A strong and independent woman VS a weak and dependent woman

[JonahLynx]

2. To the men - how would you feel about a partner who was as headstrong as Sandra Bullock? Would that make you feel threatened or would that add to your confidence?

Not familiar with her, but there's no way I would feel threatened lol. Headstrong sounds like fun arguments. And I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[TriviaGirl86]

Yet, I am not offended by anything you said...


I agree, jail time is harsh. How did you miss the fact that I am against it? How did you miss the fact that I am also against men "forcing themselves on their wives at any time"...???

Godly is what God prescribed in His Word.

I am not sure you are "getting the message" in the appropriate 'balanced' God-intended manner?


Please keep in mind that my posts are a response to specific statements you made, and not to everything you said as a whole. This is why I sometimes "extract" out of a post only the part to which I am addressing ( or, sometimes, highlight in some way the part to which I am addressing, in light of the entire post ) -- so that others will understand that I am addressing "that part" very specifically. Don't extrapolate what I say in one of these type posts out across everything you have said. Instead, keep it focused on the particular statement that it is addressing...

Does this make sense?

I am only going by what you wrote to me. Just as you misunderstood me I seem to have done the same to you. I guess we must both be human.

As far as not "getting it" in the appropriate "balanced" God-intended manner...I am not discussing it in such a way because I am responding to certain types of concerns. Those would be...worldly concerns. So I am responding in a more worldly way instead of bringing Bible quotes into it as many people like to do. I would be glad not to extrapolate anything as long as you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

I don't really consider myself a strong woman, but I will say this...

A "weaker" woman may submit to a man's every wish, and it may or may not have much meaning to him, because that's just her nature. But if a strong woman submits and follows her man, it's a deliberate choice, and therefore the honor to him is greater.

It's kind of like a complimentary man. You can find a man who flowers you with compliments and charm, but after a while it loses it's meaning. The man whose praise is more rare but also more sincere is priceless.

As for Sandra Bullock's two roles... I'm not sure I'd call Margaret from The Proposal simply "independent". She had major control and self-esteem issues, and was hard-hearted. There's a difference between being independent and being overly-ambitious and selfish. I love that movie though, because she does learn to soften, trust, and love selflessly in the end. It has been too long since I've seen The Blind Side for me to comment much on her character there. She seemed to manage her household and be in control of a lot of decisions (I don't see a problem with this), but I don't remember her defying her husband. Maybe I missed it?

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Not familiar with her, but there's no way I would feel threatened lol. Headstrong sounds like fun arguments. And I'm not being sarcastic.

I have though about it alot and for me it depends. If she's smarter than me, I would really enjoy spending time with a headstrong woman. If she is too far below me in the IQ deparment, no. If i wanted to go spend time with someone who was headstrong and dumb as a box of rocks, I would just ask Bill if I could take Hillary out for the evening.

 

[Shawn2516]

The word "submission" has been misused and abused. Ive seen it in two marriages in my family and in marriages as I traveled in ministry. Young men need to be taught correctly exactly what submission means. Some men have used that simple word to lord their authority over their wife. Submission is taught so poorly in the church.Then on top of that its almost impossible to find Godly marriage councilors. I saw so much abuse that was defended as "women should submit" that I promised myself I would never get married. Im married today because I found a mature partner that shares their life with me. We make decisions together,he doesnt tell me what we're going to do. We dont have "roles" we do what needs to be done around the house "together".Im allowed to have an opinion,as is he.We make the best decision or we compromise. We need each other,we rely on each other. The church needs to have far better teaching on marriage and submission then it does. You say women refuse to submit,I'd have to ask what your idea of submission is?

You do not have to tell me about the abuse from men who use "submission" as a weapon to get their way. My father was this type, although he claims to be a christian, he used the submission line on my mother and he used "obey thy parents" on me. It was quite a evil act to watch, someone using something as holy as the bible to twist it in a way so they could commit acts of evil.

I think women are scared of submission because it basically means slavery to them, but if you do research, it does not mean that at all. Its a military term implying rank. If you have a general and a soldier, the soldier must submit to the general, but that does not make him a slave to the general. They are both of equal value.

But to be honest, I really don't care if women submit to men or not and for 2 reasons why.

The first reason is no one can make a woman submit to anything, except under extreme cases of abusers. If a woman does not want to submit to the authority of a man, she won't, so there is no point in bickering about it.

The second reason is she will have to answer to God for why she didn't follow his word.

