question about submission

[SoulWeaver]

Okay Rachel thanks for calling me and others here stupid. Arrogant as usual... I contained myself for a good while - you behave this way and to you everyone else is stupid, only you are smart and learned. Seriously you could check your attitude. I said it was my thoughts and observation, not the Bible.

And I have to comment on this one, the woman did not have to marry her rapist. He had to marry her. Which is, to pay for all her sustenance as long as she lives, and she probably did not even have to see him ever again. Or is God evil to command something like this? David has also "received Saul's wives into his bosom" but there's one verse, cant dig it out right now but I looked into this before, saying he never had anything to do with them, just sustained them as widows.

 

[Rachel20]

Okay Rachel thanks for calling me and others here stupid. Arrogant as usual... I contained myself for a good while - you behave this way and to you everyone else is stupid, only you are smart and learned. Seriously you could check your attitude. I said it was my thoughts and observation, not the Bible.

And I have to comment on this one, the woman did not have to marry her rapist. He had to marry her. Which is, to pay for all her sustenance as long as she lives, and she probably did not even have to see him ever again. Or is God evil to command something like this? David has also "received Saul's wives into his bosom" but there's one verse, cant dig it out right now but I looked into this before, saying he never had anything to do with them, just sustained them as widows.

I didn't call anyone stupid but if you feel that way when I post, then I can't help it.


Your perception is in your control

 

[SoulWeaver]

I didn't call anyone stupid but if you feel that way when I post, then I can't help it.

Your perception is in your control

Sorry, I wont go down to that level of discussion and yes you should seriously check your attitude when you talk with your brothers and sisters. I've seen you behave this way before on forums and it's not the fruit of the Spirit at all.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Rachel, I think you're reading into what people are writing here.
A Christian marriage is not a Muslim marriage. I'm not feeling burdened at all to expound on my equality because I am treated equally. Maybe it's that you feel that need to speak about that because of the situation in your country/society (which indeed is terrible for women).

 

[presidente]

I think another part of it is there isn't much dignity in being a woman. Women who are stay-at-home moms can be seen as lazy or weak. The whole thing about women always in the kitchen is treated like an inferior position. Does that make sense?

I believe its the feminist movement who makes out women who stay at home to be lazy and weak. There are feminists who will say it's a woman's choice, but it seems like it's feminist women who look down on women who stay at home. The individual husband who wants his wife to work may not like his own wife staying at home. But some husbands like that. But I've never heard of a man complain that another man's wife who stayed at home was lazy or weak or should be pursuing a career.

Again, why is it that there isn't considered to be much dignity in being a woman? I think part of that is that Feminism has led women to believe that they get their sense of accomplishment in the workplace. Being a wife, a mother, and raising children is held in lower regard than it used to be. In the past, women held those things in higher regard and found a sense of accomplishment in the family. Being a father isn't held in as high regard as it used to be either, IMO.

I disagree with the idea that feminism doesn't relate to marriage. There were feminist writings in the 60's that argued that being a wife was a form of prostitution. The concepts of the 'patriarchy' in Feminist thought extends to the home as well. Divorce rates have gone up as feminism took off as a force in our society, with the majority of no-fault divorces being filed by women. That's not only because of Feminism, but I believe it is a factor.

I heard a preacher say once that our success in life or ministry was determined by how obedient we are to God. We are only here a short time on the earth. Our life is like a vapor. Believers will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ. If God let someone be born a slave, he should be faithful to the Lord as a slave, and if he has the opportunity to be free, take it. If someone is born into a place in life where he is going to be some kind of ruler, he should be faithful to the Lord in that. If one is born a man, he should be faithful as a man. If one is born as a woman, she should be faithful as a woman. Being upset that you weren't born into another role in life isn't going to accomplish much. We should be obedient and faithful to the Lord where we are, be thankful for how he has made us and for what He has given us. Our faithfulness in this life prepares us for the position He will put us in for eternity, which lasts much longer. I believe a faithful slave in this life could be in a much higher position in the age to come than a not-so-faithful king in this life.

 

[presidente]

I find it interesting that all the advantages to being a woman listed here revolve around marrying a man and bearing children.

What is really different and unique about women besides those things? Should I write about being 'more emotional' or having closer relationships with other women? Maybe other women could right those or other things. All I know about being a woman is second hand information.

 

[presidente]

All this talk of how the world was better in the Israelite times is really stupid.
If you don’t agree…

Maybe I missed a post. Who said that? People quote what God said in the Old Testament because God said it, not because the past was better.

Women’s position in the OT was absolutely dreadful.
If raped, they could be married to the rapist.
If their husband died without having children, they were married off to his brother.
Not to mention the absolutely gross health conditions in those times.

