Can You Speak in Tongues?

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#61
There are three occasions of people speaking in tongues in Acts. But someone can try to 'prove' lots of things using your same line of reasoning.

Would you agree with these statements:
"Every time someone got saved in the book of Acts, Jews were present. So no one can get saved without a Jew present."
"Every time someone got baptized in the book of Acts, Jews performed the baptism. So no one can be baptized properly without a Jew doing it."

The problem with these statements is that the Bible doesn't teach that only Jews can do these things, and the theory doesn't fit the didactic, doctrinal teaching of the New Testament on the issue. The only person who would believe such things is someone who has a pre-existing belief about how Jews have to do the spiritual things in the church, and wants to read it into the New Testament.

You are doing the same thing with speaking in tongues. You want it to be a sign for the Jews only.

You'll notice that Paul said that tongues is a sign not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. Yet don't you have tongues functioning as a sign to believing Jews in your interpretations of Acts 10 and 19?

You'll also notice chapter 19 doesn't say anything about tongues serving as a sign to the Jews present that those who spoke in tongues were filled with the Holy Spirit. You are eisegeting into the passage.

I Corinthians 12 shows that the audience he is addressing were former idolators. Most likely they were pagans, but 'divers tongues' is among the gifts that these saints can receive.

Btw, there are still Jews today. I've gone to church with believing Jews before and one pastor at a church I went to had a Jewish mother.
Acts 10:47 Peter clearly declares to those present that since the Gentiles who got saved evidenced the same tongues that the Jews evidenced at Pentecost there was no reason to deny them water baptism. Acts tells us plainly what's going on with tongues among the Gentiles.
I'm also concerned with some cessationists readiness to accuse since Jesus warned those who called the Holy Spirit an unclean spirit by attributing His works to unclean spirits that speaking against the Holy Spirit was a sin for which there was no forgiveness in this age or in the age to come.
It is not a matter to be taken lightly. But if as I contend that the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge ended in 1 Cor 13:8 and the Holy Spirit does not operate contrary to the word of God then we have a situation. There is grave concern when we examine the modern Pentecostal church. Much of what it engages in is highly questionable from a biblical perspective. Now if the Holy Spirit is not going to operate outside of Gods word then to attribute to the Holy Spirit the activity of familiar spirits is the same thing that you threaten me with is it not?

I hope I am wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Tintin

Guest
#62
We have to examine the fruit of the spiritual gift. If it brings someone closer to the one true God and helps them to understand more of who He is and how He operates in their life and the lives of those around Him, how can the gifts be from the Enemy (who wants to steal, kill and destroy and draw people away from God, not to Him?)
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#63
So now they are a sign gift? First of all they were just a sign. Now they are a sign gift? You're not making this up as you go along are you? Your first paragraph seems to be agreeing with me now though.

Roger what is it that you're actually trying to say about speaking in tongues today?

I don't want to get all serious with you about it. I've told you I have the gift of tongues and that I speak in tongues.

If you don't want to believe that, that is completely up to you friend. :)

To be honest, it seems like you are acting bitter towards me and trying to say that I shouldn't speak in tongues and that nobody else should anymore purely because you don't or can't (even though you can).

Is that fair to say? Tell me if I'm being off here in anyway, its never my intention to deliberately offend anyone. Well, not strangers anyway. :)
I'd be much more interested in hearing your testimony of how you got saved. Discussing tongues with folks who are convinced they have the gift is always a less than profitable endeavor. It's always a km wide and less than a mm deep. And I want to remain kind.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#64
We have to examine the fruit of the spiritual gift. If it brings someone closer to the one true God and helps them to understand more of who He is and how He operates in their life and the lives of those around Him, how can the gifts be from the Enemy (who wants to steal, kill and destroy and draw people away from God, not to Him?)
We of course examine them through the word of God and not our feelings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Tintin

Guest
#65
We of course examine them through the word of God and not our feelings.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
True, and yet we shouldn't discourage feelings entirely, we just shouldn't rely on them. After all, we are in relationship with the one true God and relationships involve experiences.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#66
But if as I contend that the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge ended in 1 Cor 13:8...
Quite simply Roger, you are wrong!

You take one Scripture and rip it out of context (the canon of Scripture is NOT even mentioned in 1Cor 13) and present it as truth!

I hesitate to say this Roger, but stop lying to yourself and others in relation to the (baptism and) gifts of the Holy Spirit which Acts 2v16-21,38,39 clearly teaches are available to the Church (the Body of Christ) throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up to the Second Coming of Christ!

FOR THE CAUSE OF TRUTH!

Yahweh Shalom
 
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Tintin

Guest
#67
The canon was officially closed around 300AD, wasn't it? And yet, the whole New Testament had been written prior to 70AD (before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple there).
 
