Ukraine Summit in Minsk

[GodIsSalvation]

Petro Poroshenko (Ukraine), Angela Merkel (Germany), Francois Hollande (France), and Putin (Russia) are expected to meet in Minsk (Belarus). The subject is to be of the war in Ukraine with the stated goal of trying to secure some sort of a peace agreement, ceasefire, or to resolve any of the many problems that have come with this theater of WW3.

4 world leaders aim to hold Ukraine talks

Personally I am a little skeptical due to the falling out of the last round of talks, but nevertheless am hoping for whatever can be best to bring any sort of relief for the sake of the Ukrainian people directly affected.

 

[Skinski7]

Petro Poroshenko (Ukraine), Angela Merkel (Germany), Francois Hollande (France), and Putin (Russia) are expected to meet in Minsk (Belarus). The subject is to be of the war in Ukraine with the stated goal of trying to secure some sort of a peace agreement, ceasefire, or to resolve any of the many problems that have come with this theater of WW3.

4 world leaders aim to hold Ukraine talks

Personally I am a little skeptical due to the falling out of the last round of talks, but nevertheless am hoping for whatever can be best to bring any sort of relief for the sake of the Ukrainian people directly affected.

There can be no peace agreement out of this.

The Poroshenko government refuses to engage in dialogue with the leaders of the L/DPR and also refuses to acknowledge their actual grievances which is are about the radical nationalism and neo-nazism which is the underlying motive for the separatist movement.

The Poroshenko government is engaging this false reality where everything that is occurring is due to a "Russian Invasion" and that they are simply "defending their land."

There is no way under that paradigm that the NAF forces will engage Minsk.

Look at this article as it states what Poroshenko wants (use google translate)...

Луценко назвал компромиссы, которые Киев допускает по Донбассу

State border with Russia must control exclusively and solely Ukrainian law enforcers...Not any peacekeeping troops or joint patrols with the Russian Federation, nor any other options can not bring peace if the state control will be carried out not Ukrainian Armed Forces and the State Border Service

Does one really think that the L/DPR will want to cede their border to Russia to the control of the UAF?

Also on the territories controlled by the rebels must pass under the control of the local elections in Ukraine and the OSCE.

Does one really think that the L/DPR will allow themselves to pass under control of those they believe are fascists and nazis? There is no way, that is what they are fighting against.

The U.S. administration and the Kiev government are on another planet in regards to all this. The danger of being on this other planet is that they are willing to push Russia and it is very possible that this conflict could expand even into a nuclear war. This conflict is creating a clear divide in the world between those whom are pro-US and those are are anti-US.

Remember everything that is occurring in Ukraine is within the context of an attempt to contain Russia to minimise a threat against the emerging and strengthening world order.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

There can be no peace agreement out of this.

The Poroshenko government refuses to engage in dialogue with the leaders of the L/DPR and also refuses to acknowledge their actual grievances which is are about the radical nationalism and neo-nazism which is the underlying motive for the separatist movement.

The Poroshenko government is engaging this false reality where everything that is occurring is due to a "Russian Invasion" and that they are simply "defending their land."

There is no way under that paradigm that the NAF forces will engage Minsk.

Look at this article as it states what Poroshenko wants (use google translate)...

Луценко назвал компромиссы, которые Киев допускает по Донбассу



Does one really think that the L/DPR will want to cede their border to Russia to the control of the UAF?



Does one really think that the L/DPR will allow themselves to pass under control of those they believe are fascists and nazis? There is no way, that is what they are fighting against.

The U.S. administration and the Kiev government are on another planet in regards to all this. The danger of being on this other planet is that they are willing to push Russia and it is very possible that this conflict could expand even into a nuclear war. This conflict is creating a clear divide in the world between those whom are pro-US and those are are anti-US.

Remember everything that is occurring in Ukraine is within the context of an attempt to contain Russia to minimise a threat against the emerging and strengthening world order.

Aye these are good points to be made. This is why I am skeptical in part that a lasting peace agreement will come out of this. Remember though, there is another side to the danger. That is by doing nothing, if this war gets out of hand the US and/or Britain may have to intervene due to the Budapest Memoranda agreement we hold with Ukraine which states that in the event of a war that threatens the sovereignty of Ukraine that the US, UK, and Russia have agreed to aid the Ukrainians to whatever the Ukrainian president requests. They have also agreed that if one party breaks the agreement the other two parties will fight the aggressor. So far Poroshenko has only requested supplies. If this war gets too terrible though, or if the Russians straight up invade, he might ask for more, and America and Britain would be obligated to aid him.

