Christian Culture or Something else...

[Liamson]

Pride: a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc

I believe Pride is root of all evil.

I have been thinking for a few weeks about this thing that has been tugging on my mind for a while now. I was just at A high school 10 year class reunion, for the class ahead of mine. I was told that I am smart handsome amazing great blah blah blah and I was also asked why I wasn't married. Normally I would have talked about "what happened" and "what went wrong" but not this time.... I told them I have not found any woman anywhere who is willing to go with me through everything. Which isn't entirely true but, with one exception, it is the truth.

Based on this conversation and my own experience I have come up with a couple of questions that shed light on the points I'm trying to make.

1. What is the difference between American Christian Cultural Socioeconomic expectations and Those outside of the realm of Evangelical Christianity? (specifically as it relates to dating and marriage)

2. What does a Christian woman hope the aspirations are of someone who is pursuing her?

3. Why is security more important for Christian women to have than Non-Christian women?

4. What is the Christian Woman's source of Social Validation?

5. Is Building a Family a higher priority to Christian women than finding a Love that is True?

 

[Jullianna]

Pride: a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc

I believe Pride is root of all evil.

I have been thinking for a few weeks about this thing that has been tugging on my mind for a while now. I was just at A high school 10 year class reunion, for the class ahead of mine. I was told that I am smart handsome amazing great blah blah blah and I was also asked why I wasn't married. Normally I would have talked about "what happened" and "what went wrong" but not this time.... I told them I have not found any woman anywhere who is willing to go with me through everything. Which isn't entirely true but, with one exception, it is the truth.

Based on this conversation and my own experience I have come up with a couple of questions that shed light on the points I'm trying to make.

1. What is the difference between American Christian Cultural Socioeconomic expectations and Those outside of the realm of Evangelical Christianity? (specifically as it relates to dating and marriage)

I would think that christians would expect a mature christian to be a good steward and have a good work ethic, no matter what his/her job (since we are supposed to do all things as unto the Lord), but would understand that what a person does or doesn't possess has no bearing upon the value of that person, especially since Jesus said: "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." (in both Matthew and Luke).

2. What does a Christian woman hope the aspirations are of someone who is pursuing her?

I can't say that this has ever been something I've really thought much about when I've been interested in someone. I do know that there are extremes to be avoided at both ends of the spectrum when it comes to aspirations. Laziness is not something most people respect or admire, but I also know first hand how self-destructive and relationship destructive being an obsessive overacheiver can be as well. For me, it's about WHO he is, not what he does.

3. Why is security more important for Christian women to have than Non-Christian women?

Are you talking about financial security? If so, I'm not sure that it is more important to christians than non-christians. Our security is not in what we have/don't have in the way of finances. Our security is in Christ.

4. What is the Christian Woman's source of Social Validation?

I would hope that, at some point, we would learn to care more about what God thinks of us than about social validation. Seems to me that if, with His guidance, we are living a life that is pleasing to Him (the Prov 31 woman for example), there would be much in our lives worthy of respect and little for society to condemn, though we know that mockery from non-christians on some level is always to be expected, but not to be of major concern.

5. Is Building a Family a higher priority to Christian women than finding a Love that is True?

Trying to build a family without love would be merely breeding in my book. Many women do want children, but I can't imagine that being a higher priority than loving and being loved by their father.

Having said that, if a woman already has a child, raising her child will probably be more important to her than her love life. Once a child is grown and building a life of his/her own, she will feel more free to pursue her own happiness in that regard.

 

[Liamson]

Trying to build a family without love would be merely breeding in my book. Many women do want children, but I can't imagine that being a higher priority than loving and being loved by their father.

Having said that, if a woman already has a child, raising her child will probably be more important to her than her love life. Once a child is grown and building a life of his/her own, she will feel more free to pursue her own happiness in that regard.