I guess I would say ultimately to women, don't expect your men to lead, if your not willing to follow.

 

[TriviaGirl86]

You don't have a argument from me here. I support that view, but my only word of advice is that you should still be cautious. I could go around calling myself a Nazi, and then use the same line you used, but people's view of me would not be different. They would still think of me as some evil holocaust supporter.



I could care less what people think of me for calling myself something. That's on them and not me. Also, if I call myself a Christian to a lot of people they would think worse of me. Should I stop calling myself that?



You're right and women of that time had every right to defend themselves. That is not this time. This time, its men who are trying to defend themselves from the oppression's of our current day Matriarchy. It reminds me of black people who cry about the oppression from 200 years ago as if it was happening today. Even though today they aren't picking cotton, being called Tobi, or getting slashes on their backs, they still have a mindset that is in the past. Today we have a black president, which would of been unthinkable 200 years ago.



I would be careful with that type of thinking. You realize that as a white male you really can't understand where either group is coming from? I realize you will chock this up to liberal thinking but I can tell you I am far from a liberal. It's easy to say things are over when it's not a festering wound on your culture. Also, the aftermath of such hate does not go away easily, it is kind of ignorant to say so. Racism and sexism is very ingrained in the US mindset and although it isn't as apparent as outright slavery it is apparent in people's attitudes toward minorities and women. For example, studies have been done that show women are less likely to get hired for demanding jobs (I realize motherhood is an issue, but only because even when a mother works she still does more chores than her husband) and a study has shown that a large percentage of white people think black people are lazier than them, as a race. So I refuse to put on rose-colored glasses and think people can't improve their attitudes toward one another. Isn't that what being a Christian is all about? Working to better oneself and through doing so being a light unto the world?


But feminism has already achieved its goals. Women can vote, women can own property, women can be the president of the United States. The new feminism is just now a morphed version of a new Nazi Regime that supports the oppression and hatred of men. The past is over and already dealt with, but what is not over is the time of our day, in which women have more rights than men, not less. Women have 100% of all reproduction rights, and men in college don't even have due process for false rape allegations. Men are pretty much being mocked, ridiculed and snuffed out under this new "women's equality" movement that excludes men completely. I'm not pulling you in and claiming your one of these feminists, but this is the general movement as a whole, that women support. It has ended in the death of over 50 million unborn children (more deaths than WW2), it has helped produce more single women and fatherlerss homes than any Dictator could ever hope for. It also, claims men are responsible for all the ills of the world.



Has feminism achieved its goals? Can women walk around at night without fear of being attacked? Do women earn the same amount of money for the same amount of work as men? Are women's beauty standards way more restrictive and rigorous, do little girls on average have much lower self-esteem than boys? Do women get harassed when they enter the military or male-dominated professions? Are people in this country much more likely to base a woman's merits on her looks and not her skills, achievements, personality (politics being a huge example of this)? Do feminine roles still get belittled and considered to be inferior to masculines roles (I.E. a mother stays at home, well she doesn't really do anything...she doesn't work)? Do women still get way worse threats on the internet when they are involved in gaming or commentary of any kind? Do women get called mean-spirited names when they are opinionated as opposed to men, who are expected to be authoritative? Do we still parade women around like pieces of meat and then deride those women for choosing to work in the professions they do (btw, NFL cheerleaders don't even make minimum wage and I highly doubt that the focus of any beauty pageant is scholarly based). Do adult women, such as myself, struggle with pride in their gender because there are few examples of women in history that did much of note?
The only men I have heard of getting mocked are those who behave like children, those who have all ready done something stupid (the anonymous internet haters being like a plague unto our houses...the male groups that openly bash women online and there are thousands of them...)


You don't have to believe a word i'm saying, and you can just chalk it all up to me being bitter, but I am telling you, a backlash against feminism from men has already been building. You can choose to ignore it, but I would say in the next 10-20 years, a woman who calls herself a feminist is going to be guaranteeing herself not to ever have a future husband. Men are going to be avoiding them like the plague. Infact, a lot of men already are.



Again, I will state this...not every woman's goal in life is to have a man. You may take this as feminist nonsense, but why accept singleness in men if you can't in women? Many great historical thinkers never married and they got a lot of work done if you ask me. Doesn't Paul also state in 1 Corinthians that marriage is not necessary, that we should avoid it if we can?



