Your salvation could be at risk
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It appears to me all the op is saying is that some take tithing to such an extreme that one's salvation is dependent on it. Then offers some passages as refutation. Not sure why some have attempted to make him appear "dumb" for his op. 
Ok you are obviously a gross 10% man.
I am not. I pay my taxes first. Which help towards welfare for those in need.
I then give to God.
Be very very careful when insisting that believers give 10% gross or at the very minimum they must tithe.
I went to an elder as I had problems with debt.
His response was give 10% gross under a deed of covnenat for 3 years.
God will meet your needs and help with your debts.
After 3 years I had double the debt.
I stopped tithing.
I actually came to the conclusion that me tithing and not paying my debts was wrong.
I felt it was more honouring to God to meet my debts.
I even contacted debtors before that 3 year period who had no idea that I had moved, even a dentist.
In USD at the time it was about 90k, GBP 60k.
I know God honoured that because as I started to do that things started to happen.
Little things like unexpected gifts, no of money but things I liked but wouldn’t buy. My favourite aftershave with would cost about 100 bucks.
Then a big one. One of my debts was about £40k. I came to an agreement with them to pay a certain amount a month.
Based on this amount it would have taken about 299 years to pay it off.
Not long after we started they then started asking me to pay more, more than I could afford.
In the he I telephoned them. I felt prompted to do so.
I asked the question what would they accept as a lumpy sum payment to clear the debt. If it was going to lower then 40k and lower interest then if I could get it from somewhere else at least that would be better.
They said “We will accept 4k. Yes 4K.
10% of what I owed them.
Work lent me the money and then wrote it off some months later.
Overall it took about 16 years before I became debt free.
What I did do though is that as the decreased I had a bit more money, some of it I gave to to church or others and the rest towards my debts.
I get very wary of people who say you must tithe (what ever amount) regardless of circumstances.
On a side note I would ask this question.
I am an accountant, I have and still do help many people out by doing their accounts. Mainly people in the church who can’t afford the fees, I have helped many people with their finances.
On average I could earn about £10k a year. The most I have ever earned is £1k.
Is that not a tithe?
I am not. I pay my taxes first. Which help towards welfare for those in need.
I then give to God.
Be very very careful when insisting that believers give 10% gross or at the very minimum they must tithe.
I went to an elder as I had problems with debt.
His response was give 10% gross under a deed of covnenat for 3 years.
God will meet your needs and help with your debts.
After 3 years I had double the debt.
I stopped tithing.
I actually came to the conclusion that me tithing and not paying my debts was wrong.
I felt it was more honouring to God to meet my debts.
I even contacted debtors before that 3 year period who had no idea that I had moved, even a dentist.
In USD at the time it was about 90k, GBP 60k.
I know God honoured that because as I started to do that things started to happen.
Little things like unexpected gifts, no of money but things I liked but wouldn’t buy. My favourite aftershave with would cost about 100 bucks.
Then a big one. One of my debts was about £40k. I came to an agreement with them to pay a certain amount a month.
Based on this amount it would have taken about 299 years to pay it off.
Not long after we started they then started asking me to pay more, more than I could afford.
In the he I telephoned them. I felt prompted to do so.
I asked the question what would they accept as a lumpy sum payment to clear the debt. If it was going to lower then 40k and lower interest then if I could get it from somewhere else at least that would be better.
They said “We will accept 4k. Yes 4K.
10% of what I owed them.
Work lent me the money and then wrote it off some months later.
Overall it took about 16 years before I became debt free.
What I did do though is that as the decreased I had a bit more money, some of it I gave to to church or others and the rest towards my debts.
I get very wary of people who say you must tithe (what ever amount) regardless of circumstances.
On a side note I would ask this question.
I am an accountant, I have and still do help many people out by doing their accounts. Mainly people in the church who can’t afford the fees, I have helped many people with their finances.
On average I could earn about £10k a year. The most I have ever earned is £1k.
Is that not a tithe?
NT Christians do not give because they must they give because they love the Lord. NT Christians do not tithe to the church they give as unto the Lord Who purchased them from the slave market of sin.
For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]
The only place that we could possibly disagree is that most of the Christians that I know give tithes because the pastor teaches it from the Old Testament.
For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]
The only place that we could possibly disagree is that most of the Christians that I know give tithes because the pastor teaches it from the Old Testament.
As an elder and deacon in the Reformed Church (RCA) and the Presbyterian Church (PCA) for over 30 years all I can say about this issue of giving is it's confusing. The New Testament is not very clear on this issue. Implications are taken by both sides. In the end it is up to each of us to decide what is right.
Mike I understand that you are hurt, that pastor is the perfect example that many so called pastors are not called by the Lord to be pastors. They are A personalities that climbed the church ladder to pastorhood. This is why I do not attend a Church that has a head, senior, lead or the buck stops here pastor, I go to a Church that has a plurality of elders that have teaching eleders, administrative pastors and so on, no one guy calling the shots the final word. They all have big heads and seem to forget what Jesus said about one guy leading in Matthew 20:25-28
“But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Those senior pastors do not want to serve they want to be served. Any time a pastor talks with someone and agrees wioth them them the following serves preach against what that person believes is a straight jerk and causes me to wonder if they have the fruit of the Spirit. All of the Churches I have visited that have a plurality of elder that oversee the body of Christ do not take offerings, they have agape boxes that believers can place their offering in.
