Chris Tomlin -- bad doctrine?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

Chuckt

Guest
#21
The messages in most christian songs ARE milk..... if they're truly christian..... & many aren't.
I think Kim Hill's first two albums were the last Christian albums because few are based on the word of God and few songs are liturgical in that sense. It is a societal problem that people won't get back to the word of God.
 
Nov 26, 2011
38
0
0
#22
As a song writer, repetition is used to create an important hook in a song, particularly in a chorus. In this case the hook is a proclamation that God is perfect in all of His ways; how can there be anything wrong with that?

I guess the last line depends on how you read it! Yes, it could mean He is perfect in all of His ways to us in the sense that only we see it! There again, it could also mean He is perfect in the ways treats us. That would square with God's grace, faithfulness and forgiveness, amongst many other things, to us. I'm pretty sure this is what is intended in the song.
 

Odelschwanck

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
380
102
43
#23
I think Kim Hill's first two albums were the last Christian albums because few are based on the word of God and few songs are liturgical in that sense. It is a societal problem that people won't get back to the word of God.
Is it really that big of a difference between now and then? (Honest question, I was a baby at the time)
 

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#24
As a song writer, repetition is used to create an important hook in a song, particularly in a chorus. In this case the hook is a proclamation that God is perfect in all of His ways; how can there be anything wrong with that?
Then why did not the many great hymn writers of the past use this device?
 

Sonflower

Senior Member
Jan 30, 2016
850
147
43
#25
I don't see where the words "to us" is meant exclusively to believers. I took the "us" to mean all people.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#26
Then why did not the many great hymn writers of the past use this device?
they were too busy rewriting bar songs into christian hymns? Or like everything else music advanced? Cant help youre stuck in the past with them.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#27
I was listening to Christian music on iHeart Radio this morning and heard a song named "Good Good Father" by Chris Tomlin and I was astonished to find these lyrics:

You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us

(emphasis mine) Besides the fact that there is a ridiculous amount of repetitiveness in the lyrics throughout the entire song, I find these specific lyrics to be offensive to God. God is not perfect just to us as Believers, but He is perfect because He is perfect -- to everyone regardless of whether they believe or not.

Am I overreacting here, or is this really bad doctrine?



I would take it as an acknowledgement that we as Christians recognize His perfect ways. So, i have no problems with the lyrics. As Christians we generally have a better understanding of God. Non-Christians don't. To them God makes no sense.
 

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#28
they were too busy rewriting bar songs into christian hymns? Or like everything else music advanced? Cant help youre stuck in the past with them.
You know, Nautilus, you can really be ignorant sometimes. Let me educate you:

1. Hymn writers are the lyricists, not the musical composers. And while SOME of the hymn tunes used in older hymns were drinking tunes and folk tunes, the vast majority of them were NOT.

2. If you truly think today's popular music is more advanced than popular music even a mere 40 years ago, might I suggest you take a music appreciation course.

3. I am not stuck in the past. I believe in a fully blended worship experience -- everything from Martin Luther to the Gettys. With that said, I fully believe in using music of high quality, so sometimes that will disqualify folks like Chris Tomlin.

4. It should be "you're" not "youre."
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#29
I was listening to Christian music on iHeart Radio this morning and heard a song named "Good Good Father" by Chris Tomlin and I was astonished to find these lyrics:

You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us

(emphasis mine) Besides the fact that there is a ridiculous amount of repetitiveness in the lyrics throughout the entire song, I find these specific lyrics to be offensive to God. God is not perfect just to us as Believers, but He is perfect because He is perfect -- to everyone regardless of whether they believe or not.

Am I overreacting here, or is this really bad doctrine?



Bit of an overreaction. The lyrics don't deny He is Perfect regardless. They just said He is perfect to us.
It would be another matter if the lyrics stated 'He is perfect ONLY to us.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#30
You know, Nautilus, you can really be ignorant sometimes. Let me educate you:

1. Hymn writers are the lyricists, not the musical composers. And while SOME of the hymn tunes used in older hymns were drinking tunes and folk tunes, the vast majority of them were NOT.

