen, prepare the ambush. For יהוה has both planned and done what He spoke concerning the inhabitants of Baḇel. Because of the wrath of יהוה she shall not be inhabited, but she shall be deserted – all of it. Everyone passing by Baḇel shall be astonished and whistle at all her plagues.”

Jeremiah 50:28, “Listen! They flee and escape from the land of Baḇel, to declare in Tsiyon the vengeance of יהוה our Strength, the vengeance of His Temple.”

Revelation 18:4-8, “And I heard another voice from the heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. Because her sins have piled up to reach the heaven, and יהוה has remembered her unrighteousness. Render to her as she indeed did render, and repay her double according to her works. In the cup which she has mixed, mix for her double. As much as she esteemed herself and lived riotously, so much torture and grief give to her, because in her heart she says, ‘I sit as sovereigness, and I am not a widow, and I do not see mourning at all. Because of this her plagues shall come in one day: death and mourning and scarcity of food. And she shall be burned up with fire, because יהוה our Strength who judges her is mighty.”

Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of יהוה sent out into all the earth."

Revelation 14:12-20, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of יהוה and the belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them. And I looked and saw a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was One like the Son of Aḏam, (Dan 7:13-14) having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place, crying with a loud voice to the One sitting on the cloud, “Send Your sickle and reap, because the hour has come for You to reap, because the harvest of the earth is ripe. And the One sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another messenger came out of the Dwelling Place which is in the heaven, and he too held a sharp sickle. And another messenger came out from the slaughter-place, having authority over the fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, “Send your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe. And the messenger thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great wine press of the wrath of יהוה. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the wine press, up to the bridles of the horses, for about one thousand six hundred stadiad. (Approx. 296 kilometres or 184 miles)”

Isaiah 63:2-6, “Why is there red on Your raiment, and Your garments like one who treads in the wine press? I have trodden the wine press alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. And I trod them down in My displeasure, and I trampled them in My wrath. Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have defiled all My raiment. For a day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come. And I looked, but there was none helping, and I was astonished that there was none upholding. So My own arm saved for Me, and My wrath upheld Me. And I trod down peoples in My displeasure, and made them drunk in My wrath, and brought down their strength to earth.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw the heaven opened, and there was a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having a Name that had been written, which no one had perceived except Himself – and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood (Isaiah 63:2) and His Name is called: The Word of יהוה. And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations. And He shall shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty Strength. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS AND MASTER OF MASTERS.”

Hebrews 4:12, “For the Word of Yah is living, and working, and sharper than any two-edged sword, cutting through even to the dividing of being and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

Isaiah 11:1-5, “And a Rod shall come forth from the stump of Yishai, and a Sprout from his roots shall be fruitful. The Spirit of יהוה shall rest upon Him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of יהוה, "and shall make Him breathe in the fear of יהוה. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears. But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips. And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and trustworthiness the girdle of His waist. And a wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and a leopard lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child leads them. And cow and bear shall feed, their young ones lie down together, and a lion eat straw like an ox. And the nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the adder’s den. They do no evil nor destroy in all My set-apart mountain, for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of יהוה as the waters cover the sea.” (Hab 2:14)

Revelation 11:18, “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Psalms 2:1-12, "2:1, "Why do the nations rage, And the peoples meditate emptiness? (Mat 4:25-26. See also Dan 2:44, Dan 7:13-28, Hag 2:22, Zec 14:9 and Rev 11:15) The sovereigns of the earth take their stand, And the rulers take counsel together, Against יהוה and against His Messiah, and say, Let us tear apart Their bonds, And throw away Their ropes from us.”"2:4, " He who is sitting in the heavens laughs, יהוה mocks at them. Then He speaks to them in His wrath, And troubles them in His rage, saying,"2:6, "“ But I, I have set My Sovereign on Tsiyon, My set-apart mountain. I inscribe for a law: יהוה has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have brought You forth. Ask of Me, and I make the nations Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth Your possession. Break them with a rod of iron, Dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel. And now, be wise, O sovereigns; Be instructed, you rulers of the earth. Serve יהוה with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest He be enraged, And you perish in the way, For soon His wrath is to be kindled. Blessed are all those taking refuge in Him.”

Revelation 22:12, “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.”