Thank you. =)

 

[Ritter]

1. What is the difference between American Christian Cultural Socioeconomic expectations and Those outside of the realm of Evangelical Christianity? (specifically as it relates to dating and marriage)

American Christians tend to claim they have a certain disdain for tradition when they are,themselves, traditionalists.

2. What does a Christian woman hope the aspirations are of someone who is pursuing her?

Ultimately? I guess the dimestore answer is that her man is willing to do the Lord's work. However, there are too many particulars among Christian women. Some are stronger than others and that would affect their taste.

3. Why is security more important for Christian women to have than Non-Christian women?

Again, it goes back to traditionalism. The picket fence would be a part of their being either way.

4. What is the Christian Woman's source of Social Validation?

Absolutely no idea.

5. Is Building a Family a higher priority to Christian women than finding a Love that is True?

I don't think most of them see this as an either/or scenario.

 

[PopClick]

1. Motivation is a big difference. Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own.
2. Depends on the definition of "Christian". If you use this one: "exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike", then she should hope that his aspirations are the same as hers: to be as much like Jesus as possible.
3. Generalizations are not nearly as accurate as your post seems to suggest. But this is one place where I don't think generalizations apply at all.
4. If a person wants their validity to come from a society such as this... they have a problem.
5. Personally, building a family is not something that even remotely appeals to me, but "finding a love that is true" isn't high on my list of priorities, either. I would hope that nobody is so eager to build a family that they are willing to build it with the wrong person.

 

[Liamson]

1. Motivation is a big difference. Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own.
2. Depends on the definition of "Christian". If you use this one: "exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike", then she should hope that his aspirations are the same as hers: to be as much like Jesus as possible.
3. Generalizations are not nearly as accurate as your post seems to suggest. But this is one place where I don't think generalizations apply at all.
4. If a person wants their validity to come from a society such as this... they have a problem.
5. Personally, building a family is not something that even remotely appeals to me, but "finding a love that is true" isn't high on my list of priorities, either. I would hope that nobody is so eager to build a family that they are willing to build it with the wrong person.

This is more or less what I thought I would get more of. I liked Ritter's "picket fences" idea though too.

Like take your #1 " Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own." -(so long as it ends in picket fences.)

#2 is where I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too. To be like Jesus is to give up everything and pursue a purpose with everything. I kind of want to go away, for a long time. To places where no one else does but, I want to fall in love and do it as a team. I'm not a big family person in general.

#3 Ritter's ideas about Tradition being a big part of the picture hit the nail on the head for me.

#4 I think Validation lends itself to HOW we spend our money. I can afford nice things. I don't own nice things and I don't spend my money on ways to get into Debt. The expectation is that I should be buying a house but with the money I could spend on a house (interest included), I could go anywhere. Big weddings, fancy cars, and just in general the appearance of success is all pretty silly to me. BUT if I want a wife, (especially a Christian one) I think I must compromise what I believe. I think its a Pride thing and I don't believe in the kind of love that stems from embodying the appearance of something I am not.

#5 HERE, where I live now, it is as if the purpose of Marriage is to provide for a family. Its not about Love, Companionship, Passion, Partnership or conquering the world. Its about being stable and family oriented. So whenever people ask me questions about "so and so" its like Chemo-therapy, I want to pull my hair out and go throw-up in a corner somewhere.

 

[Ritter]

This is more or less what I thought I would get more of. I liked Ritter's "picket fences" idea though too.

Like take your #1 " Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own." -(so long as it ends in picket fences.)

#2 is where I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too. To be like Jesus is to give up everything and pursue a purpose with everything. I kind of want to go away, for a long time. To places where no one else does but, I want to fall in love and do it as a team. I'm not a big family person in general.

#3 Ritter's ideas about Tradition being a big part of the picture hit the nail on the head for me.