What I am hoping for here with these talks is maybe a temporary ceasefire to allow some serious negotiations to take place and to allow safe passage for any folks that want to flee to do so. Even that is unlikely, but it is the best I can think of to hope for for the current time.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

There can be no peace agreement out of this.

I agree, but not because of Poroshenko. Because of Putin.

The Poroshenko government refuses to engage in dialogue with the leaders of the L/DPR and also refuses to acknowledge their actual grievances which is are about the radical nationalism and neo-nazism which is the underlying motive for the separatist movement.

There are no bases for these comments other than propaganda out of Moscow. Ukranian Jews themselves deny Nazism or anti-Semitism exists in the post-revolutionary government.

GThe Poroshenko government is engaging this false reality where everything that is occurring is due to a "Russian Invasion" and that they are simply "defending their land."

It isn't a false reality, and that is exactly what they are doing -- attempting to defend their land against an annexation effort by Russia, as Putin desires a reconstituted Soviet state, with all the old satellites tucked neatly in a row.

There is no way under that paradigm that the NAF forces will engage Minsk.

Look at this article as it states what Poroshenko wants (use google translate)...

Луценко назвал компромиссы, которые Киев допускает по Донбассу

And what, exactly, are you wanting us to see in that article? Poroshenko rejects "joint patrols" with Russian Federation troops in the East. So? It's his country, he doesn't need Russian Federation troops on his soil -- at least, no more than he already has, given that the "rebels" are Russian Federation troops in unmarked uniforms.

Does one really think that the L/DPR will allow themselves to pass under control of those they believe are fascists and nazis? There is no way, that is what they are fighting against.

They don't anymore believe the Poroshenko government is fascist/Nazi that they believe that Poroshenko is the man in the moon. They are nothing more than pro-Russian old-line apparatchiks who prefer totalatarianism -- and the perks their cooperation with that form of government bring them -- to democracy.

The U.S. administration and the Kiev government are on another planet in regards to all this. The danger of being on this other planet is that they are willing to push Russia and it is very possible that this conflict could expand even into a nuclear war. This conflict is creating a clear divide in the world between those whom are pro-US and those are are anti-US.

The anti-U.S. opinions don't need to be fed by propaganda of the type the "rebels" and the Russian government (read: Putin) are putting out, propaganda that can be recognized at 1,000 yards without a scope.

Remember everything that is occurring in Ukraine is within the context of an attempt to contain Russia to minimise a threat against the emerging and strengthening world order.

Putin write that for you, or did you just cut-and-paste it off the Pravda editorial page?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I agree, but not because of Poroshenko. Because of Putin.

There are no bases for these comments other than propaganda out of Moscow. Ukranian Jews themselves deny Nazism or anti-Semitism exists in the post-revolutionary government.

It isn't a false reality, and that is exactly what they are doing -- attempting to defend their land against an annexation effort by Russia, as Putin desires a reconstituted Soviet state, with all the old satellites tucked neatly in a row.


And what, exactly, are you wanting us to see in that article? Poroshenko rejects "joint patrols" with Russian Federation troops in the East. So? It's his country, he doesn't need Russian Federation troops on his soil -- at least, no more than he already has, given that the "rebels" are Russian Federation troops in unmarked uniforms.


They don't anymore believe the Poroshenko government is fascist/Nazi that they believe that Poroshenko is the man in the moon. They are nothing more than pro-Russian old-line apparatchiks who prefer totalatarianism -- and the perks their cooperation with that form of government bring them -- to democracy.


The anti-U.S. opinions don't need to be fed by propaganda of the type the "rebels" and the Russian government (read: Putin) are putting out, propaganda that can be recognized at 1,000 yards without a scope.

View attachment 97275

Putin write that for you, or did you just cut-and-paste it off the Pravda editorial page?

Peace is mutual. Indeed though Putin is pretty openly against America, even if he were to agree to work towards ending this war, he would still be anti-American. America though is not so blameless herself. Indeed though, America has kept her words with Ukraine, but that is even her weakness. Much depends on Poroshenko, and that right there is America's weakness, because what he asks might be a weighty matter.

However this man here has a point. It is indeed true the rebels, and many peoples, do think of the West or Ukraine as he has said, and much more of course. There is a great buzz about four big national servants and leaders meeting. Yet I see little about the rebels. If Putin is their only voice in the matter then indeed, Putin will of course defend himself.