Isaiah 11:10, “And in that day there shall be a Root of Yishai, standing as a banner to the people. Unto Him the nations shall seek, and His rest shall be esteem.”

Yahanan/John 18:36, "יהושע answered, “My reign is not of this world. If My Kingdom and authority were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Yehuḏim. But now My Kingdom and authority is not from here.”

Mat 16:27, 16:27“For the Son of Aḏam is going to come in the esteem of His Father with His messengers, and then He shall reward each according to his works.”

John 5:29.”and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment.”

1 Corinthians 15:20-26, “But now Messiah has been raised from the dead, and has become the first-fruit of those having fallen asleep. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a Man. For as all die in Aḏam, so also all shall be made alive in Messiah . And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming, then the end, when He delivers up the reign to Yah the Father, when He has brought to naught all rule and all authority and power. For He has to reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be brought to naught is death.”
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#27
#3 Continued;

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, “Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of יהוה, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of יהוה, for which you also suffer, since יהוה shall rightly repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give you who are afflicted rest with us when the Master יהושע is revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know יהוה, and on those who do not obey the Good News of our Master יהושע Messiah, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Master and from the esteem of His strength, when He comes to be esteemed in His set-apart ones and to be admired among all those who believe in that Day, because our witness to you was believed.”

Matthew 24:35, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

Hebrews 1:10-12, “And, “You, Master, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You remain, and they shall all grow old like a garment, and like a mantle You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.”

Hebrews 12:25-29, “Take heed not to refuse the One speaking. For if those did not escape who refused the warning on earth, much less we who turn away from Him from heaven, whose voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” And this, “Yet once more,” makes clear the removal of what is shaken – as having been made – so that the unshaken matters might remain. Therefore, receiving an unshakable reign, let us hold the favor, through which we serve Yah pleasingly with reverence and awe, for indeed, our Mighty One is a consuming fire.”

Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened.

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, יהוה Shammah, coming down from יהוה out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of יהוה is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and יהוה Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Luke 24:25, "He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!"

2 Peter/Kepha 3:1-11, "1 This is now, beloved ones, the second letter I write to you, in which I stir up your sincere mind, to remember 2 the words previously spoken by the set-apart prophets, and of the command of the Master and Saviour, spoken by your emissaries, 3 knowing this first: that mockers shall come in the last days with mocking, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they choose to have this hidden from them: that the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by the Word of Yah, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 And the present heavens and the earth are treasured up by the same Word, being kept for fire, to a day of judgment and destruction of wicked men. 8 But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you: that with יהוה one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of יהוה shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up. 11 Seeing all these are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be in set-apart (holy) behavior and reverence,”

2 Peter/Kepha 3:12-18, “looking for and hastening the coming of the day of Yah, through which the heavens shall be destroyed, being set on fire, and the elements melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we wait for a renewed heavens and a renewed earth in which righteousness dwells. So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmiĕn."

1 Peter/Kepha 1:13-16, “Therefore, having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, set your expectation perfectly upon the favor that is to be brought to you at the revelation of יהושע Messiah, as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts in your ignorance, instead, as the One who called you is set-apart (holy), so you also should become set-apart (holy) in all behavior, because it has been written, “Be set-apart (holy), for I am set-apart (holy).”

John 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

2 Corinthians 5:-4, “For we know that if the tent of our earthly house is destroyed, we have a building from Yah, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, longing to put on our dwelling which is from heaven, so that, having put it on, we shall not be found naked. For indeed, we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we wish to put it off, but to put on the other, so that what is to die might be swallowed up by life.”

Revelation 21:7-8, “The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Father and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says יהוה of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says יהוה of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiyl 18:20-28, "The soul that sins, it will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is Lawful and right, then he will surely live; he will not die. And his transgressions that he has committed will not be mentioned against him; in his righteousness that he has done, he will live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father יהוה: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live. But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does – should he live? All his righteousness that he has done will not be mentioned in his behalf. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he will die. Yet you say; The way of יהוה is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israyl: Is not My way equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and dies, it is because of the iniquity he has done, that he will die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is Lawful and right, he will save himself, and live. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he will surely live; he will not die."

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left*.

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, *there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mat 24:37-9, "“And as the days of Noaḥ, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be. For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noaḥ entered into the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be.”