I am talking about women, but i'm not blaming women 100% for anything. I know men have their own part to play in the misery in this world, but I also know women love to play victims and escape being responsible for their choices. You can take a regular mother who kills her children and watch the media and women in the comment section chalk up the deaths of those children to the mothers mental state, not the actual mother herself. The mother is a victim of her state. Let a man kill his kids and chalk it up him being a victim for his mental state, and you already know what type of responses he would get. He's a monster, he is this, that, hang him from a tree. When a woman does it, everyone looks for some external source for a reason why she cannot truly be a killer, because I guess that would go against the whole mothers can't be murderers and every girls deserves X, Y, Z non-sense.



Women don't love playing victims as you like to think. Being a victim is hard to take, it means admitting that you were dominated by another group for centuries, that the reason there are few historical women to look up to is because we weren't allowed the same opportunities as men. That if a woman did anything of note, she was overshadowed by her male counterpart or brushed aside (check out Judith Leyster's paintings...many scholars insisted they were done by Hans Holbein).
It sucks being a woman sometimes. I grew up as a young girl hating my gender. I was sad that whenever I took history in school all I learned about were men's accomplishments and I had heard comments made that men are superior because of this very reason. That bred a deep self-hatred in me. Being a woman is not easy, it never has been. "Playing the victim" is really just acknowledgement of things that happened and not a love of being vulnerable. Please...



Feminists love men? Since when? Men certainly don't feel the love from feminists. I hate to say this but I have to.. another typical response of men just hating women. Do you really think when a boy grows up, he just goes "wow, I can't WAIT to hate women!". That's why men get married and play the provider. You just gotta give women you hate money you know, and make sure their well fed, because heck, if they starve to death, how can you keep on hating them? Do you get my point? Men don't hate women, they love them. Yes, you get your typical criminals, and we got a special place called prison reserved for them, but the majority of men do not hate women. How many christian men on this forum do you see blasting and bombarding women about how much they hate them and can't stand them? I do not see this woman-bashing but I also think girls are pretty sensitive to anything critical of them, so they take it that way.



If a man is in a relationship and starts to think of money as "his money" that he selflessly doles out to his helpless wife, what a dysfunctional relationship it is. God tells us not to think of any money as belonging to us, as if we did anything without his grace. So why act like men bestow the gift of money on women like some sort of slot-machine deity? Also many women work nowadays, there are very few one-income households anymore. Personally, I've gotten blasted by Christian men before who hated me as soon as I called myself a feminist...apparently people do judge me just like you said. Misogyny is just as rampant as you think misandry is, except on the misogyny side...women also hate other women a lot more than the reverse. Women are taught to compete with each other and therefore think they are more appealing if they "don't like women". I've actually had other women tell me this, like I'm not supposed to be offended. So, as a woman I can tell you that...I am aware of how much it sucks to be female and I won't be sympathizing a whole lot with your viewpoint anytime soon, though I do believe that there are double-standards aimed at males.



I would write more but I have to go now to a meeting with my start-up company. I'll come back and respond to whatever you have written later.

I just wanted to get that out there. I could apologize for seeming overbearing but what's the point, people will think what they want about me.

 

[PoetMary]

I guess I would say ultimately to women, don't expect your men to lead, if your not willing to follow.

Here's the problem I see inherent in this idea (for Christian men). If someone else opts out of their ethical duty, it doesn't give us permission to opt out of ours.

For example, plenty of women have been told for plenty of centuries to submit to their husbands even if he is a poor leader. There's even a biblical basis for this (indirectly), in that there are verses about how a Christian wife should be submissive and loving to her non-Christian husband so that he may be won to the Lord. (The obvious reasoning here being that a non-Christian man wouldn't have the presence of the Holy Spirit and the ability to love his wife as Christ loves the church).

In terms of marital duty, there doesn't seem to be an opt-out option for anyone. So, a wife who is married to a poor leader is meant to submit to her husband, and a husband who is married to a poor "submitter" is meant to continue to sacrificially love his wife. (Hosea, btw, is a good example of this). I think in both cases the virtue of the sacrificial act is a means for influencing the other partner. Of course, the presumption here is that it will all be done in love (it's not effectual to use "submission" or "love" as a means of manipulation).

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I think women are scared of submission because it basically means slavery to them, but if you do research, it does not mean that at all. Its a military term implying rank. If you have a general and a soldier, the soldier must submit to the general, but that does not make him a slave to the general. They are both of equal value.

But to be honest, I really don't care if women submit to men or not and for 2 reasons why.