#4 I think Validation lends itself to HOW we spend our money. I can afford nice things. I don't own nice things and I don't spend my money on ways to get into Debt. The expectation is that I should be buying a house but with the money I could spend on a house (interest included), I could go anywhere. Big weddings, fancy cars, and just in general the appearance of success is all pretty silly to me. BUT if I want a wife, (especially a Christian one) I think I must compromise what I believe. I think its a Pride thing and I don't believe in the kind of love that stems from embodying the appearance of something I am not.

#5 HERE, where I live now, it is as if the purpose of Marriage is to provide for a family. Its not about Love, Companionship, Passion, Partnership or conquering the world. Its about being stable and family oriented. So whenever people ask me questions about "so and so" its like Chemo-therapy, I want to pull my hair out and go throw-up in a corner somewhere.

I'm just going with what you'll find statistically significant in any society. People who feel comfortable with tradition tend to abound. The science of MBTI is fun, easily applied, yet seriously flawed, but that a vast majority of the population feels comfortable with the known and simply wants to live responsibly and let the idiots have their time is a concept easily observed and manipulated should one be evil enough to do so.

It really isn't such a bad thing in my opinion. Think of it this way Liamson: you wouldn't be the special person you are if everyone was interested in living life to the same extent as you. I'm sure it is frustrating, but you can wear it as a badge of honor, perhaps guide others to live life the same way like the protagonist in Chesterton's Manalive . Pretty applicable book in your case.

 

[Snackersmom]

People question me if I'll ever get married and raise a family as well, but that doesn't affect how I feel about the matter: I will get married if I know that's what God wants me to do. Period. I can't imagine a marriage without love, companionship, passion, and partnership (world-conquering is optional ), but my life isn't focused on finding those things. I've already found the truest love on the planet, the love of a husband would be secondary to that (but I'm sure nonetheless awesome, don't get me wrong ).

I can somewhat sympathize with your frustrations in finding "The One", but it seems as if you are taking your frustrations out on Christian women in general, particularly those who are family-oriented. Please stop.

Or, perhaps the motive behind the creation of this thread was the hope that a Christian lady would see your musings and go "My goodness! His priorities are identical to mine! I'm frustrated by all the prideful Christian men who just want to provide me with a stable environment in which to raise the children I don't want! I shall drop him a p.m. and we'll be off to conquer the world together!" (actually, that's kind of the impression I get about your motives, hehe ). In that case, then kudos to your creativity in disguising your personal ad as an intellectual debate, but I fear that your broad-sweeping generalizations are doing more harm than good. Just an observation from a fellow hopeless romantic

Disclaimer: My personal aspirations embody neither your ideal, nor the generalized ideal by which you are so frustrated; I'm not drawn to picket-fences OR world travel. I don't know if that makes my ramblings any more objective, but there they are, take 'em or leave 'em .

 

[JimJimmers]

Liamson, I just wanted to say, every time I see this:

I think of this:

I know that is off-topic, but I thought it was worth a mention

 

[PopClick]

This is more or less what I thought I would get more of. I liked Ritter's "picket fences" idea though too.

Like take your #1 " Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own." -(so long as it ends in picket fences.)

#2 is where I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too. To be like Jesus is to give up everything and pursue a purpose with everything. I kind of want to go away, for a long time. To places where no one else does but, I want to fall in love and do it as a team. I'm not a big family person in general.

#3 Ritter's ideas about Tradition being a big part of the picture hit the nail on the head for me.

#4 I think Validation lends itself to HOW we spend our money. I can afford nice things. I don't own nice things and I don't spend my money on ways to get into Debt. The expectation is that I should be buying a house but with the money I could spend on a house (interest included), I could go anywhere. Big weddings, fancy cars, and just in general the appearance of success is all pretty silly to me. BUT if I want a wife, (especially a Christian one) I think I must compromise what I believe. I think its a Pride thing and I don't believe in the kind of love that stems from embodying the appearance of something I am not.