Luke 17:28, "“And likewise, as it came to be in the days of Lot: They were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building, but on the day Lot went out of Seḏom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed all. It shall be the same in the day the Son of Aḏam is revealed.”

John 6:35-39, “And יהושע said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall not get hungry at all, and he who believes in Me shall not get thirsty at all. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and still do not believe. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I shall by no means cast out. Because I have come down out of the heaven, not to do My own desire, but the desire of Him who sent Me. This is the desire of the Father who sent Me, that all He has given Me I should not lose of it, but should raise it in the last day.”

Revelation 10:7, "but in the days of the sounding of the seventh messenger, when he is about to sound, the secret of יהוהshall also be ended, as He declared to His servants the prophets."

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#28
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There are more passages showing what YHWH foretold by the mouth of the prophets will indeed be fulfilled by Yahshua/Jesus as the conquering Lion and that there is no difference in morality, judgment or righteousness concerning YHWH and Yahshua. Finally, we can look to the Moadim or Feast Days of YHWH, they are literal prophecies of Yahshua as the suffering Lamb and His return as the conquering Lion;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There are 2 "it is done" statements...

Fulfilled already
John 19:30, “So when
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]took the sour wine He said, “It is done!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Fulfilled already- To be fulfilled in the future

1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits – presenting Himself to YHWH)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever

4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever


To be fulfilled in the future
Revelation 21:4-8, “And Yah shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away. And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy. And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Strength and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
[/FONT]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#29
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 9:13, “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering. For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hosea 6:6, “For I delight in loving-commitment and not sacrifice, and in the knowledge of Yah more than ascending offerings.”[/FONT]
 

JairCrawford

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
6
0
#30
The idea that the God of the Old Testament was different from the God of the New Testament is a myth that has been promoted by theological liberals and the Higher Critics, who also claimed that Judaism was an "evolved" religion. But those people have also asserted that Jesus was merely a good deluded rabbi. So their ideas should be totally rejected.

There is more than enough evidence in the OT to establish the fact that YHWH is none other than Yeshua. And that the name I AM applies as much to Him as to God the Father. What is clear in the OT is that the true God brought judgment upon sinners and rebels before the coming of Christ, and those judgments are described in the OT to warn us that God does not take sin and evil lightly. But He also gave ample warning to those who would be destroyed, and His grace and mercy are also shown time after time.

However during this Age of Grace, God has been withholding His judgments, but now they are coming through natural disasters, and in the near future He will pour out His wrath on the unbelieving and the ungodly world as described in the New Testament, particularly in Revelation. Eventually this whole earth will be burned up with supernatural fire so that the New Heavens and the New Earth can be established.
Of course they believed Jesus was a deluded rabbi. The vast majority of them probably do not believe in the supernatural at all, so they will write off the resurrection as mythology. You and I both know however that Christianity could not have spread so fast as it did, as far as it did, if there was no resurrection. The very idea is preposterous. Jesus' death and resurrection rocked the entire globe. That being said, some of these scholars, and archeologists, though severely flawed in their theologies, have unearthed some very fascinating insight into the ancient near east.

As for the second point, I agree, but I also believe one could find many passages in scripture that could potentially challenge this as well. I will likely not be able to get around to posting specifics until Tuesday as I have work today and tomorrow.

For your third point, that is what I have heard from churches. This idea that God was angry and wrathful in the OT but then "changed his tune" after Jesus came and decided to show more grace, I propose, could be a misinterpretation of scripture by the church. Why? Because Jesus himself seemed to challenge this notion almost constantly with His teachings, actions, and His very personality. What the church has done by emphatically and stubbornly refusing any interpretation of the attributes of the OT God except for a literal one, is ultimately teaching a doctrine that describes a God with "multiple-personalities". But Jesus said that before the foundation of time, I AM! And scripture clearly states that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. How can we reconcile this with the traditional teachings of the church on how to interpret the OT? To me it seems to clash with Jesus' ministry and teachings.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
113
#31
When Jesus/Yahshua says 'I and my Father are One' Joh 10v30, I believe it to mean that they are 'One in Spirit' but separate in Being.
But you will find that trad christianity has a different take on this and believes the Father and the Son to be one and the same Person/Being...hence the many disagreements.
Actually beta your close but your wording is a little off. Let me explain. At John 10:30 it literally says I and My Father we are one." They are one in the sense that they have the same nature but they (the Trinity) are three DISTINCT persons. They are "NOT" three separate beings. There is only one being of God.