The first reason is no one can make a woman submit to anything, except under extreme cases of abusers. If a woman does not want to submit to the authority of a man, she won't, so there is no point in bickering about it.

The second reason is she will have to answer to God for why she didn't follow his word.

I guess I would say ultimately to women, don't expect your men to lead, if your not willing to follow.

Not only that, but Biblical leadership is in the sense as treat your lady as you would yourself and if necessary give your life for her, as Christ did for the Church. There are a lot men capable of that in the Church.....but lets be real here, there are also very many who are not mature enough to act that way. I do not personally want that kind of responsibility if I can avoid it. Being a husband or a father doing everything the right way is very very difficult.

 

[TriviaGirl86]

You do not have to tell me about the abuse from men who use "submission" as a weapon to get their way. My father was this type, although he claims to be a christian, he used the submission line on my mother and he used "obey thy parents" on me. It was quite a evil act to watch, someone using something as holy as the bible to twist it in a way so they could commit acts of evil.

I think women are scared of submission because it basically means slavery to them, but if you do research, it does not mean that at all. Its a military term implying rank. If you have a general and a soldier, the soldier must submit to the general, but that does not make him a slave to the general. They are both of equal value.

But to be honest, I really don't care if women submit to men or not and for 2 reasons why.

The first reason is no one can make a woman submit to anything, except under extreme cases of abusers. If a woman does not want to submit to the authority of a man, she won't, so there is no point in bickering about it.

The second reason is she will have to answer to God for why she didn't follow his word.

I guess I would say ultimately to women, don't expect your men to lead, if your not willing to follow.

I like this post of yours. I agree that submission is not slavery. I used to struggle with this concept until I talked to other Christians and found out that God wanted to protect women too. He wanted a woman to marry a man worthy of the respect it takes to submit. I know that if I am truly in love with someone, enough to marry him, I would need to respect him a heck of a lot. Which means I won't have much trouble submitting to him.

On a side-note, women are humans too which means we will struggle with what God wants us to do. Just as men may struggle with always loving their wives, it will be a struggle for women to submit. Humans are notoriously bad at submitting, especially to God's will...much less another human. So, to the men out there...be patient with women because we may struggle with things but if our hearts are in the right place, God will help us come around.

 

[GaryA]

I am only going by what you wrote to me. Just as you misunderstood me I seem to have done the same to you. I guess we must both be human.

As far as not "getting it" in the appropriate "balanced" God-intended manner...I am not discussing it in such a way because I am responding to certain types of concerns. Those would be...worldly concerns. So I am responding in a more worldly way instead of bringing Bible quotes into it as many people like to do. I would be glad not to extrapolate anything as long as you understand where I'm coming from.

"No harm done..."

 

[GaryA]

The man whose praise is more rare but also more sincere is priceless.

Yes - it is the sincerity that matters - however often or rare.

 

[Roh_Chris]

Thank you everybody for your replies.

I understand what LiJo, JesusLives and GLR have said about needing to be strong and independent in order to continue with their lives (career, raising kids, etc.).

A "weaker" woman may submit to a man's every wish, and it may or may not have much meaning to him, because that's just her nature. But if a strong woman submits and follows her man, it's a deliberate choice, and therefore the honor to him is greater.

I feel that this quote is the best answer to this question. I also agree with what Shouryu, wwjd and the others have mentioned - that, as long as a man and woman both have their focus on God, the rest will fall into place.

As for myself, I am not someone who is looking for a weak and dependent woman. Coming from an inherently patriarchal society, I have surprised many people with my views on this, so that is why I wanted to bring it up on this forum. I agree with what GLR says, because, it becomes more honourable when a strong woman chooses to follow her man - he has earned her trust and her respect, and that speaks a lot about his qualities.

Once again, thank you everybody for responding to my question.

 

[Roh_Chris]

As for Sandra Bullock's two roles... I'm not sure I'd call Margaret from The Proposal simply "independent". She had major control and self-esteem issues, and was hard-hearted. There's a difference between being independent and being overly-ambitious and selfish. I love that movie though, because she does learn to soften, trust, and love selflessly in the end. It has been too long since I've seen The Blind Side for me to comment much on her character there. She seemed to manage her household and be in control of a lot of decisions (I don't see a problem with this), but I don't remember her defying her husband. Maybe I missed it?