I see you have made a list to say what we should believe, my question is are you born again, did I miss that part?
“But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Those senior pastors do not want to serve they want to be served. Any time a pastor talks with someone and agrees wioth them them the following serves preach against what that person believes is a straight jerk and causes me to wonder if they have the fruit of the Spirit. All of the Churches I have visited that have a plurality of elder that oversee the body of Christ do not take offerings, they have agape boxes that believers can place their offering in.
I see you have made a list to say what we should believe, my question is are you born again, did I miss that part?
It is painful to admit but there are churches where the gospel message is never preached. Several years ago I talked to a man that for the first time heard the gospel message in my church. He had been attending a church of a well known denomination. He was shocked to hear what was never taught in his church.
The different denominations today have very liberal wings like this and conservative wings where the gospel is preached. Liberal and conservative in this respect means how the church views the Bible. Very liberal ones view the Bible as a series of homilies but not anything to worry about. Conservatives believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and needs to be taken seriously.
There is a book by Gary North detailing how a mainline denomination was taken over by non Christians. It's title is Crossed Fingers. It's sub title tells which major denomination it discusses. The non Christians who took it over went to seminary and took oaths swearing adherence to the Bible accounts of Jesus and the reason for his sacrifice on the cross. This is why the title. They deliberately lied. This denomination in 1932 defrocked the last believing minister who controlled any money in the denomination.
It is sad but many mainline denominations have been taken over this way. The test is to go to a church in a denomination for a month and listen for references to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If none they are part of the problem. Each denomination has churches seperated from it and joined together as Bible believing churches in a conservative denomination with the name relating to the mainline one that mostly has churches rejecting the Bible. There is a group of denominations known as the 7 sisters. Each mainline one has seperate conservative wings while the mainline one rejects the Bible. The structure of the Catholic and Orthodox structures prevent this from happening to them. Both have a rigid top down control.
The different denominations today have very liberal wings like this and conservative wings where the gospel is preached. Liberal and conservative in this respect means how the church views the Bible. Very liberal ones view the Bible as a series of homilies but not anything to worry about. Conservatives believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and needs to be taken seriously.
There is a book by Gary North detailing how a mainline denomination was taken over by non Christians. It's title is Crossed Fingers. It's sub title tells which major denomination it discusses. The non Christians who took it over went to seminary and took oaths swearing adherence to the Bible accounts of Jesus and the reason for his sacrifice on the cross. This is why the title. They deliberately lied. This denomination in 1932 defrocked the last believing minister who controlled any money in the denomination.
It is sad but many mainline denominations have been taken over this way. The test is to go to a church in a denomination for a month and listen for references to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If none they are part of the problem. Each denomination has churches seperated from it and joined together as Bible believing churches in a conservative denomination with the name relating to the mainline one that mostly has churches rejecting the Bible. There is a group of denominations known as the 7 sisters. Each mainline one has seperate conservative wings while the mainline one rejects the Bible. The structure of the Catholic and Orthodox structures prevent this from happening to them. Both have a rigid top down control.
That all depends on what paying tithes does to the way you think of yourself. If you feel more righteous than people that don't pay their tithes, then you're more likely to be in trouble.
Galations5:4
You people who are trying to be made righteous by the Law have been estranged from Christ.
Galations 2:21 I don't ignore the grace of God, because if we become righteous through the Law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galations5:4
You people who are trying to be made righteous by the Law have been estranged from Christ.
Galations 2:21 I don't ignore the grace of God, because if we become righteous through the Law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Am my born again? That's a question I just can't answer. I don't lie, cheat, kill, steal, etc. but I know that I'm not perfect and that I'm guilty of sins. I must be guilty of believing things that are not true. I'm a very scientific person that needs proof but I do know that being saved is by faith. I think I'm saved but I don't have anything to prove it with
Your words are "
Rather than refuting the more common assertion that salvation is dependent on tithing, the central thought, here, seems to be that salvation is dependent on refraining from it."
Are you really saying that most Christians believe salvation is dependent on tithing???
No tithe--No salvation??
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Many churches teach that Christians, under the New Covenant, are commanded to give a minimum of 10% of our income to our church. Others teach that preachers of these churches are turning the 10% tithe from the Old Testament for Israel into a monetary, legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. I even once heard a Pastor make a challenge to his congregation to give 10% of their income for 90 days and if God does not bless them then he will give them their money back.
In 2 Corinthians 9:5-7 we read: Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
I don't see a "specific percentage" given anywhere for Christians to give "under the New Covenant," but I certainly believe in giving and not just to our church. I also believe that everything we own belongs to God and we cannot out give God.
In 2 Corinthians 9:5-7 we read: Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
I don't see a "specific percentage" given anywhere for Christians to give "under the New Covenant," but I certainly believe in giving and not just to our church. I also believe that everything we own belongs to God and we cannot out give God.
Most "Christians" are correct, in believing onced saved always saved. Confused "Christians", however, equate Salvation, alongsides Election! It's like salvation gets one into the heavenly stadium, while election, gets one a seat up closer to the front.
I have to agree with the OP concerning Beggars, though!