#5 HERE, where I live now, it is as if the purpose of Marriage is to provide for a family. Its not about Love, Companionship, Passion, Partnership or conquering the world. Its about being stable and family oriented. So whenever people ask me questions about "so and so" its like Chemo-therapy, I want to pull my hair out and go throw-up in a corner somewhere.

And this is what I thought I'd get in response. More generalizations.

Like take your #1 " Christians are expected to seek God's will, and not their own." -(so long as it ends in picket fences.)

I never said anything about picket fences, so why you added that part is beyond me.

BUT if I want a wife, (especially a Christian one) I think I must compromise what I believe. I think its a Pride thing and I don't believe in the kind of love that stems from embodying the appearance of something I am not.

I agree about pride being an issue here. But maybe not in the way that you'd guess.

#5 HERE, where I live now, it is as if the purpose of Marriage is to provide for a family. Its not about Love, Companionship, Passion, Partnership or conquering the world. Its about being stable and family oriented. So whenever people ask me questions about "so and so" its like Chemo-therapy, I want to pull my hair out and go throw-up in a corner somewhere.

I think your chemotherapy parallel would be particularly offensive to those who have actually endured chemo. That's all I'm going to say.

 

[Liamson]

People question me if I'll ever get married and raise a family as well, but that doesn't affect how I feel about the matter: I will get married if I know that's what God wants me to do. Period. I can't imagine a marriage without love, companionship, passion, and partnership (world-conquering is optional ), but my life isn't focused on finding those things. I've already found the truest love on the planet, the love of a husband would be secondary to that (but I'm sure nonetheless awesome, don't get me wrong ).

I can somewhat sympathize with your frustrations in finding "The One", but it seems as if you are taking your frustrations out on Christian women in general, particularly those who are family-oriented. Please stop.

Or, perhaps the motive behind the creation of this thread was the hope that a Christian lady would see your musings and go "My goodness! His priorities are identical to mine! I'm frustrated by all the prideful Christian men who just want to provide me with a stable environment in which to raise the children I don't want! I shall drop him a p.m. and we'll be off to conquer the world together!" (actually, that's kind of the impression I get about your motives, hehe ). In that case, then kudos to your creativity in disguising your personal ad as an intellectual debate, but I fear that your broad-sweeping generalizations are doing more harm than good. Just an observation from a fellow hopeless romantic

Disclaimer: My personal aspirations embody neither your ideal, nor the generalized ideal by which you are so frustrated; I'm not drawn to picket-fences OR world travel. I don't know if that makes my ramblings any more objective, but there they are, take 'em or leave 'em .

well... I think I'm more frustrated about Pride and Expectations vs. Love and Obedience than I am on about wanting to see the world. I'm not much for tourism (or touristic missions either, another thread for another time). Jesus was the master of humility and purpose. I feel like here in America, its as if we hope that will come AFTER we have had our dessert. We have the means as a people to do great and wonderful things but, I'm poking around trying to figure out what is keeping us from letting go.

And this is what I thought I'd get in response. More generalizations.

I never said anything about picket fences, so why you added that part is beyond me.


I agree about pride being an issue here. But maybe not in the way that you'd guess.


I think your chemotherapy parallel would be particularly offensive to those who have actually endured chemo. That's all I'm going to say.

Offensive, really?

I think Pride is a huge issue in the way I'm suggesting. Annanias and Sapphira kept what they promised they would give because they were too proud to let it go. I'm not saying people should sell everything and give it to the poor, Jesus only told that to one guy. But what I am saying is that the expectations are that life will be safe, nothing will be asked of us that is too much and nothing will be a major sacrifice for the Kingdom.

Our church's Mission trip was to Manchester England to paint the side of a College, so I changed churches. Only to discover that the next church frowned up ME and wanted me to conform to their idea of what a young single man should be. So I went back to the old church, where they don't tell me the biblical reasons for buying a house.

In your post before you talked about not wanting social validation in this society we live in. Well where I live, everyone I know attends church. Everyone I know is pretty much all Christian, and yet they all do what the people who have gone before them do. So yes, broad sweeping generalizations and stereotypes fit quite well.