No, you didn't miss it, GLR. I was just talking about the part where she was better equipped to manage her household and where she had the final say in many of the decisions. Perhaps, on the other side, she had to don the dominant role because her husband wasn't up for it. I wouldn't know the reasons behind that (and, c'mon, it is just a film so we cannot read too much into the characters), but you have made a beautiful point with your statement about a strong woman choosing to submit to her husband.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I don't really consider myself a strong woman, but I will say this...

Not really buying that Gracie . I think your being overly humble there. To be fair here, not just you. I don't think you would ever come out and say your a strong woman due to your humble nature. But neither would lil_christian, Rachel20, RachelSedge, misscriss, JesusLoves, Abing.....the list could go on (If I didnt mention you, its because I'm lazy, not because I forgot about you ).

You all are obviously very strong Christian women. Give yourselves some more credit

 

[TriviaGirl86]

Not really buying that Gracie . I think your being overly humble there. To be fair here, not just you. I don't think you would ever come out and say your a strong woman due to your humble nature. But neither would lil_christian, Rachel20, RachelSedge, misscriss, JesusLoves, Abing.....the list could go on (If I didnt mention you, its because I'm lazy, not because I forgot about you ).

You all are obviously very strong Christian women. Give yourselves some more credit

The strongest woman being TriviaGirl86 obviously.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm receiving the Nobel prize for humility and musnt be late...

 

[Donkeyfish07]

The strongest woman being TriviaGirl86 obviously.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm receiving the Nobel prize for humility and musnt be late...

Ha ha, you do happen to win the adorable sarcasm cup of 2015....unless someone tops you by new years

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Ha ha, you do happen to win the adorable sarcasm cup of 2015....unless someone tops you by new years

Wait, there's a sarcasm cup? How did I miss this?


Is there a most-competitive competitor competition? I NEED THIS TO BE A THING.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Wait, there's a sarcasm cup? How did I miss this?


Is there a most-competitive competitor competition? I NEED THIS TO BE A THING.

Yep, the sarcasm cup is a thing. Arwen is the undisputed Queen but her disappearance has left a vaccum. I miss her deeply .

As far as most competitive competitor, you are the undisputed Queen but Rachelsedge is a very close runner up. You are also the Queen of Epic failure. So you are in first place twice

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

No, you didn't miss it, GLR. I was just talking about the part where she was better equipped to manage her household and where she had the final say in many of the decisions. Perhaps, on the other side, she had to don the dominant role because her husband wasn't up for it.

Well - and this is still me not remembering the movie all that well - often in marriage, the husband and wife will work out the best possible plan as far as who controls what. For instance, when I was married, I handled most of the money, the child-rearing, the bill paying, and other decisions of that nature because I was good at those things, and my husband didn't want to be concerned with them. As a helpmeet, these were things he preferred I handle. I see that in Proverbs 31 as well. A woman in Bible times and throughout history often managed the household which included all of the details of the home, from managing servants, bills and money to buying and selling investments. I think it's something a husband and wife just need to work out for their own marriage according to their gifts, interests and comfort levels. She is only over-controlling when she insists on controlling things that her husband would rather be controlling himself, in my view.

Not really buying that Gracie . I think your being overly humble there. To be fair here, not just you. I don't think you would ever come out and say your a strong woman due to your humble nature. But neither would lil_christian, Rachel20, RachelSedge, misscriss, JesusLoves, Abing.....the list could go on (If I didnt mention you, its because I'm lazy, not because I forgot about you ).

You all are obviously very strong Christian women. Give yourselves some more credit

Thank you Donkeyfish. I guess what I meant was that I don't consider myself a controlling overly-independent woman. What you are describing above... I'll definitely take it if you think it applies.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Thank you Donkeyfish. I guess what I meant was that I don't consider myself a controlling overly-independent woman. What you are describing above... I'll definitely take it if you think it applies.

Na Grace, you are definitely not controlling. But certainly strong. In fact, you are so silent during disputes of any kind most of the time that I am 100% certain that you usually know best when someone is in error but you say nothing. You know you see the situation better, but you still say nothing. That's a sign of wisdom (which I definitely lack in that regard, I open my mouth too hastily far too often). It took me probably about 8 months to even figure that much out about you, because you just don't say much about a lot of things. And I know you know this. There is no way you are that ignorant about yourself but you would never admit it .

Only time I remember you ever disputing anything actually, was when we had that one dude or dudette that was insisting worshipping God with instruments was of the Devil. But that was so stupid everyone just wanted to facepalm and say "WHAT IS THIS?!!! I DON'T EVEN!!!".