You Are A New Creation!
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But here's the problem with believing something you are not, you are really only deceiving yourself in your own mind. You cannot "imagine" yourself as being born again of the Holy Spirit, and if you are still living in ongoing sin then you have not truly been set free from sin have you? The proof is in them, in their own thoughts and actions.
If a person is truly born again of the Holy Spirit they will know it, no need to "imagine" yourself something you are not, that is just self justification without a true conversion by the Spirit of Christ.
Paul is comparing Israel and the Gentiles. Notice He says in verse 20 - you stand by faith.
Paul is simply stating that if the nation of Israel was cut off from the promises of God because of unbelief. - the same thing applies to those Gentiles that are in unbelief.
There are 2 mindsets = believe in Christ or unbelief in Christ. Everyone stands or falls in which ever camp they are in whether a Jew or a Gentile.
In verse 23 Paul says that if the nation of Israel do not continue in unbelief and receive Christ - then God will graft them in too.
Romans 11:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Paul is simply stating that if the nation of Israel was cut off from the promises of God because of unbelief. - the same thing applies to those Gentiles that are in unbelief.
There are 2 mindsets = believe in Christ or unbelief in Christ. Everyone stands or falls in which ever camp they are in whether a Jew or a Gentile.
In verse 23 Paul says that if the nation of Israel do not continue in unbelief and receive Christ - then God will graft them in too.
Romans 11:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Wrong on both counts.
Romans 6:6 & Gal 2:20 all say that the old man in Adam died when we came to Christ.
Scripture says that the Old Man died with Christ....the flesh is the left over habits and ways of the old man that was in Adam.
Which is why Paul says in Eph 4: 22 in reference to your former manner of living - you lay that aside - the old ways of thinking - be renewed in your mind to the truth.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
There is no doubt that the old man was crucified with Christ. It's the flesh that is still left over that wars against our spirit.
We say that Christ bears His fruit in our lives and it brings forth the fruits of righteousness that is in us because we are in Christ. This is different from trying to create or maintain our own righteousness.
Romans 10:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Romans 6:6 & Gal 2:20 all say that the old man in Adam died when we came to Christ.
Scripture says that the Old Man died with Christ....the flesh is the left over habits and ways of the old man that was in Adam.
Which is why Paul says in Eph 4: 22 in reference to your former manner of living - you lay that aside - the old ways of thinking - be renewed in your mind to the truth.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
There is no doubt that the old man was crucified with Christ. It's the flesh that is still left over that wars against our spirit.
We say that Christ bears His fruit in our lives and it brings forth the fruits of righteousness that is in us because we are in Christ. This is different from trying to create or maintain our own righteousness.
Romans 10:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
To me it comes down to identity - are we still the flesh or are we in Christ. We know the flesh is till with us and will be until we leave this world but it is not the real us. We are new creations in Christ with a new nature. I identify myself with who I am in Christ and as that is my true self and nature.
Perhaps it's the term "nature" that throws people off. It's interesting to look up the word nature in the NT. We see that Peter says we partake of the divine nature by His promises.
Perhaps it's the term "nature" that throws people off. It's interesting to look up the word nature in the NT. We see that Peter says we partake of the divine nature by His promises.
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Where in the world do you get these strange beliefs? Believers born of the Spirit are not children of God now?
Just by using the term "born' means being birthed. When you were born...were you someone's son?
The son does remain forever in the house. We are children of God.
John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".
If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.
Just by using the term "born' means being birthed. When you were born...were you someone's son?
The son does remain forever in the house. We are children of God.
John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".
If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.
L
this seems like an old chess board
the players are set up and each one knows what the other one is going to say
I liked the op...once upon a time this morning
this hyper grace stuff seems like a construct of some kind to put the op so far off track that you need a treasure map to find out what it was you were originally talking about
why would someone jump from 'we are a new creation in Christ', which is 100% biblical, and shift into hyper grace which is sounding more and more like some kind of space time jump into a dimension best reserved for gamers
what is going on?
the players are set up and each one knows what the other one is going to say
I liked the op...once upon a time this morning
this hyper grace stuff seems like a construct of some kind to put the op so far off track that you need a treasure map to find out what it was you were originally talking about
why would someone jump from 'we are a new creation in Christ', which is 100% biblical, and shift into hyper grace which is sounding more and more like some kind of space time jump into a dimension best reserved for gamers
what is going on?
L
Beautiful post Cee. Very much needed in the Christian community. Many of us believers have been taught we have a civil war going on inside us. We have been taught and re-taught this so much so that it's difficult to see the forest from the trees as they say. Just like the truth of grace, this message is not an easy one for many Christians to take. The flesh just can't fathom how it works. I'll be praying those who post here will get a revelation from the Holy Spirit of this awsome truth. It is life changing!
This is the essential essence of all the discussions. We are total beings, and as such take responsibility for our actions.
Any theology needs to explain human behaviour saved or unsaved. Once you start saying that is not me who did that that person is in denial of a reality of life. We choose.
Mystic notions introduce new identities which take ownership of good behaviour and deny bad behaviour.
Jesus simply says follow, and obey. But at its core mystics call this behaviour evil, trying to pretend to be like God working in their lives. The real problem is simple. Jesus is our Lord and this is what he said we should do.
I have yet to hear a good explanation why obedience fails. I think the argument is if it is your new spirit you will do the things anyway. The problem is all they also say is they do not do the things they should but that is because it is actually impossible, and the obedience is said only to prove you cannot.
But this is like saying I am defeated, but I have this secret ingredient which means I am no longer defeated except I still am, it just doesn't matter. But this is just a contradiction. Jesus did not die to bring us victory, just a free pass.
Now for saying this I am called a slanderer, etc.
So if this thread is saying we can walk in righteousness and purity, in reality not just imputed, I say amen.
But I do not think they are saying this, because it does not match what the group have said in the past and why they call us legalists and hypocrites, because they hold it is actually impossible. I find it very confusing this double speak.
Any theology needs to explain human behaviour saved or unsaved. Once you start saying that is not me who did that that person is in denial of a reality of life. We choose.
Mystic notions introduce new identities which take ownership of good behaviour and deny bad behaviour.
Jesus simply says follow, and obey. But at its core mystics call this behaviour evil, trying to pretend to be like God working in their lives. The real problem is simple. Jesus is our Lord and this is what he said we should do.
I have yet to hear a good explanation why obedience fails. I think the argument is if it is your new spirit you will do the things anyway. The problem is all they also say is they do not do the things they should but that is because it is actually impossible, and the obedience is said only to prove you cannot.
But this is like saying I am defeated, but I have this secret ingredient which means I am no longer defeated except I still am, it just doesn't matter. But this is just a contradiction. Jesus did not die to bring us victory, just a free pass.
Now for saying this I am called a slanderer, etc.
So if this thread is saying we can walk in righteousness and purity, in reality not just imputed, I say amen.
But I do not think they are saying this, because it does not match what the group have said in the past and why they call us legalists and hypocrites, because they hold it is actually impossible. I find it very confusing this double speak.
So, in real life you take your "interpretations" of some parables over the very clear words of God that we are children of God. Ok...you are allowed to believe what ever you want.
You could say that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the Book of Revelation too. ( There are birds talked about there in Revelation so maybe we could use that verse to show the belief in the 2 Ducks? )
Here are the clear scriptures that believers are in fact children of God by birth.....just like you are still a son to your mother - no matter what you say or do.
John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".
If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.