Feb 19, 2015
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#68
If we feel like singing rock music in an unknown tongue, and we feel like Jesus is being glorified, it's all good, right?
 
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Rudimental

Guest
#69
I have never spoken in tongues and i have never heard a genuine instance of it either. What i did hear was some wonderful beautiful people desperate to be closer to God, forcing something that was not real, I just feel sad for them, it is such a shame to be subjected to that kind of falsehood when there is so much blessing and fulfillment that God has to offer people without speaking in tongues.
Yeah. I hear that. I feel God's like, look you don't have to do it. I'm honored when you do though because you are doing it for me. For our relationship. It's okay if you don't though. You don't have to do it if you don't understand it. I wont love you any less if you don't and it wont effect my eternal plan that I have for you. All I want from you is to recognize me and give me honor (love, respect, praise and worship). Which is only going to be productive for your soul anyway.

I feel sad for those people (well not sad, it just tickles me really) that go into some trance like state at the alter of a church and where the pastor zaps them on the head and they fall over writhing and wriggling around on the floor in the dust. I don't recall Jesus ever doing that to anyone and I don't think He would want them to be in that state either. That is complete falsity imho but that is just what some people are like. To quote one of the most famous scriptures.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

That's not to say these people don't have "sound minds". Just not enough knowledge. But they are so very needy and gullible and wanting to please their church leaders that they act out this kind of fake takeover as though the Holy Spirit is causing them to be insane for a short time. Does the Holy Spirit do that to people? Is the Holy Spirit God? And is God not love? Therefore;

[SUP]1 Corinthians 13:4-8 4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

And oddly enough, the next chapter is the one that Roger is quoting as the reason why tongues or the gift of speaking in tongues is no longer required and shouldn't be done and doesn't mean anything when you do. At least, thats what I think he is sort of saying.


[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

This is true, but I don't think this is talking about actually speaking in tongues and the gift of tongues and interpretation.

You know what, it still pleases God that we get it wrong if we are trying to please Him.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

From the same book. :)

Even when we get it wrong, and quite often in our foolishness we do, even when we think we have it right. As long as our intentions are good and according to His will, it still pleases Him. He is not angry with us if we get it wrong. His anger is saved up for the day of judgment for those that don't believe.

So yes there are indeed people that can act out like some false trance like state and go a bit not normal. And the Holy Spirit really can move in you at times of worship, prayer, praise and singing. Oh I have such happy memories of singing for God as a child. But speaking in tongues is a very real gift and not to be confused with those that are pretending for their own strange reasons and not of Gods.

That said, God does move in very mysterious ways.

Thanks for chiming in and pleasure to meet you I'm sure. :)

God bless.

Rudi.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#70
If we feel like singing rock music in an unknown tongue, and we feel like Jesus is being glorified, it's all good, right?
If we feel like singing rock music in an unknown tongue and Jesus is being glorified, it's all good, right?

Yes. Yes, it is.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#71
Quite simply Roger, you are wrong!

You take one Scripture and rip it out of context (the canon of Scripture is NOT even mentioned in 1Cor 13) and present it as truth!

I hesitate to say this Roger, but stop lying to yourself and others in relation to the (baptism and) gifts of the Holy Spirit which Acts 2v16-21,38,39 clearly teaches are available to the Church (the Body of Christ) throughout the whole of the age of Grace, right up to the Second Coming of Christ!

FOR THE CAUSE OF TRUTH!

Yahweh Shalom
Ooooh feel the love. You are not hesitant to say it you are eager to say it because you must attack me since you cannot reason from the scriptures to make your case for tongues.

God can perform miracles but God is not obligated to perform miracles. God has given His word the bible and God has given His Holy Spirit to minister the word of God to us. Herein is His authority established and nothing can cause it to be moved.

You argue from what you want not what God has declared.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#72
If we feel like singing rock music in an unknown tongue and Jesus is being glorified, it's all good, right?

Yes. Yes, it is.
Is God glorified in worldly music? Is it good to have the culture influence the church? We are to disciple the world not have the world disciple us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#73
Is God glorified in worldly music? Is it good to have the culture influence the church? We are to disciple the world not have the world disciple us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger


Here is the question that should be asked, rather in rock, rap, gospel, country, or pop.
If the wording is all about glorifying God and edifying others what is the issue. There is nothing in the bible that says the style of music is unacceptable. It would be the lyric's that go with that would make it either Godly or ungodly music.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#74
Acts 10:47 Peter clearly declares to those present that since the Gentiles who got saved evidenced the same tongues that the Jews evidenced at Pentecost there was no reason to deny them water baptism. Acts tells us plainly what's going on with tongues among the Gentiles.
Yet one of your doctrinal explanations to do away with speaking in tongues has tongues serving as a sign to believers, when Paul says they are a sign not to them that believe, but to them that believe not. Maybe your doctrinal reason isn't all that weighty in this case.