Look at it this way? You have the same nature as your parents which would be "human" but you are a distinct person from your parents. So when Jesus said He was one with His Father He meant that He was one in nature with His Father. This is why the Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy not only here at John 10:33 but also at John 5:18, John 8:58, John 19:7 and at the trial of Jesus at Matthew 26:65. The words, "being," "person," "separate," and "distinct," have different meanings depending on the context. It is true that these words are sometimes used synonymously but not in this case.

The second you said, "separate in Being" those that don't know God and some that do know God automatically think your saying there are three gods. In short, always be careful in how you word things because it can lead to wrong conclusions. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
113
#32
Thanks for your response. Yes, I do believe that the Father and the Son are one. Jesus himself declares this. I believe the Holy Spirit is one with count the Father and Son as well. There is no doubt about that.

What I am trying to do right now is step back a bit from what I've learned before as I really start diving into scripture, and dig deep into Who Jesus was referring to as His Father.

The question is, are many of the acts of YHWH in the OT... well, would I be so bold to speculate that perhaps many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God? Jesus' description of His Heavenly Father, as well as His own personality, are so very different from how YHWH is described many times in the Torah.

I can't help but wonder at times, was He trying to tell us something through that? Has the church been misinterpreting what Jesus was trying to tell us all this time? I mean, consider what Jesus tells the Pharisees in John... He tells th their father is the devil who was a man slayer from the beginning! Those are VERY strong words He uses...

I understand this speculation is pretty contrary to what the majority of churches teach as doctrine on the relationship between the testaments. But I'm truly trying to read the Word for what it says. And that's why I'm trying to compare and contrast here.

Does this make sense?
Hi jair, and welcome to the forums. Could you please unpack this statement of yours: "The question is, are many of the acts of YHWH in the OT... well, would I be so bold to speculate that perhaps many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God? Jesus' description of His Heavenly Father, as well as His own personality, are so very different from how YHWH is described many times in the Torah."

I don't really understand what your getting at? What do you mean, "many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God?" Sorry but I don't get what your saying. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#33
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Psalm 138:2

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#34
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Psalm 138:2

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
What do you think the I AM, "God with us," would say about this?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Num 31:9-18)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,237
26,288
113
#35
I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give
to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
Isaiah 42:8

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the
glory I had with you before the world began
.
John 17:5

[TABLE="width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them,I and My Father are one.Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

.
 

JairCrawford

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
6
0
#36
Hi jair, and welcome to the forums. Could you please unpack this statement of yours: "The question is, are many of the acts of YHWH in the OT... well, would I be so bold to speculate that perhaps many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God? Jesus' description of His Heavenly Father, as well as His own personality, are so very different from how YHWH is described many times in the Torah."

I don't really understand what your getting at? What do you mean, "many of those acts were miss attributed to the true God?" Sorry but I don't get what your saying. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I mean that in instances where things God is said to have done perhaps may have been miss attributed to Him by the OT writers due to their beliefs and different perspectives on God back then, yet He still allowed it in His Holy Word but not necessarily for us to interpret literally, but perhaps more like parables, since Jesus spoke in parables and perhaps for us to read into what Jesus said and compare it to how the OT writers wrote.

That is what I'm proposing. And no I am not suggesting that the OT is in error by saying this. But perhaps misinterpreted over time?
 

JairCrawford

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
6
0
#37
What do you think the I AM, "God with us," would say about this?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Num 31:9-18)
To be fair, this quote is attributed to Moses, not God. So one could argue that God did not necessarily ordain that command even with a super literal interpretation of the text.

The same cannot be said for the similar command in Samuel however, dealing with the Amalekites. That one remains a major head scratcher.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#38
What do you think the I AM, "God with us," would say about this?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Num 31:9-18)
This will never be talked about in church and I don't like to get into it much because it is too deep for most, but it is Biblical fact.