For these talks notice it is not even America nor Britain representing the West, but rather France and Germany which do have the closer ties with Russia. There seems to me a good opportunity here in the midst of WW3 to try to either at best shut down a major theater of the war, or to at the least try to find ways to help the people that are caught up in it to get out of it. It also would be to everyone's advantage to diffuse a flashpoint between the two nations, USA and Russia, with reputedly the most nukes from using them. How the deal will actually go down, that we shall see.

 

[Skinski7]

You folks can scoff at what is really going on and dwell in some false propaganda reality. Although such a false reality will come crashing down when it comes into contact with the wall of reality.


There will not be a ceasefire over there because the terms Ukraine demands are not reasonable and secondly the Poroshenko government is speaking with Russia instead of the leadership of the Donetsk and Luhansk Peoples Republics.

The United States has erred greatly in turning a blind eye to the radical anti-Russian nationalism which has overtaken Ukraine. They have in effect put Russia on the moral high ground and in doing so forced the world to pick sides. Nothing good can come out of any of this.

The Debaltsev Trap was closed today and approximately 8000 Ukrainian troops have been completely surrounded. This will likely be a significant event in this conflict and may just break the back of the UAF. People like Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk are living in a bubble and seem willing to sacrifice their people on an altar of blood so it would not be surprising if they continue to make foolish decisions. They already instigated the conflict via indiscriminate shelling, likely to scare the Donbass people into submission, yet it backfired on them and only served to feed and justify anti-Kiev sentiment. When the miners of Donbass formed their own militia and over 15,000 police joined the separatist cause it was clearly evident that the people of Donbass would not bow down to the western agenda.

It is such a shame as none of it was necessary, yet it just goes to show how western oligarchs care more about a geopolitical agenda as opposed to the lives of people whom live in a particular region.

 

[Skinski7]

They don't anymore believe the Poroshenko government is fascist/Nazi that they believe that Poroshenko is the man in the moon. They are nothing more than pro-Russian old-line apparatchiks who prefer totalatarianism -- and the perks their cooperation with that form of government bring them -- to democracy.

Is that so?

[video=youtube;aleNs4fK9Og]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aleNs4fK9Og[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

Some people just don't like to hear something that conflicts with their paradigm.

[video=youtube;4BVPtiwdrlI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BVPtiwdrlI[/video]

 

[tribesman]

Ukraine is often being portrayed in the west as the "good" power, fighting the evil russians. The policies of Kiev have also other implications such as those of the Carpathian region and its discrimination against ruthenians and hungarians is yet fitly filtered out by the western mainstream media for the masses to see.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

No doubt this war is complicated and brutal. It seems to me all the parties involved are conceding that there will be no lasting peace agreement. Nevertheless, this is a very rare opportunity right here to at least do something to help those whom are not part of the war, but are caught up between it. Depending how things turn out; who knows if there will be another opportunity like this for the West to directly negotiate with Putin?

On the direct subject of the talks, we can see America is not involved directly in the talks. Perhaps this is for good reason as the mind of America is all ready made up. Yesterday Angela Merkel met with Obama and the two of them held a very interesting press conference talking about this issue and many others. Here is the video of the press conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r23-k6NFa_k
[video=youtube;r23-k6NFa_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r23-k6NFa_k[/video]

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You folks can scoff at what is really going on and dwell in some false propaganda reality. Although such a false reality will come crashing down when it comes into contact with the wall of reality.


There will not be a ceasefire over there because the terms Ukraine demands are not reasonable and secondly the Poroshenko government is speaking with Russia instead of the leadership of the Donetsk and Luhansk Peoples Republics.

The United States has erred greatly in turning a blind eye to the radical anti-Russian nationalism which has overtaken Ukraine. They have in effect put Russia on the moral high ground and in doing so forced the world to pick sides. Nothing good can come out of any of this.

The Debaltsev Trap was closed today and approximately 8000 Ukrainian troops have been completely surrounded. This will likely be a significant event in this conflict and may just break the back of the UAF. People like Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk are living in a bubble and seem willing to sacrifice their people on an altar of blood so it would not be surprising if they continue to make foolish decisions. They already instigated the conflict via indiscriminate shelling, likely to scare the Donbass people into submission, yet it backfired on them and only served to feed and justify anti-Kiev sentiment. When the miners of Donbass formed their own militia and over 15,000 police joined the separatist cause it was clearly evident that the people of Donbass would not bow down to the western agenda.