It is not a matter to be taken lightly. But if as I contend that the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge ended in 1 Cor 13:8 and the Holy Spirit does not operate contrary to the word of God then we have a situation.
A lot of cessationist theologians and Bible teachers-- those who think certain gifts have already ceased-- don't believe I Corinthians 13 teaches your position. John Calvin called the idea that the perfect has come before death or the end of the age 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on the translation of his commentary on the chapter.

Take a look at the internal evidence for what Paul is talking about. Probably, before Paul actually wrote the epistle, he had an idea of what he was going to write. He probably knew what the Spirit had put on his heart, at least part of it. He had heard those who'd come from the household of Chloe. He probably knew much of what God wanted him to write. So he gets to chapter 1, and he writes a bit about the Corinthians utterance and knowledge. And he writes I Corinthians 1:7,

"So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul did not envision a time between the writing of His epistle and the coming of Christ when the Corinthians would come behind in any spiritual gift. And certainly he would include the 'utterance' gifts in that statement, the very gifts he would address in great detail in the passage.

There is nothing in I Corinthians 13 to indicate that Paul has the completion of scripture or St. John dying when he writes about the coming of the perfect. But if we compare the topics he addresses to the topics he addresses in the next two chapters, we find something interesting.

Chapter 13 discusses: 1. tongues 2. prophecy. 3. The coming of the perfect.
Chapters 14-15 discuss: 1. tongues 2. prophecy. 3. The state of the believer in the resurrection at the second coming.

We've got to look at the actual themes in the epistle. I think you don't want these spiritual gifts to be active today. Maybe you've had a bad experience, or just don't think that something your church doesn't have or doesn't do should be around today. I don't know why. But I don't see any reason from the text to go with your interpretation.

Something a lot of Dispensationalists don't realize is that if there are two witnesses still yet to come, they will prophesy and do miracles like shutting up the heavens. So prophecy and miracles can't cease until these two witnesses complete these ministries of theirs. Some Dispensationalists say that these gifts ceased for the church age and restart after the rapture. But that's based on their theories, not scripture. There is no reason to say these gifts ceased only to restart. And if these gifts somehow challenge the canon, then it doesn't make sense that they would continue during the Tribulation period either.

The fact that even under a preterist reading, the two witnesses who prophesy have to come after the last 'amen' in revelation is important to note.

As far as questionable practices of Pentecostals go, I'm sure you could find some. But there are 200 million plus Pentecostals and multitudes who have come to Christ through the movement since it began. What about the work of the Spirit in winning these souls to Christ? And of course there are multitudes of people who can testify to having come to Christ after seeing supernatural healings or experiencing them themselves.

I haven't read it yet, but Keener wrote a book, Miracles, fairly recently. Originally, it started as a footnote to argue against liberals who said that the miracles of Christ were embellishments added to the text later. He was arguing that recent and contemporary evidence shows that people testify to miracles in their own current time. It turned into a 1200 page book.

Numerous people can testify to prophecies that encouraged them in areas the one doing the prophesying couldn't know about. I've gotten prophecies encouraging me to minister. I can't figure out why the Devil would give people prophecies encouraging them to evangelize, reach out to international students, etc. A lot of people experience prophecies that encourage them in their call to ministry. That's a fairly commonly occurring type of prophesying. A lot of prophesying that happens of this sort is the sort of thing that the person doing the prophesying couldn't know. And there cases where I went one place and someone prophesied something to me to encourage me, and I went somewhere else to a group where the people there aren't the same as at the other place, and I get the same prophecy.

The real doctrinal issues are whether the Bible teaches that God only speaks through the Bible, and whether I Corinthians 12-14 gifts continue until this day. I Corinthians 1:7 indicates that they continue until the return of Christ. And the Bible nowhere teaches that God only communicates through the Bible. There is ample evidence that He communicates and reveals Himself apart from scripture (e.g. through creation in Romans 1, the acts of Jesus that couldn't fit all the books in world in John, the thunder clap in Revelation that John wasn't able to write down, the things that the man caught up into the third heaven wasn't allowed to say in II Corinthians, and the numerous references to genuine prophets in the Old and New Testaments whose prophecies were not written in the Bible.)

There is grave concern when we examine the modern Pentecostal church. Much of what it engages in is highly questionable from a biblical perspective.
Much of what it engages in is also very clearly Biblical. I suppose the Corinthians may have engaged in some highly questionable activities from a Biblical perspective. That didn't mean that God didn't give spiritual gifts, even to them.