I am sorry you have disdain for the words the Almighty spoke to Moses. If an unbetrothed virgin were raped, she didn't have to be married off to her rapist. Her father could withold her from him. Girls married young back then and generally fathers love their daughters and want to protect them.

One thing about this law is that it seems to indicate that the principle of two becoming one flesh may be much more important to God than it is to people in modern society.

But it could also apply in cases where two young people were romantically involved and would get too affectionate and the man either seduced the girl or actually violated her.

As far as health concerns go, if Israel followed the Law, they were probably much better off than other nations. Egyptians put dung in medicine they consumed. Israelites washed frequently and quaranteened certain deadly diseases.

 

[Rachel20]

Rachel, I think you're reading into what people are writing here.
A Christian marriage is not a Muslim marriage. I'm not feeling burdened at all to expound on my equality because I am treated equally. Maybe it's that you feel that need to speak about that because of the situation in your country/society (which indeed is terrible for women).

No I did not read anything from the perspective of a Muslim marriage.

FYI, I come from India - which is a democratic country dominated by a Hindu population.

Congratulations on being treated so equally that you would never talk about equality for those who are denied that.

Personally, as a Christian I feel strongly driven to promote justice for all - even those who are downtrodden .


Oh yes, and still waiting for that verse which you were digging for...

And I have to comment on this one, the woman did not have to marry her rapist. He had to marry her. Which is, to pay for all her sustenance as long as she lives, and she probably did not even have to see him ever again. Or is God evil to command something like this? David has also "received Saul's wives into his bosom" but there's one verse, cant dig it out right now but I looked into this before, saying he never had anything to do with them, just sustained them as widows.

I am so sorry I didn't know that a man marrying a woman was different from the woman marrying him.


The verses that I looked into, which was Deuteronomy 22:28-29. It states that the rapist is made to marry the woman, after paying the bride price to her father and then he can never divorce her all his life.

[
Deuteronomy 22:28-29“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."
]

I suppose a woman who perhaps loved someone else would be tied to her rapist for her entire life.

It seems sad to me... but of course I don't want to make anyone feel stupid.

 

[Rachel20]

I am sorry you have disdain for the words the Almighty spoke to Moses. .

Nope I don't have disdain for God but I do hold disdain for men who fear an independent woman who is not afraid to voice her opinions or use her intellect.

For example I’ve noticed some men drawing parallels between western women and women from Asian countries. These women from Asian countries must be so wonderful because they don't hanker after equality.

One easy detail to forget is that such countries are predominantly backward and poverty stricken.
Indonesia, for example is Muslim dominated.
Countries where women have more freedom have better development indexes and safer environments (like Norway, New Zealand and Sweden)

I would think if some guy is constantly asking for submission, it shows that he is a highly insecure man who is very much threatened by a self sufficient and strong woman.

 

[iwant2serve]

Rachel20

Some of them were tough laws about the woman yet some of them were from God. I hate to say it this way beut go back to the begannng and see why God said the things he did about the position of the woman and the man. Another thing is when the woman was on her monthly the blood has a meaning to it and they were deemed unclean. Today some of them wont fly but they were not all wrong and harsh for women either. A lot of them was for their protection.

 

[iwant2serve]

Nope I don't have disdain for God but I do hold disdain for men who fear an independent woman who is not afraid to voice her opinions or use her intellect.

For example I’ve noticed some men drawing parallels between western women and women from Asian countries. These women from Asian countries must be so wonderful because they don't hanker after equality.

One easy detail to forget is that such countries are predominantly backward and poverty stricken.
Indonesia, for example is Muslim dominated.
Countries where women have more freedom have better development indexes and safer environments (like Norway, New Zealand and Sweden)

I would think if some guy is constantly asking for submission, it shows that he is a highly insecure man who is very much threatened by a self sufficient and strong woman.

Jus so you know this is what a man hears from statements lke this from women.
Very opnionted
stubborn
has to have things her way
overbearing
controlling
These are some of the things a man hears when the term strong woman is thrown at him. The Bible give a very clear meaning of a strong woman. Her strenght is her willingness to submit to her husband and be strong in her femininity.

 

[Rachel20]

Jus so you know this is what a man hears from statements lke this from women.
Very opnionted
stubborn
has to have things her way
overbearing
controlling
These are some of the things a man hears when the term strong woman is thrown at him. The Bible give a very clear meaning of a strong woman. Her strenght is her willingness to submit to her husband and be strong in her femininity.

Well too bad for that man. He needs Jesus.

After all, Jesus commanded us not to judge others.


FYI- The Bible talks of the strength of a woman - in her hands. Read Proverbs 31:17.