And Ritter, blame the SJ's. They are literally EVERYWHERE and they control EVERYTHING

 

[kayem77]

I am currently reading a book called Revolution in World Missions. Christianity in America and the Western World is not all there is. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that I can be a Christian here and not get killed, I love the fact that the US has stablised a government who holds a somewhat ''Christian constituton'' (which I doubt will last a lot longer) ...but oh boy how much we need to learn from our fellow Christians in the East. We have A LOT, and we have MORE than we need.

Having said that, I would be a hypocrite if I said I don't have my own expectations. I'm used to having a comfortable life, maybe not luxurious, but comfortable and even more than comfortable. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so used to it, but I am, and I like it.... I try not to be so attached to my possesions though. I also believe God blesses people or countries so that we can share those blessings. The way my heart sees it and as cliche as it sounds, Jesus is the answer to all those questions.

Security? comes from Christ. Validation? Christ and the way you share Christ. Socioeconomic expectations? If you happen, by God's will, to live and work in a wealthy country you're probably gonna have a decent life and it's your obligation to help others with that blessing.If you happen to live and work in a Third-Second World country, remember that Christ didn't have a bed to lay down his head and you're actually living like most of the world lives. Building a family is not my higuest aspiration although I do want to have one someday, finding True Love would be a higuer priority than that (and God remains the first). I hope the aspirations of someone interested in me are Christ-centered, I don't know how, but just Christ-centered.

 

[PopClick]

Offensive, really?

I think Pride is a huge issue in the way I'm suggesting. Annanias and Sapphira kept what they promised they would give because they were too proud to let it go. I'm not saying people should sell everything and give it to the poor, Jesus only told that to one guy. But what I am saying is that the expectations are that life will be safe, nothing will be asked of us that is too much and nothing will be a major sacrifice for the Kingdom.

Our church's Mission trip was to Manchester England to paint the side of a College, so I changed churches. Only to discover that the next church frowned up ME and wanted me to conform to their idea of what a young single man should be. So I went back to the old church, where they don't tell me the biblical reasons for buying a house.

In your post before you talked about not wanting social validation in this society we live in. Well where I live, everyone I know attends church. Everyone I know is pretty much all Christian, and yet they all do what the people who have gone before them do. So yes, broad sweeping generalizations and stereotypes fit quite well.


And Ritter, blame the SJ's. They are literally EVERYWHERE and they control EVERYTHING

Yes, offensive. Really.

Contentment and complacency are not the same things. I would think that, on some level at least, non-Christians are more willing to get out of their comfort zone, because they have a feeling that they haven't found what they're looking for in life. They don't have as much of a comfort zone. They are not content. And no, I'm not suggesting that you're not saved. I also am more "comfortable" when I'm out of my comfort zone... if I even HAVE a comfort zone anymore.

That being said, "Christian" does not always equal "complacent", no matter how much you seem to insist that it does.

 

[Snackersmom]

I am currently reading a book called Revolution in World Missions. Christianity in America and the Western World is not all there is. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that I can be a Christian here and not get killed, I love the fact that the US has stablised a government who holds a somewhat ''Christian constituton'' (which I doubt will last a lot longer) ...but oh boy how much we need to learn from our fellow Christians in the East. We have A LOT, and we have MORE than we need.

Having said that, I would be a hypocrite if I said I don't have my own expectations. I'm used to having a comfortable life, maybe not luxurious, but comfortable and even more than comfortable. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so used to it, but I am, and I like it.... I try not to be so attached to my possesions though. I also believe God blesses people or countries so that we can share those blessings. The way my heart sees it and as cliche as it sounds, Jesus is the answer to all those questions.