The Midianites were allied with the Amalakites (who were decendants of nephillim and raphaim; humans mixed with fallen angels). They, the Midianites and Amalakites woiuld destroy the land of Israyl seeking to desroy their whole people;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 6:4, "The Nephilim (5303) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, the men of name."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Numbers 13:21-33, “13:21, "So they went up and spied out the land from the Wilderness of Tsin as far as Reḥoḇ, near the entrance of Ḥamath."13:22, "And they went up through the South and came to Ḥeḇron. And Aḥiman, Shĕshai, and Talmai, the descendants of Anaq, were there. Now Ḥeḇron had been built seven years before Tso‛an in Mitsrayim."13:23, "And they came to the wadi Eshkol, and cut down from there a branch with one cluster of grapes. And they bore it between two of them on a pole, also of the pomegranates and of the figs."13:24, "That place was called the wadi Eshkol, because of the cluster which the men of Yisra’ĕl cut down from there."13:25, "And they returned from spying out the land after forty days."13:26, "And they went and came to Mosheh and Aharon and all the congregation of the children of Yisra’ĕl in the Wilderness of Paran, at Qaḏĕsh. And they brought back word to them and to all the congregation, and showed them the fruit of the land."13:27, "And they reported to him, and said, “We went to the land where you sent us. And truly, it flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit."13:28, "“But the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are walled, very great. And we saw the descendants of Anaq there too."13:29, "“The Amalĕqites dwell in the land of the South, while the Ḥittites and the Yeḇusites and the Amorites dwell in the mountains. And the Kena‛anites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Yardĕn.”"13:30, "And Kalĕḇ silenced the people before Mosheh, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are certainly able to overcome it.”"13:31, "But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.”"13:32, "And they gave the children of Yisra’ĕl an evil report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land eating up its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size."13:33, "“And we saw there the Nephilim, sons of Anaq, of the Nephilim. And we were like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and so we were in their eyes.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Judges 6:1-40, "6:1, "And the children of Yisra’ĕl did evil in the eyes of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]gave them into the hand of Miḏyan for seven years,"6:2, "and the hand of Miḏyan was strong against Yisra’ĕl. And before the faces of the Miḏyanites the children of Yisra’ĕl made for themselves the refuges which are in the mountains, and the caves, and the strongholds."6:3, "And it came to be, whenever Yisra’ĕl had sown, that Miḏyan would come up, and Amalĕq and the people of the East would come up against them,"6:4, "and encamp against them and destroy the increase of the soil as far as Azzah, and leave no food in Yisra’ĕl, neither sheep nor ox nor donkey."6:5, "For they came up with their livestock and their tents, coming in as numerous as locusts. And they and their camels were without number. And they came into the land to destroy it."6:6, "Thus Yisra’ĕl was brought very low because of Miḏyan, and the children of Yisra’ĕl cried out to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]."6:7, "And it came to be, when the children of Yisra’ĕl cried out to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]because of Miḏyan,”

They were literal human demon hybrids, that were seeking to make Israyl extinct.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 6:4, "The Nephilim (5303) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, the men of name."[/FONT]
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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#39
To be fair, this quote is attributed to Moses, not God. So one could argue that God did not necessarily ordain that command even with a super literal interpretation of the text.

The same cannot be said for the similar command in Samuel however, dealing with the Amalekites. That one remains a major head scratcher.
Are you sure it cannot be attributed to the LORD?

Later, the LORD told Moses, "Be sure to exact vengeance on behalf of the Israelis from the Midianites, after which you'll be taken home to your people." So Moses instructed the people, "Muster your men of war to attack the Midianites and deliver the LORD's vengeance against Midian. Send 1,000 men to war from every tribe throughout all of Israel."
(Num 31:1-4 ISV)
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#40
This will never be talked about in church and I don't like to get into it much because it is too deep for most, but it is Biblical fact.

The Midianites were allied with the Amalakites (who were decendants of nephillim and raphaim; humans mixed with fallen angels). They, the Midianites and Amalakites woiuld destroy the land of Israyl seeking to desroy their whole people;

Genesis 6:4, "The Nephilim (5303) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, the men of name."
I wonder then, why Moses married a Midianite woman.

Exo 2:16-2216 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.
17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.
18 And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day?
19 And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.
20 And he said unto his daughters, And where is he? why is it that ye have left the man? call him, that he may eat bread.
21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.
22 And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.