It is such a shame as none of it was necessary, yet it just goes to show how western oligarchs care more about a geopolitical agenda as opposed to the lives of people whom live in a particular region.

the only reason there cannot be a real ceasefire is because russia and its puppet militias don't want one...-several- ceasefires have actually been negotiated already...each one was broken by the separatists...

ukraine's demands are that russia stop sending heavy weapons into ukraine...that its proxies stop attacking ukrainian positions...and that rule of law be restored in the separatist controlled regions instead of the barbarian fiefdoms they have there now...how is that unreasonable?

and there reason the poroshenko government is negotiating directly with russia is twofold...first of all everyone knows that russia is funding and arming and training and recruiting the separatists...and secondly because in recent weeks the separatists have flat out -refused to negotiate-...

poroshenko actually -did- negotiate with the separatists' representatives at minsk last august...and the separatists have since broken virtually every word of the agreement they signed there...

and furthermore what gives these separatist leaders who rule at gunpoint through summary executions and torture and rampant human rights violations the right to present themselves at negotiations as the representatives of anyone?

'radical anti russian nationalism' has not 'overtaken ukraine'...the radical anti russian groups such as right sector and svoboda barely even made it into the ukrainian parliament in the most recent election...ukraine's governing parties are ordinary modern political parties...if their rhetoric or that of anyone in ukraine sounds 'anti russian' it is because russia is -an aggressor invading their country-

and speaking of radical nationalism...have you looked at russia lately? radical anti western nationalism and radical xenophobia in general is out of control in russia these days...anyone who criticizes the putin regime is categorized as a 'foreign agent' and persecuted...

i can see that you are happy that about 8,000 ukrainians are soon to be murdered or captured and tortured by russia's puppets...yet you think you have the moral right to accuse anyone of 'sacrificing people on an altar of blood'? you are the one who is hoping for mass casualties in order to 'break the back' of ukraine's defensive capabilities...

but i suppose even talking to you is futile...anyone who can still sympathize with russia or their puppet militias at this point is too far gone and hopelessly given over to delusion or evil or both...

 

[Desdichado]

You know, I just can't help but wonder if I am watching a power struggle between Mordor and Isengard.

 

[Skinski7]

Stuff

You obviously have only been paying attention to the western media perspective.

You have to understand both perspective and read between the lines as well as have some historical understanding.

The entire situation in Ukraine is a result of an underhanded U.S. geostrategic goal to contain Russia. In the same way that the Arab Spring was nurtured by U.S. agents so were the events of Euromaiden.

Look up and read about Zbigniew Brzezinski who has commented extensively on how Russia is to be contained via strategic goals implemented in Ukraine. Brzezinski is one of the establishment movers and shakers in this world. Henry Kissinger has even admitted that most people don't understand the greater context of what is actually going on.

The U.S. sponsored the TechCamp Project which is what nurtured Euromaiden into reality, the U.S. then basically guided the new government into power. This has all been proven but is simply glanced over in the media.

Here is evidence of the TechCamp Project in Ukraine...
TechCamp:Kiev Agenda - TechCampGlobal

Here is evidence from the Ukrainian Rada where a warning was given about TechCamp being used to destabilise Ukraine and bring about a civil war in order to further U.S. interests. Note the date is Nov, 11, 2013 which is BEFORE Euromaiden took place.

Party of Regions MP Tsariov accuses US Embassy in Ukraine of training revolutionaries for street protests
Party of Regions MP Tsariov accuses US Embassy in Ukraine of training revolutionaries for street protests

Here is the transcript from the leaked phone call between Victoria Nuland (U.S. Assistant Secretary of State) and the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine where they discuss how they are manipulating the formation of the new government.
BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

The Right Sector Bandera nationalists took advantage of the Euromaiden and were able to radicalise a great amount of people and influenced the government in such a way as to be able to form their own armed paramilitary units such as the Azov and Aidar Battalions. Anti-Russian sentiment and persecution of anyone with a pro-Russian sentiment resulted from this and that is what led to the Odessa Massacre in which over 40 people were burned to death by Right Sector activists.

This clear Anti-Russian sentiment even exhibited actions like the bashing of the pro-Russian candidate who was running in the national election after Euromaiden. He had to flee Kiev for his life.

The people of Donbass reacted to these events and protested in the streets eventually leading to the takeover of administration buildings in their region by both unarmed and armed activists.

A Russian by the name of Igor Strelkov who is a very idealistic man saw what was going on in Ukraine and also saw western actions as a threat to the future of Russia and thus organised a group of about 30 men and crossed the border into Ukraine. They journeyed to Slaviansk where they were welcomed by the locals (Slaviansk was a mid sized pro-Russian town specifically chosen for this) where they proceeded to take over the police station and barricade the town. Many locals joined the separatist movement.

