CIA torture report paints picture of agency out of control
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K
If you read the report, you will see that these method don't even work all the time. The FBI interrogations proved to be more succesful than the CIA's method, at least in the case of Abu Zabaydu, who was subjected to waterboarding, nakedness, sleep depravation, and other tactics that I prefer not to mention with much detail. Only to later come to the conclusion that he didn't even have the information he was interrogated about.
Who are we to know the limits of how much a human can suffer? In my opinion, that's playing God. If we can't get justice by righteous means, then it's up to God to bring about justice. Before anyone says I'm defending terrorists, I'm not talking about punishment and I'm not saying agencies of justice shouldn't exhaust all their [legal] resources to get to the truth, but there are limits.
Who are we to know the limits of how much a human can suffer? In my opinion, that's playing God. If we can't get justice by righteous means, then it's up to God to bring about justice. Before anyone says I'm defending terrorists, I'm not talking about punishment and I'm not saying agencies of justice shouldn't exhaust all their [legal] resources to get to the truth, but there are limits.
C
The involvement of the American Psychological Association that most folk trust,
with their families.
Two short clips, less than 9 mins each. Click on Part Two on top left of display at end of Pt 1.
[video=youtube;mtpYy6dWxM8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtpYy6dWxM8&index=70&list=PL3AF22C6CDD7586 AB[/video]
with their families.
Two short clips, less than 9 mins each. Click on Part Two on top left of display at end of Pt 1.
[video=youtube;mtpYy6dWxM8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtpYy6dWxM8&index=70&list=PL3AF22C6CDD7586 AB[/video]
C
Correction - Part Two -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zswIwPFFl0&index=71&list=PL3AF22C6CDD7586AB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zswIwPFFl0&index=71&list=PL3AF22C6CDD7586AB
V
It's difficult to see how the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence could render such sweeping indictments of the agency and the EITs without ever having interviewed a single agent, or any past or current officers in NSA, DIA, FBI or considered evidence form Bush administration NSC members. Seems to me the SSC went into the effort of writing a report with preconceived notions and didn't want any facts getting in the way of a good rant.
Any session you can walk away from isn't torture, and countless agents, administration officials and military personnel have affirmed the information we got prevented at least a dozen, and probably more, subsequent mass attacks on U.S. soil or on U.S. territory or property overseas, not to mention preventing attacks in Britain and the Mideast.
Any session you can walk away from isn't torture, and countless agents, administration officials and military personnel have affirmed the information we got prevented at least a dozen, and probably more, subsequent mass attacks on U.S. soil or on U.S. territory or property overseas, not to mention preventing attacks in Britain and the Mideast.
What part of 'love your enemies' reads 'waterboard your enemies, deprive your enemies of sleep, beat your enemies, cause your enemies to die of hypothermia, rape your enemies wives and then slit their throats'? I can't think of anything more antithetical to Jesus of Nazareth's teachings.
I'm not even Christian and I find your comments utterly disgusting, vile and indefensible. Would you like to be kept awake for over 200 hours by repetitive loud, thrash-metal, or strobe lights, or cold water shock? Would you like to be force-fed through your anus without medical necessity? Would you like to be thrown on the ground, hands tied behind your back, cloth over your face then made to feel like you are drowning?
Many of these people weren't even convicted of crimes. They didn't have a trial. No hearing. No rights. No anything. Some weren't even valid terror suspects. Seems some of you Americans think you can just lift a man from the ground, accuse him of fairytales, then throw him in a dungeon to be tortured or die, and still call yourselves the World's Big Brother, or worse, 'Christian nation'.
Jesus, I imagine, would be sick at the connotation.
I'm not even Christian and I find your comments utterly disgusting, vile and indefensible. Would you like to be kept awake for over 200 hours by repetitive loud, thrash-metal, or strobe lights, or cold water shock? Would you like to be force-fed through your anus without medical necessity? Would you like to be thrown on the ground, hands tied behind your back, cloth over your face then made to feel like you are drowning?
Many of these people weren't even convicted of crimes. They didn't have a trial. No hearing. No rights. No anything. Some weren't even valid terror suspects. Seems some of you Americans think you can just lift a man from the ground, accuse him of fairytales, then throw him in a dungeon to be tortured or die, and still call yourselves the World's Big Brother, or worse, 'Christian nation'.
Jesus, I imagine, would be sick at the connotation.
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K
Hmmm the whole report is based on evidence and even testimonies of CIA agents. I don't see how that's not enough evidence? The CIA also didn't deny the report was false, so again, I don't see how this is a plot by the Senate. We need to take off our partisan glasses, and start supporting justice and truth, wherever it comes from. Agree?
WHOAH, I would not dare to redefine torture like that. You can walk away from a lot of things. You can walk away while your fingers are slowly being chopped off. So that's not torture? Not to mention psychological torture can have even worse effects than physical torture. I don't see where in the realm of Christianity we could support these atrocities. And again, if you read the report, it says that those methods didn't prove to be more effective than the FBI traditional interrogations. And even if they were (and that hasn't been proven), the fact that these practices are illegal should be enough not to support them.
The US Code already defines torture like this:
As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;
and(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.
Source: 18 U.S. Code § 2340 - Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute
To name a few of the torture methods that are talked about most in the news (though there are no doubt other methods):
Mock executions, stress positions, shackling of prisoners to the wall, sensory deprivation, etc. Music torture, which in fairness was disclosed publicly about a year or two ago to make it seem like the Gitmo torture program wasn't all that bad. Essentially they play annoying songs (ie: Christmas carols, kids TV show themes, etc.) for days straight. The most disturbing stuff though is the various sexual abuse stuff. The sad thing is the sexual abuse stuff isn't out of the ordinary. The US sadly has a reputation for that stuff.