 

[Rachel20]

Rachel20

Some of them were tough laws about the woman yet some of them were from God. I hate to say it this way beut go back to the begannng and see why God said the things he did about the position of the woman and the man. Another thing is when the woman was on her monthly the blood has a meaning to it and they were deemed unclean. Today some of them wont fly but they were not all wrong and harsh for women either. A lot of them was for their protection.

I agree with you. I am very sure that God had His reasons for laying down His rules in that time period.

The irony is interesting though, when Christian people look down on Islam for it's treatment of women. I am sure it must have arisen out of the same context of protection.


Anyway.

I got to leave this discussion folks.

I have things to do, places to be - all that good stuff.


God bless you all and peace

 

[PoetMary]

What is really different and unique about women besides those things? Should I write about being 'more emotional' or having closer relationships with other women? Maybe other women could right those or other things. All I know about being a woman is second hand information.

The fact that you can think of NOTHING positive or advantageous about womanhood besides marrying and having children speaks to your limited understanding of women and womanhood.

So this begs the question: If you really don't understand the advantages of being female, why speak of it at all?

 

[SoulWeaver]

No I did not read anything from the perspective of a Muslim marriage.

FYI, I come from India - which is a democratic country dominated by a Hindu population.

Congratulations on being treated so equally that you would never talk about equality for those who are denied that.

Personally, as a Christian I feel strongly driven to promote justice for all - even those who are downtrodden .


Oh yes, and still waiting for that verse which you were digging for...






I am so sorry I didn't know that a man marrying a woman was different from the woman marrying him.


The verses that I looked into, which was Deuteronomy 22:28-29. It states that the rapist is made to marry the woman, after paying the bride price to her father and then he can never divorce her all his life.

[
Deuteronomy 22:28-29“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."
]

I suppose a woman who perhaps loved someone else would be tied to her rapist for her entire life.

It seems sad to me... but of course I don't want to make anyone feel stupid.

I'm sorry you decide to be mean and accusatory, so there's no point in a conversation with you, you purposely twist the points others make to make others look bad.
No, that's not at all what I said, nor how I understand this entire issue.

 

[PoetMary]

I do not believe that is what Elin meant.

I do not believe that she even implied what you are suggesting.

I think you missed the point.

Actually, it IS what was said. She said, "There's NO substitute for experience in the natural order."

If there is NO substitute, then that implies that NOTHING can replace experience.

If NOTHING can replace experience, then that predisposes that EXPERIENCE is the the only true route to knowledge and insight.

Of course, she did add the rider "in the natural order," so maybe she believes that there are other routes to knowledge in the "unnatural order." Whatever that is.

I cannot speak to what she "meant" because I cannot read her mind. I'm limited to the language she actually used.

 

[Rachel20]

I'm sorry you decide to be mean and accusatory, so there's no point in a conversation with you, you purposely twist the points others make to make others look bad.
No, that's not at all what I said, nor how I understand this entire issue.

I don't recall accusing you of anything, though I would consider calling someone arrogant or saying they didn't have the fruit of the spirit etc. would fall in that category [of being mean and accusatory]

Though I really don't want to accuse you of hypocrisy.

Sorry, I wont go down to that level of discussion and yes you should seriously check your attitude when you talk with your brothers and sisters. I've seen you behave this way before on forums and it's not the fruit of the Spirit at all.

Dear Lady,

You keep saying this.

I hope you submit to your desires of not wanting to reply to me


Peace.

 

[Rachel20]

I would think if some guy is constantly asking for submission, it shows that he is a highly insecure man who is very much threatened by a self sufficient and strong woman.

To be fair - that is quite "judge-y" of me. I do need Jesus for sure...

but still....

If I encountered such a man...

Yuck.



Oh well. Different strokes.

^_^ Peace everyone and much love in Christ!

 

[SoulWeaver]

I don't recall accusing you of anything, though I would consider calling someone arrogant or saying they didn't have the fruit of the spirit etc. would fall in that category [of being mean and accusatory]

Though I really don't want to accuse you of hypocrisy.

But you just did, else why make mention, and by putting the underlined into italics to further emphasise it.
I did not say you as a person dont have the fruit of the Spirit, but attitude in some posts you posted was simply wrong.

Dear Lady,

You keep saying this.

I hope you submit to your desires of not wanting to reply to me


Peace.

What I said is that I will not talk back to you in this snide way you're using, although you tried to provoke.
You seriously need to reconsider how you talk to people on this forum.

 

[Rachel20]

But you just did, else why make mention, and by putting the underlined into italics to further emphasise it.
I did not say you as a person dont have the fruit of the Spirit, but attitude in some posts you posted was simply wrong.

Oh Gosh, I love ya lady!

God bless!