Anti-Russian violence in the country also resulted in violence in some places in Donbass against those who were outspokenly anti-Russian. Sin produces sin.

Kiev reacted to the separatist uprising and calls for a referendum by sending the military to suppress it.

The people of Donbass held a referendum on independence from Ukraine which had a very high turn out. Many people joined the militias, especially after the Odessa Massacre, and prepared for a confrontation with the Kiev authorities.

Then the Anti-Terrorist Operation began in which many civilians have died. The indiscriminate targeting of residential areas resulted with an increase of support for the separatist cause among the locals and a full scale civil war began.



The west portrays the whole thing as a Russian invasion when nothing could be further from the truth. Sure Russia is supporting the L/DPR with humanitarian aide, allowing volunteers, and probably ammunition (although that is hard to prove).

Ukraine is a proxy war being fought between Russia and the U.S. oligarchs and the people there are caught in the middle.

We ought not support the U.S. oligarchs or the Nazi supportive government in Kiev. We ought not support Russia either, for our war is not against flesh and blood. Yet Russia is most definitely espousing a more accurate version of what is going on whilst the western media is espousing a total fictional account.

 

[Skinski7]

t
poroshenko actually -did- negotiate with the separatists' representatives at minsk last august...and the separatists have since broken virtually every word of the agreement they signed there...

Here is an alternative view for you to consider...

[video=youtube;vCcJ-OoIU6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCcJ-OoIU6E[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

i can see that you are happy that about 8,000 ukrainians are soon to be murdered or captured and tortured by russia's puppets...yet you think you have the moral right to accuse anyone of 'sacrificing people on an altar of blood'? you are the one who is hoping for mass casualties in order to 'break the back' of ukraine's defensive capabilities...

You know, this type of comment is disgusting. To accuse someone who is trying to point out the greater picture of being happy to see 8,000 people murdered is an atrocious statement. Why say something like that? I think it likely and ill conceived and desperate outburst used as a last resort jab in an attempt to discredit someone by painting them as some kind of evil cheerleader.

I simply stated that what is going on with the complete encirclement of the reported 6,000-8,000 UAF troops may very well be a significant turning point in what is going on over there. Already there is a lot of dissent on the UAF side in how what is going on is reported as to how they cover up the true numbers of dead and the seriousness of the situation. Back in January the Ukrainian government lied for over a week claiming they still controlled the Donetsk Airport while they tried to recapture it, often with unprepared fresh recruits. It is very obvious that the leadership in Kiev and the interests which back them do not care about the lives of the people both western and eastern Ukrainian.

There is far more going on than simply what the western media reports and to accuse me of being an evil cheerleader is deplorable. I don't support either side because killing people is never the answer, our war is not with flesh and blood. Yet that does not mean I don't understand what is actually going on.

'radical anti russian nationalism' has not 'overtaken ukraine'...the radical anti russian groups such as right sector and svoboda barely even made it into the ukrainian parliament in the most recent election...ukraine's governing parties are ordinary modern political parties...if their rhetoric or that of anyone in ukraine sounds 'anti russian' it is because russia is -an aggressor invading their country-

That is a very naive statement. The simple fact that radical anti-Russian nationalism is even tolerated in Ukraine is the problem. When the Odessa Massacre occurred the blame was put on the police who it is said did not do their jobs properly. The whole thing has been swept under the carpet.

I think you might need to watch this before making another comment...

[video=youtube;wwVUp4IWEKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVUp4IWEKw[/video]

The very fact that Ukraine supports an an entire Battalion called Azov which is run by an avowed Neo-Nazi who has made public statements relating to the "cleansing of Ukraine of subhumans" should set an alarm off for absolutely anyone. Just because the western media doesn't report it does not mean it is not true.

Azov Battalion
Azov Battalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Azov Battalion (Ukrainian: Батальйон «Азов») is an all-volunteer paramilitary militia affiliated with the Ukraine government,[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] which reports to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and is a member of the National Guard of Ukraine.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] The battalion is based in Mariupol in the Azov Sea coastal region.[SUP][6][/SUP] The BBC's Fergal Keane has called the unit "a far-right Ukrainian militia".[SUP][7][/SUP] It is one of several volunteer battalions funded in part by Ukraine oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyi.[SUP][8][/SUP]

The battalion's commander is Andriy Biletsky (Ukrainian: Андрій Білецький), who was awarded by Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko with a military decoration, "Order For Courage", and promoted to lieutenant colonel of police.[SUP][9][/SUP] In the beginning, Azov was the Ministry of Internal Affairs special police company, led by Volodymyr Shpara (Ukrainian: Володимир Шпара), the leader of the Vasylkiv's Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector organizations in the Kiev region.[SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP] Biletsky stayed out of the public spotlight working on expanding Azov to battalion size. In summer 2014 he took the command of the unit in his own hands; Shpara remained in the battalion as the commander of the 1st Company.