Mock executions, stress positions, shackling of prisoners to the wall, sensory deprivation, etc. Music torture, which in fairness was disclosed publicly about a year or two ago to make it seem like the Gitmo torture program wasn't all that bad. Essentially they play annoying songs (ie: Christmas carols, kids TV show themes, etc.) for days straight. The most disturbing stuff though is the various sexual abuse stuff. The sad thing is the sexual abuse stuff isn't out of the ordinary. The US sadly has a reputation for that stuff.
There are many lesson to be learned from this. Diane Feinstein is no friend of common sense. She is a wicked political hack with no love for the USA.
The government does not go to church. The government is authorized to do things that civilians are not. Fighting wars is dirty business. Politicians often forget that wars are dirty and often suffer buyers remorse.
One lesson to take from all this is that there is no limit of mans brutality toward his fellow man. Some accomplish this with words and others with swords but the end is the same.
Jesus told His disciples to be as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents. To take a sword for defense and trust Him always. As well as lieth within you live peaceably with all men. Note that some men will not allow you to live in peace. When this is the case you must defend yourself and your family. The strong man abides in peace.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The government does not go to church. The government is authorized to do things that civilians are not. Fighting wars is dirty business. Politicians often forget that wars are dirty and often suffer buyers remorse.
One lesson to take from all this is that there is no limit of mans brutality toward his fellow man. Some accomplish this with words and others with swords but the end is the same.
Jesus told His disciples to be as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents. To take a sword for defense and trust Him always. As well as lieth within you live peaceably with all men. Note that some men will not allow you to live in peace. When this is the case you must defend yourself and your family. The strong man abides in peace.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It's widely discussed in the news, just look around at some articles. Within the actual report if you use the CNN release of the report (same link I posted earlier) to the upper righthand corner of the report layout should be a little search bar that you can type in key terms and it will find the pages for you. For instance if you search the term "Sexual abuse" page 11 should pop up detailing some episodes from threats to sexually abuse detainees' mothers to forcing them to walk around naked. There is worse, but I cannot even type them without feeling queasy.
EDIT: Also to make clear, I have a problem with all of this. Torture of any sort is unacceptable.
EDIT: Also to make clear, I have a problem with all of this. Torture of any sort is unacceptable.
V
Given the committee heard no witnesses, received no documents other than those admitted to other committees, and had no mandate to put such a grossly inept report out for public consumption, I have to wonder 1) How much of it can actually be believed, given they have no substantiation for their conclusions, and 2) Why should such an obvious politically motivated report be taken as valid by anyone who knows the facts -- or lack thereof -- behind it?
As I said the other day, any interrogation session one can walk away from did not involve torture.
As I said the other day, any interrogation session one can walk away from did not involve torture.
This report is true. Feinstein's speech (video and link provided on page 1) details how the report was compiled from known facts previously talked about in the Senate, from inter-governmental memos, and from evidence taken from the CIA themselves, etc. The report itself also describes its compilation. It was also compiled over a period of years, and published by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
In fact what we can know as the public is only a tiny fraction of what actually has been going on. It is noted the CIA destroyed many video tapes and documents of their torture and also for fact the 525-page summary is but a fraction of a 6,000 page report that is still classified.
If you don't desire to read the summary nor watch Feinstein's speech, this wikipedia page contains much of the same information as from those two more direct sources: Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is apparant FOX News is being used as the sock puppet to try to either cover up this report or elsewise doll up torture with ludicrous PC terms. They ought to go argue their case at the Hague where they belong.
In fact what we can know as the public is only a tiny fraction of what actually has been going on. It is noted the CIA destroyed many video tapes and documents of their torture and also for fact the 525-page summary is but a fraction of a 6,000 page report that is still classified.
If you don't desire to read the summary nor watch Feinstein's speech, this wikipedia page contains much of the same information as from those two more direct sources: Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is apparant FOX News is being used as the sock puppet to try to either cover up this report or elsewise doll up torture with ludicrous PC terms. They ought to go argue their case at the Hague where they belong.
V
See if you can find any precedent for a Senate Select Committee of any kind to issue a report without holding any hearings? It is unheard of, and was entirely politically motivated. As to truth, it concludes no actionable intelligence was gleaned from EIT interrogations, whereas the intelligence community has stated many, many times over the years that this piece of information or that nugget of data obtained during EIT interrogations resulted in "X" plot being foiled, well over 20 in total. That was reiterated over the last week. Also, I question having confidence in a report issued by only one side of a committee, the other side refusing to sign off on it. IF a Republican committee next year undertakes so biased an effort, I'm sure most Democrats will be crying "Foul!" the loudest for this exact same reason.
Noting again that any interrogation session from which the subject could walk away was not torture ...
Which we should count as fortunate, given I'm sure some of the more extremist among the Democrats wanted to release the entire study, flawed as it obviously was given the misleading information put out in the summary.
No thanks. Wikipedia is as unreliable as the Democrats on the SSC on Intelligence.
Clear indication you don't watch Fox News or you would know they've devoted more airtime to the pros and cons of this report than any other network, on-air or cable. But thanks for the reply. I just don't happen to agree with your conclusions or those of the committee. No offense intended, and I hope none taken.
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