You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

[louis]

Morning Louis,

I am in agreement with everything that you said except for the following:



The key to understanding the chronology of the stages of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19

What is now = The letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church

What will take place later = The events which take place after "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

The word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Within those same chapters we do not see the word "hagios" translated as "saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward only the word hagios/saints is used but the word Ekklesia/church is never used again.

Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church when John hears that voice which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." The church is gathered here, which is why we don't see the word used any longer. It is not until Rev.19:6-8 where the church is alluded to as the bride where she is receiving her find linen and the wedding of the Lamb. The word Ekklesia/church however, does not appear again until Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

Morning Ahwahtukee,
I take the Lords Word in Revelation 4:1 concerning the hereafter as literal and not allusion.
To claim the Lords Word that the things shown John concern the hereafter as allusion makes the Lord an author of confusion, which He is not.

Regarding the seals, they have not and could not have yet taken place and that because 1). Jesus is the One opening them being apart of God's wrath and 2). the first seal, the rider on the white horse is representing the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place during that last seven years, which is why Jesus said if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive. The result of the 4th seal alone causes the fatalities of a fourth of the earth, which based on our present population would be over 1.7 billion.

You should be a little more careful in how you read Revelation 6:8. Death and Hell do not kill 1/4 of the earths populace, they have control over 1/4 of the earths populace to do the killing they intend. The first three horsemen each have control over their own respective 1/4 of the earths populaces.

Revelation 6:8 [FONT=&quot]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth[/FONT][FONT=&quot], to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.[/FONT]

Because believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, we then must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. In addition to this, Jesus said that all of these events would take place in the last generation.
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I agree that the faithful are not to incur the Lords wrath as indicated in Revelation 16, which will be directed towards the worshippers of the beast. The faithful will however, go through a travailing/tribulation period under the reign of the beast in Revelation 12 & 13 which precedes the Lords wrath on the worshippers of the beast.

 

[Inquistor]

You have GOT to be kidding! Who is Revelation 12:4 talking about, other than Mary (the mother of Jesus), and Jesus is the child being born, and the dragon is Satan, and one third of the stars are the fallen angels? How long ago did all those things happen ... or are they all in "the future?"

https://www.google.com/search?q=wom...hXqJsAKHaLjAHwQ9QEILzAD#imgrc=WJywCtP9s6OJyM:

 

[abcdef]

Chapters 1 through 3 apply to the church's of John's time, but also apply to the church's through today.
Chapters 4 through 22, however, apply to the hereafter following the first century AD.
As the book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD, and the destruction of Jerusalem was circa 70 AD, why would the Lord have to break open the sixth seal to see what would occur in the future, if it had already occurred in the past?
Events under the sixth seal occur after the first century AD, as the Word to John in Revelation 4:1 indicates.

The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7.

The last event that takes place before the scroll can be opened is the dest of Jeru, which is the scattering of the power of the holy people.

The scroll being unsealed, is showing and confirming that the scriptures were fulfilled and the scroll can be opened.

It was opened in 96 ad by Jesus.

The trumpets represent the cut off branches relationship with God, after 70 ad, and end with Jesus coming for the kingdom.

The 6th seal confirms this to be 70 ad Jerusalem by the passage in Lk 23:30, which could only be fulfilled by the women of Jerusalem, of that time.

 

[louis]

The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7.

The last event that takes place before the scroll can be opened is the dest of Jeru, which is the scattering of the power of the holy people.

The scroll being unsealed, is showing and confirming that the scriptures were fulfilled and the scroll can be opened.

It was opened in 96 ad by Jesus.

The trumpets represent the cut off branches relationship with God, after 70 ad, and end with Jesus coming for the kingdom.

The 6th seal confirms this to be 70 ad Jerusalem by the passage in Lk 23:30, which could only be fulfilled by the women of Jerusalem, of that time.

Hello abcdef,
The people in 70 AD Jerusalem were not the holy people.
The holy people (the believers in Christs Way), had already been exiled from Jerusalem several years earlier (Acts 8:1).
Who remained in 70 AD Jerusalem were the lawless unbelievers, upon whom the Lords full wrath fell (1 Thessalonians 2:16).

Acts 8:1 [FONT=&quot]And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad[/FONT][FONT=&quot] throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 2:16[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[louis]

The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7.

According to the angel in Daniel 12:4 and 9, the events described in Daniel 11:1-45 transpire during the end of the current age, at which time knowledge of these events will then be unsealed.
We are only now begining to comprehend what some of these events in Daniel chapter 11 represent.
Therefore, unless you can explain what all the events in chapter 11 represent, and how they transpired in the first century AD, these events along with their understanding remain to be seen and understood.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

[louis]

I believe the resurrection of those who sleep in the dust who shall awake to everlasting life in Daniel 12:2 represents they who shall precede the living to join the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Daniel 12:2 [FONT=&quot]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Thessalonians 4:[/FONT]16 [FONT=&quot]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

The seals are events that are required to happen before the scroll can be opened. Dan 12:4-7.

John! The seals are contained within the scroll. The opening of the scroll reveals the first seal, with the trumpets and bowl judgments to follow.

"Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

As you can see from the verses above, the scroll is sealed with the seven seals and the breaking of the seals is how the scroll is opened.

It was opened in 96 ad by Jesus

The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist, who has yet to be revealed and therefore the first seal could not have been opened in 96 AD, but is a future event which is approaching quickly.

The trumpets represent the cut off branches relationship with God, after 70 ad, and end with Jesus coming for the kingdom.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues unleashed by the two witnesses, is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the earth.

 

[abcdef]

Hello abcdef,
The people in 70 AD Jerusalem were not the holy people.
The holy people (the believers in Christs Way), had already been exiled from Jerusalem several years earlier (Acts 8:1).
Who remained in 70 AD Jerusalem were the lawless unbelievers, upon whom the Lords full wrath fell (1 Thessalonians 2:16).

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

1 Thessalonians 2:16Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

I agree with you completely on this.

Would you say that this was the scattering, or part of the scattering, mentioned in Dan 12:6-7?

 

[abcdef]

According to the angel in Daniel 12:4 and 9, the events described in Daniel 11:1-45 transpire during the end of the current age, at which time knowledge of these events will then be unsealed.

Brother louis,

The angel says that everything in the last vision will be completed by the time of the scattering of the power of the holy people.

If the people were scattered by 70ad roughly, then everything should be completed, including the 3 1/2t's by then.

We are only now begining to comprehend what some of these events in Daniel chapter 11 represent.
Therefore, unless you can explain what all the events in chapter 11 represent, and how they transpired in the first century AD, these events along with their understanding remain to be seen and understood.

Dan. 11:2, shows that this is the end of the Persian Empire (silver, Dan. 2), the beginning of the Empire of Greece (brass), and Antiochus Epiphanes reign over Israel.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The time of the end began on Pentecost, "last days" Heb 1:2.

The knowledge to be increased is spiritual knowledge of God and the kingdom, which Jesus taught us.

 

[louis]

I agree with you completely on this.

Would you say that this was the scattering, or part of the scattering, mentioned in Dan 12:6-7?

Daniel 12:6-7 refer to the events at the end of the age which are written about in Daniel 11.
As such the scattering of the power of the holy people for the time, times, and an half in Daniel 12:7 constitutes an end time event.
There are only two other areas with a simiar reference, which are in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14.
In Daniel 7:25 the saints are worn out by the 10 horned beasts mouth (aka the Antichrist) for a time, times, and dividing of time.
And in Revelation 12:14 a travailing woman is fed Gods Word for a time, times, and half a time, away from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:6 describes this time, times, and half a time as 1,260 days.
If we then take 1 time, and 2 times, and half a time, we have 3.5 times that constitute 1,260 days, thereby indicating each time as 360 days.
1,260 days/3.5 = 360 days (a shortened year).

Daniel 12:7 [FONT=&quot]And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]shall be for a time, times, and an half; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 7:[/FONT]25 [FONT=&quot]And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot] .

Revelation 12:[/FONT]14 [FONT=&quot]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 12:[/FONT]6 [FONT=&quot]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

I do not agree. Luke 17:30-37 concern the future trib.


Eze 5 concerns the trib.


Are you claiming Jesus was "revealed" in 70 AD?

I hope not..

There is nothing you, Plainword, or Locutus can say that will convince me that Preterism, or partial Preterism, is true.

It is by far the most bizarre doctrine.
The entire deal is future.
No brainer

 

[abcdef]

John! The seals are contained within the scroll. The opening of the scroll reveals the first seal, with the trumpets and bowl judgments to follow.

"Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

As you can see from the verses above, the scroll is sealed with the seven seals and the breaking of the seals is how the scroll is opened.

Brother Ahwatukee,

What would be you thoughts about the possibility, that the scroll held by Jesus in the Rev., is the same scroll that is seen in Dan. 12:4.

The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist, who has yet to be revealed and therefore the first seal could not have been opened in 96 AD, but is a future event which is approaching quickly.

We agree that the 1st seal is showing the Antichrist, and I have told you that I believe that it is Caesar.

If the Antichrist is revealed at the 1st seal, how can he come out of the abyss (thank you), at the 5th trumpet?

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues unleashed by the two witnesses, is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the earth.

Again I agree, but I believe that the plagues, etc., are against Israel and Rome, not the planet.

When it says the whole world, it usually means the whole world of Israel, in my opinion.

 

[heartofdavid]

There is a tribulation period for the faithful, which precedes and transpires during the reign of the beast (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; Revelation 12), and their are the seven vials of God's wrath poured out on the faithless (Revelation 16) for their having persecuted and killed the saints during the travailing/tribuation period (Revelation 17:6-7).

Revelation 17:6 [FONT=&quot]And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.[/FONT]

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the pretrib gathering.
Also a vivid picture of half staying behind.
Makes sense there will be saints present for the GT. The AC kills them all that refuse the mark. All belivers refusing the mark are beheaded.
The GT is Jacobs-Israels trouble. It involves the testing and harvest of the Jews.
The bride is noah, lot,and Ruth.
The bride is pretib. It is a no brainer. Jesus made it a no brainer

 

[louis]

Brother louis,

The angel says that everything in the last vision will be completed by the time of the scattering of the power of the holy people.