Biletsky is also the head of two neo-Nazi political groups, Patriot of Ukraine and Social-National Assembly.[SUP][13][/SUP]

Andriy Biletsky wrote this last year...

Apart from the question of purity, we must pay attention to the issue of the usefulness of Race. Ukrainians - it's part (and one of the largest and highest quality) European White Race. Races Creator of a great civilization, the greatest human achievements. The historic mission of our nation at this critical time - to lead and lead the White peoples of the world in the last crusade for their existence. Crusade against Semite-led subhumanity.

source - Идеология Социал-Национальной Ассамблеи ‹ WotanJugend
(Web Archive of article written by Biletsky in June 2014 for a Neo-Nazi website which was soon pulled when it was revealed publicly)


Now the Rada may not be saying that but they certainly tolerate it. Also when the Prime Minister of Ukraine refers to pro-Russian separatists as subhumans it also raises questions...

Psaki. On Russian Separatists as Sub-Human. 16 June 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBy7tQ124Fk

Remember the separatists include the 15,000 Donbass policemen who refused to submit to the Kiev authorities and sided with Novorossia. The separatists also include all the people who voted in the referendum for self autonomy back in May 2014, men and woman, young and old.

There is plenty of evidence which shows how the public in the west is being consistently lied to about the whole situation. The extent of the lies is almost beyond belief.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You obviously have only been paying attention to the western media perspective.

You have to understand both perspective and read between the lines as well as have some historical understanding.

The entire situation in Ukraine is a result of an underhanded U.S. geostrategic goal to contain Russia. In the same way that the Arab Spring was nurtured by U.S. agents so were the events of Euromaiden.

Look up and read about Zbigniew Brzezinski who has commented extensively on how Russia is to be contained via strategic goals implemented in Ukraine. Brzezinski is one of the establishment movers and shakers in this world. Henry Kissinger has even admitted that most people don't understand the greater context of what is actually going on.

The U.S. sponsored the TechCamp Project which is what nurtured Euromaiden into reality, the U.S. then basically guided the new government into power. This has all been proven but is simply glanced over in the media.

Here is evidence of the TechCamp Project in Ukraine...
TechCamp:Kiev Agenda - TechCampGlobal

Here is evidence from the Ukrainian Rada where a warning was given about TechCamp being used to destabilise Ukraine and bring about a civil war in order to further U.S. interests. Note the date is Nov, 11, 2013 which is BEFORE Euromaiden took place.

Party of Regions MP Tsariov accuses US Embassy in Ukraine of training revolutionaries for street protests
Party of Regions MP Tsariov accuses US Embassy in Ukraine of training revolutionaries for street protests

Here is the transcript from the leaked phone call between Victoria Nuland (U.S. Assistant Secretary of State) and the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine where they discuss how they are manipulating the formation of the new government.
BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

The Right Sector Bandera nationalists took advantage of the Euromaiden and were able to radicalise a great amount of people and influenced the government in such a way as to be able to form their own armed paramilitary units such as the Azov and Aidar Battalions. Anti-Russian sentiment and persecution of anyone with a pro-Russian sentiment resulted from this and that is what led to the Odessa Massacre in which over 40 people were burned to death by Right Sector activists.

This clear Anti-Russian sentiment even exhibited actions like the bashing of the pro-Russian candidate who was running in the national election after Euromaiden. He had to flee Kiev for his life.

The people of Donbass reacted to these events and protested in the streets eventually leading to the takeover of administration buildings in their region by both unarmed and armed activists.

A Russian by the name of Igor Strelkov who is a very idealistic man saw what was going on in Ukraine and also saw western actions as a threat to the future of Russia and thus organised a group of about 30 men and crossed the border into Ukraine. They journeyed to Slaviansk where they were welcomed by the locals (Slaviansk was a mid sized pro-Russian town specifically chosen for this) where they proceeded to take over the police station and barricade the town. Many locals joined the separatist movement.

Anti-Russian violence in the country also resulted in violence in some places in Donbass against those who were outspokenly anti-Russian. Sin produces sin.