Now if the Holy Spirit is not going to operate outside of Gods word then to attribute to the Holy Spirit the activity of familiar spirits is the same thing that you threaten me with is it not?
Calling an evil spirit the Holy Spirit might qualify as well, but it isn't the example Jesus addressed of the unpardonable sin. We do need to be careful with how we speak about the Spirit and about judging spiritual things.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#75
I knew a man quite well who was an evangelist. One day he was preaching at a meeting, and suddenly, he spoke 4 words in an unknown tongue. Just FOUR, mind you! At the end of the meeting, a man came up with a napkin, with the 4 words written down. He asked my friend how he knew Armenian, which of course my friend did not know.
I knew a missionary who used to work with American Indians. He visited a different tribe to put on a crusade. There were some youths with a plan to do some mischief. I can't remember it was cutting tent cords or firecrackers under the stage. Something like that. The preacher had an urge to speak in tongues. He did. After the service, they wanted to know how he spoke their language. He had rebuked these young men that he didn't even know about for their plan to disrupt the service. Apparently, they didn't do it.

The words on the napkin were "Jesus Christ is Lord." My friend led the man to the Lord, and I think 27 members of his household. My friend kept the napkin, and I even saw it.

BUT, that is what tongues are supposed to do! Witness to people in their own tongue, like Acts 2.
In Acts, speaking in tongues drew the attention of the speakers of those different languages. But Peter preached the gospel to them, apparently in some language they could all understand and interact in (Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic probably.) He didn't evangelize them in tongues. I'm not saying tongues couldn't be used to actually preach the Gospel if God so chose, but we don't have any clear example of it in scripture.

In I Corinthians 14, Paul writes of tongues spoken in church, 'no man understandeth him' and encourage interpretation of tongues. The I Corinthians usage isn't wrong. God doesn't always put people there who understand the message.

I would challenge every person here who spends more time speaking in tongues than reading the Bible, intercessory prayer and witnessing to really evaluate who you are edifying - yourself or God?
Is prayer and Bible study really supposed to edify God rather than us?

I take the approach that we shouldn't discourage someone from doing a good thing. I see that in I Corinthians. Paul is careful not to squash the Corinthian's enthusiasm for spiritual gifts or tongues. But he encourages interpretation and prophesying.

I won't say any more, but I do believe if God can use Balaam's donkey, he can use tongues. But most of what goes on today is just confusion and may even be demonic, in some cases.
I'm not saying there can't be fake gifts. But I don't see any warning of this in all Paul's writings on the subject. From scripture, I don't get the impression that we are supposed to worry that our gifts may be fake with the kind of paranoia some people have about these gifts. In I Corinthians 12, we see that Paul was talking about spiritual gifts to former pagans. They had come from a demonic religion, but Paul doesn't say "watch out, you might speak in tongues by a demon. " He doesn't even warn them that tongues could be fake babbling or anything like that.

Christians who approach this issue should do so with faith and confidence that God gives good things to them who ask Him.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#76
I love your humor. I was raised in a Southern baptist church, my dad being the pastor. My grandparents were Holiness, meaning they jumped on pews, shouted and spoke in tongues, along with using all the other spiritual gifts. Most denominations are divided sharply over the spiritual gifts and if they allow them in a worship service or not. You are extra blessed. I have used and been part of most of the gifts. but only once..in a very small way with tongues. My pastor was so emphatic that I speak in tongues, he layed his hand on me and was shaking. I very slowly kinda melted onto the floor and began to slur a little and utter something I could not understand myself. However, I have had discernment to the point that now I beleive that GOD is leading me to a Deliverance ministry. Seems like I'm more into casting out demons than edifying myself...lol
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#77
Tongues are an amazing gift from the Holy Spirit, sometimes I wonder how people get by without it. The intercession that takes place, the edification, ugh..I could go on and on..Praise God for this wonderful gift.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#78
Is God glorified in worldly music? Is it good to have the culture influence the church? We are to disciple the world not have the world disciple us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The Enemy can't create anything. Not even genres of music that don't meet your approval. I don't like country and techno music and much classic music, but that doesn't mean they're of Satan and his ilk.
 
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dalconn

Guest
#79
I have that utterance that comes up from my toes when it happens. I cant turn it on or off but I assure you its the Holy Spirit bubbling up from my inner parts. Im so convinced about this that I cant be talked out of it. I dont believe most charismatic or penacostal churches understand or use the gifts biblically
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#80
The Enemy can't create anything. Not even genres of music that don't meet your approval. I don't like country and techno music and much classic music, but that doesn't mean they're of Satan and his ilk.
I remember watching documentaries on the emergence of jazz. Many people labelled it as devil music, interesting hindsight :)