If the people were scattered by 70ad roughly, then everything should be completed, including the 3 1/2t's by then.




Dan. 11:2, shows that this is the end of the Persian Empire (silver, Dan. 2), the beginning of the Empire of Greece (brass), and Antiochus Epiphanes reign over Israel.




The time of the end began on Pentecost, "last days" Heb 1:2.

Brother abcdef,
We are going full circle. I understand your not wishing to dispose of your dogma regarding the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but as Daniel 12:4 and 9 clearly indicate knowledge of these events would be understood when they transpired, how then can you say that these events were understood to mean what they represented back in 70 AD?
Where and when was the resurrection indicated in Daniel 12:2?
The answer is that this resurrection comes at the end of the current age upon completion of all the events in Daniel 11.
Daniel chapter 11 events did not conclude in the first century AD.

The knowledge to be increased is spiritual knowledge of God and the kingdom, which Jesus taught us.

You are correct about the knowledge to be increased being spiritual knowledge of God and the kingdom, as the woman who is fed (Gods Word) in the wilderness for the time, times, and dividing of time, indicates.

 

[abcdef]

It is by far the most bizarre doctrine.
The entire deal is future.
No brainer

Any specific scriptures to go along with your statement?

 

[heartofdavid]

Once a believers mind is open to the truth., they see the pattern of the grace of God in Christ traced all through the way God is dealing and will deal with us His beloved sons and daughters. Of course we will not be "partaking" in God's wrath. The wrath and judgment of God was already taken 100% for us in Christ. We have nothing to fear from our Father because we are now in the Son. He has made provision for us in all areas.

This is not a weaklings fearful dreaded attempt and hope of escaping by the skin of our teeth the wrath to come as some accuse. But a profound outworking of faith in the love and watch care God has for us in His Son Jesus.

There is so much to our salvation that we have yet to learn and experience. That is why our salvation is called a so GREAT a salvation. Jesus has done more than we can even imagine. His gift is even unspeakable but we have to keep speaking about it and even though we can't tell it all we have to tell what we keep learning.

I will add two things.
The righteous are judged in this life in their daily walk. But even the carnal chrisians are saved. "....as through fire,they are saved but their works are burned up"
The backslider,and fence sitters,and wordly do enter the gt. They are the martyrs in rev 20.

 

[louis]

Again I agree, but I believe that the plagues, etc., are against Israel and Rome, not the planet.

When it says the whole world, it usually means the whole world of Israel, in my opinion.

After the land of Israel is destroyed by Hell and Death in (Isaiah 28:18-20), the Lord then moves on to the rest of the world with whom He has controversy against (Isaiah 28:21-22).
This is the same Death and Hell who appear under the fourth horseman in Revelation 6:8.
We can then surmise the 1/4 of the earth that Death and Hell have control over that will take many lives, including the daily sacrifice of Israeli's, represents the Middle East.


Isaiah 28:18 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Revelation 6:8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

the pretrib rapture folly has nuthin' to do with the kingdom

There are no post trib rapture verses.
Pretrib rules .
Hide and watch

 

[louis]

Mat 25 is a vivid picture of the pretrib gathering.
Also a vivid picture of half staying behind.
Makes sense there will be saints present for the GT. The AC kills them all that refuse the mark. All belivers refusing the mark are beheaded.
The GT is Jacobs-Israels trouble. It involves the testing and harvest of the Jews.
The bride is noah, lot,and Ruth.
The bride is pretib. It is a no brainer. Jesus made it a no brainer

I understand the bride who makes herself ready in Matthew 25 the same as they who make themselves ready and not go around naked in Revelation 16:15 which represents Armageddon (Revelation 16:16).
And as the seven vials of Gods wrath is being poured out on the faithless in Revelation 16, the Lord will then have previously gathered His people to the Middle East (Revelation 16:12) to keep them from His wrath poured out on the rest of the world.

Revelation 16:15 [FONT=&quot]Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

The one taken is a slave, the one left behind is dead.



Yes, but the trib begins when Israel rejects the kingdom and is broken off. and ends when the natural branches are restored to military control of Jerusalem, Lk 21:20-24.



Look, it was revealed By the dest of Jeru that Jesus is God, because only God could do that.

But it wasn't a resurrection coming as the preterists claim.

Jesus let himself be shown many times after His resurrection.

But they weren't resurrection comings.

There are only 2 resurrections, Jesus and those at His coming 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24. Then it is the end.

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation has not happened yet, that is where Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom.





Then you shouldn't be afraid to talk about it, if you are so sure.

Only what the truth is, is what matters, not who says it.

If you get into the details, pre-trib falls apart. The beast is Rome.

Both pre-trib and preterists have something in common,

They both deny that the Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist.

(Please don't associate me with the Locust, I don't play troll games like him.)

No,the one taken is mat 25, the wise virgin.
All those taken are in peacetime setting.

As far as Rome, i. Can go along with that being the beast and babylon.
It does zero to the pretrib doctrine. Zero