Kiev reacted to the separatist uprising and calls for a referendum by sending the military to suppress it.

The people of Donbass held a referendum on independence from Ukraine which had a very high turn out. Many people joined the militias, especially after the Odessa Massacre, and prepared for a confrontation with the Kiev authorities.

Then the Anti-Terrorist Operation began in which many civilians have died. The indiscriminate targeting of residential areas resulted with an increase of support for the separatist cause among the locals and a full scale civil war began.



The west portrays the whole thing as a Russian invasion when nothing could be further from the truth. Sure Russia is supporting the L/DPR with humanitarian aide, allowing volunteers, and probably ammunition (although that is hard to prove).

Ukraine is a proxy war being fought between Russia and the U.S. oligarchs and the people there are caught in the middle.

We ought not support the U.S. oligarchs or the Nazi supportive government in Kiev. We ought not support Russia either, for our war is not against flesh and blood. Yet Russia is most definitely espousing a more accurate version of what is going on whilst the western media is espousing a total fictional account.

actually much of my information comes from non western sources...including even the separatists' own publications...the problem is that most of -your- information comes from neo KGB kremlin propagandists...

the entire situation in ukraine is the result of russia's efforts to reestablish the 'evil empire' with even more evil than before...the ukrainian people didn't and don't want to be ruled by a chekist puppet regime so they resisted...and if the united states aided the ukrainian people in their struggle for freedom then why exactly is that a bad thing? now putin isn't happy with the choice of the ukrainian people so his acolytes organized the separatist rebellion and when that didn't work russia flat out invaded...with russia's government all the while more and more ludicriously denying what they were doing...

the 'evidence from the ukrainian rada' you posted to support your opinion comes directly from an official of the 'party of regions'...russia's former puppet party in ukraine...-of course- putin's mouthpieces are going to accuse the west... what is amazing is that you -believe- statements from a source with such an obvious conflict of interest... if anything your source merely proves that the anti western paranoia of russia and their puppets predates the euromaidan and that russia's intent of villifying the west has been in the making for a long time...

the reason the government permits the azov battalions and others to operate is simply because the russian puppet president who abdicated had left ukraine's military in such a state of disrepair that the ukrainian government has had to rely on volunteers for self defense from the sudden aggression of russia and the militants it props up...

what you call the 'odessa massacre' was actually the result of pro russian sociopaths attacking a group of mostly soccer fans who were demonstrating in favor of ukrainian unity...the unity supporters fought back and then as more ukrainian citizens arrived they decided to cut off the source of the attackers and dismantle the pro russian camp nearby...the russian sycophants responded by taking over the trade union building...fire bombs were being thrown in both directions until the building caught on fire and the people inside died...

the loss of life was an unfortunate event...as even the ukrainian acting president at the time acknowledged when he declared two days of mourning for the dead...but the event was completely provoked by the pro russian thugs who showed up to attack peaceful demonstrators... and odessa was still more fortunate than cities like donetsk and lugansk where russia's puppets were actually able to succed and what they were attempting on odessa and being their reign of terror...

after putin sent his agent strelkov to organize puppet militias in an attempt to take control of eastern ukraine for russia...then his militants held a sham referendum at gunpoint...complete with rampant bribery and unhindered multiple voting and all the other hallmarks of russian style government...

your claim that it is 'hard to prove' that russia is providing ammunition to the separatists is ridiculous...not only is it proven beyond a doubt that russia is arming the separatists through their 'humanitarian' convoys that always seemed carry very little actual food...it is also proven beyond a doubt that russia is providing heavy weapons and tanks and missile vehicles and even russian regular troops to their puppets...for example tanks have been photographed in eastern ukraine that are -only- in the possession of the russian military...and numerous tracks of heavy vehicles have been spotted leading from russia's military encampments near rostov into ukraine...

to call the elected government of ukraine 'nazi supportive' is both inaccurate and hypocritical...the most active supporters of putin's aggression against ukraine have been -neo nazi organizations-

the western media may not be perfect...but what russia is espousing is nothing short of pathological lying at this point...the kind of thing a person can only agree with if they are completely removed from all truth...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You know, this type of comment is disgusting.

no what is disgusting is that someone like you comes into a -christian- chat room shamelessly defending evil...

and this isn't the first instance of you promoting lies here...most people who have been here for a while are by now aware of all of the blatantly false teaching you have long been trying to spread in the bible study forum...

 

[Skinski7]

It is a shame Rachel that you are caught within the dialectic of having to "pick a side" and that due to that you clearly take an offense at information that you find opposes the side you have chosen.