2. If you truly think today's popular music is more advanced than popular music even a mere 40 years ago, might I suggest you take a music appreciation course.

3. I am not stuck in the past. I believe in a fully blended worship experience -- everything from Martin Luther to the Gettys. With that said, I fully believe in using music of high quality, so sometimes that will disqualify folks like Chris Tomlin.

4. It should be "you're" not "youre."
things get old and they die, so should some msuic. you know what music they play in all the dying church congregations around my area? Your precious hymns. Families, young adults, and young couples live those places in droves. The traditional music and services are a death knell to the older congregations. But if your music was so great this shouldn't be an issue? Hmmm, I wonder what bares out? Personal opinion or visible results?

The Gettys also aren't something I would count as modern. They are still hymn writers, which is a dying artform. Churches today and churchgoers are clearly moving more towards the hillsongs and jesus cultures and bethels and sure to your dismay, the chris tomlins.
 

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#31
The Gettys also aren't something I would count as modern. They are still hymn writers, which is a dying artform.
If the Gettys are so outdated, why are they so popular?

The traditional music and services are a death knell to the older congregations.
This is why I believe so strongly in blended worship! Duh... We need to integrate the new with the old so all generations worship together and not split our churches up over worship style.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#32
for the gettys being so popular ive honestly never heard of them until you typed the name.
 

G4JC

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2011
668
6
0
#33

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#34
for the gettys being so popular ive honestly never heard of them until you typed the name.
So you've never sung "In Christ Alone" or "Speak, O Lord" or "The Power of the Cross"? If not, then you need to ask whoever chooses music in your church to consider these pieces. They are truly great worship songs.
 
B

BatmanRSM

Guest
#35
I heard a Toby Mac song once that sounded like he said he became Jehovah. I never read the lyrics are anything, but I listened to it a few times and it sounded like it. Hey also now that I think about Chris Tomlin has a song that says You will never give up on us no matter how far we run. It might rhyme with the previous verse, but we are to abide in Christ and those that don't are cast aside. We are to be the salt of the earth but if the salt loses its flavor.......... However, I have learned that only God and the other person truly know about the covenant between them. We can know people by their fruits, but only God can judge who has broken His covenant completely. Oh that song by Toby Mac is called Made to Love.
The by TobyMac is called "Made to Love" and the lyric in question is;


"
I'm reachin' out, reachin' up, reachin' over
I feel a breeze cover me called Jehovah
And daddy, I'm on my way
'Cause I was made to love"
 
Feb 20, 2016
197
5
0
#36
He is perfect in all of His ways to us. He treats us well is all he is saying and it's true!!
 
U

Ultimatum77

Guest
#37
The one thing I've noticed since dealing with all the "hypergrace" threads is the countless songs about grace that contain nothing about faith & very little about Jesus Himself. Something to think about.....
I totally agree, most modern artist like Chris Tomlin and Matt Redman are just throwing "hip" songs with bland lyrics that get the crowd to be happy at the concert.....very little about Jesus Himself indeed, some you can even substitute "girlfriend" in for the pronouns and it sounds like a secular song lol....the hyper grace get's old there are other things to being a Christian like faith, restoration, hope etc...and the divinity of God.....
 
B

BatmanRSM

Guest
#38
4. It should be "you're" not "youre."

Correcting a typo, especially one that is small as a apostrophe weannes your case and makes you look petty.
 
B

BatmanRSM

Guest
#40
New to the internet are you?
Not at all. Just because others may do it, does not make it right. As believers in Christ we are to speak with love. Pointing out a simple typo the way you did is not speaking, or does not come across as love. Same with your replay towards me. This attitude and behavior might and will keep people from coming to Christ.