There is evil on both sides of the conflict.

Your entire position can be summed up in...

actually much of my information comes from non western sources...including even the separatists' own publications...the problem is that most of -your- information comes from neo KGB kremlin propagandists...

the entire situation in ukraine is the result of russia's efforts to reestablish the 'evil empire' with even more evil than before

That mindset causes you to dismiss anything to the contrary. Oh, pro-separatist sources released video of a Ukrainian jet bombing the administration building in Luhansk taken from 5 different angles, yet the U.S. and Kiev position was that the seperatists blew themselves up with a missile hitting an air conditioner. Well the evidence that contradicts the Kiev and U.S. line comes from "pro-Russia" thereofre it it just neo KGB Kremlin Propaganda.

See how that works?

The U.S. is being used to establish an evil empire around the world if you have not noticed. Mass abortion and hedonism is the order of the day in the west with added pro-sodomy, anti-God, all with a smiley face rhetorical spin of "freedom and democracy we care about everyone" lying rhetoric.

There is no good guy versus bad guy. There are wicked people playing their political and idealistic games and ignorant populations whom support them.

Russia is no more evil than the west.

And yes it is disgusting to accuse me of relishing in the death of people when not a single word I wrote even came close to such a thing. I see the whole situation as a tragedy. Slav killing slav and what for? A geopolitical game forced upon a local population where a rabid fascism is ignored?

This statement...

the loss of life was an unfortunate event...as even the ukrainian acting president at the time acknowledged when he declared two days of mourning for the dead...but the event was completely provoked by the pro russian thugs who showed up to attack peaceful demonstrators... and odessa was still more fortunate than cities like donetsk and lugansk where russia's puppets were actually able to succed and what they were attempting on odessa and being their reign of terror...

Crocodile tears and two days of mourning undoes what occurred? The people in the building were part of a separate protest and they did not attack the Right Sector activists. There were reported clashes earlier on between Right Sector and Pro-Russian groups but that had nothing to do with what happened at the Trade Union building.

Where are the prosecutions? There have been two courts cases since the incident both of which have been shut down by Right Sector mobs. That is not reported in the western media, I suppose it is just neo KGB Kremlin propaganda.

Well here is some neo KGB Kremlin Propaganda so people can judge for themselves...

[h=1]Roses Have Thorns (Part 6) The Odessa Massacre (Warning Disturbing Images)[/h][video=youtube;QxcB0PI4ZLg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxcB0PI4ZLg[/video]



And as for this...

and this isn't the first instance of you promoting lies here...most people who have been here for a while are by now aware of all of the blatantly false teaching you have long been trying to spread in the bible study forum...

I have consistently contended for heart purity in salvation and how it relates to a cessation of all willful rebellion to God. I know that the Calvnists hate such a contention because it exposes their "sin you will and sin you must" deception so of course in their eyes (and yours) I am a blatant false teacher.

 

[Skinski7]

I received this today...

[video=youtube;f41x_S74cqA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f41x_S74cqA[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

Minsk Ceasefire Agreement

The first results of the negotiations.

1. The cease-fire with zero hours on February 15.

2. Ukrainian authorities remove their heavy weapons from the current front line, VSN (NAF, Novorossian Armed Forces) from the front lines of September.

3. A political settlement is possible only in direct negotiations between Kiev and People's Republic.

4. In Ukraine, reform must be passed "in the interests of Donbass".

5. According to the Russian Federation Debaltsevskaya grouping must lay down their arms, Kiev does not agree.

6. DNI (Donetsk) signed the document on the settlement under the guarantee of the Russian Federation, Germany and France. LC (Luhansk) has also signed.

7. Ukraine has until the end of 2015 to adopt a law on the special status of Donbass (it includes cross-border cooperation with the Russian Federation, self-determination in matters of language and amnesty for war veterans).

8. On the territory of Ukraine should be withdrawn all foreign mercenaries and foreign military equipment under the supervision of the OSCE.

9. Before February 19 a prisoner exchange to take place on the principle "all for all".

10. According to a statement of Poroshenko, he has agreed to release Savchenko.

11. Again, at the request of Poroshenko, no autonomy and federalization not on the table, Thus they are not agreed.

12. Ukraine can gain control of the border with Russia after the local elections, the adoption of the law on the special status of the Donetsk Basin and the consent of the newly elected authorities.

13. According to the head of the German Foreign Office, Germany, France and Russia did not sign the document adopted in Minsk and supported it in words.

14. DNR will require Ukraine to pay damages caused by hostilities.