Security? comes from Christ. Validation? Christ and the way you share Christ. Socioeconomic expectations? If you happen, by God's will, to live and work in a wealthy country you're probably gonna have a decent life and it's your obligation to help others with that blessing.If you happen to live and work in a Third-Second World country, remember that Christ didn't have a bed to lay down his head and you're actually living like most of the world lives. Building a family is not my higuest aspiration although I do want to have one someday, finding True Love would be a higuer priority than that (and God remains the first). I hope the aspirations of someone interested in me are Christ-centered, I don't know how, but just Christ-centered.

^^^Dang, I love this girl! Seriously, are you incapable of being incorrect?

well... I think I'm more frustrated about Pride and Expectations vs. Love and Obedience than I am on about wanting to see the world. I'm not much for tourism (or touristic missions either, another thread for another time). Jesus was the master of humility and purpose. I feel like here in America, its as if we hope that will come AFTER we have had our dessert. We have the means as a people to do great and wonderful things but, I'm poking around trying to figure out what is keeping us from letting go.

Oh, ok, so the thread is about love and obedience. My bad

Honestly, if you're talking about obedience to God, ALL things have to be let go of, including hoping /searching for true love. Even if it's part of God's will for you to marry someday, you can't focus on it too much, because you'll only make yourself miserable. I speak with experience; I might seem all "la-dee-dah, I'm not worried about finding true love, because God can make it happen if He wants it to happen", but it took me a LONG time to get to that point, probably a lot longer than it should have.

Who doesn't want to find true love, seriously? And, yes, if you're focused on Godly things, then the selection of like-minded individuals is going to be pretty slim. But, if you're REALLY seeking to do His will above all else, then things like true love tend to take a back-seat; You don't stress about them because you realize that they aren't as important as you thought they were.

When Jesus told His disciples that they had to be willing to forsake ALL to follow Him, including wives/families, it must have been a pretty tough thing for them to hear, especially to those who were already married (I know that Peter was, not sure about the rest). If we are told to be willing to give up on a spouse for the sake of The Call, how much easier should it be for you and I to give up on a love that we have not yet found? I can't say that it's an easy thing to do, but I'm really glad that I did, it brought me peace. I'm not looking for Mr. Right, he'll turn up if he's supposed to. And, if he doesn't exist, then so be it! if marriage isn't what God wants for me, I'm not going to question Him. He knows what He's doing

Having said all of that, Peter may have been willing to leave his wife to follow Jesus, but the story goes that they stuck together to the end, and were martyred side-by-side. Apparently, she stayed true to Jesus AND to Peter....stuck with him wherever his call took him, even unto death. Sounds like a pretty awesome love story, if you ask me. :'-)

 

[kayem77]

^^^Dang, I love this girl! Seriously, are you incapable of being incorrect?



Oh, ok, so the thread is about love and obedience. My bad

Honestly, if you're talking about obedience to God, ALL things have to be let go of, including hoping /searching for true love. Even if it's part of God's will for you to marry someday, you can't focus on it too much, because you'll only make yourself miserable. I speak with experience; I might seem all "la-dee-dah, I'm not worried about finding true love, because God can make it happen if He wants it to happen", but it took me a LONG time to get to that point, probably a lot longer than it should have.

Who doesn't want to find true love, seriously? And, yes, if you're focused on Godly things, then the selection of like-minded individuals is going to be pretty slim. But, if you're REALLY seeking to do His will above all else, then things like true love tend to take a back-seat; You don't stress about them because you realize that they aren't as important as you thought they were.

When Jesus told His disciples that they had to be willing to forsake ALL to follow Him, including wives/families, it must have been a pretty tough thing for them to hear, especially to those who were already married (I know that Peter was, not sure about the rest). If we are told to be willing to give up on a spouse for the sake of The Call, how much easier should it be for you and I to give up on a love that we have not yet found? I can't say that it's an easy thing to do, but I'm really glad that I did, it brought me peace. I'm not looking for Mr. Right, he'll turn up if he's supposed to. And, if he doesn't exist, then so be it! if marriage isn't what God wants for me, I'm not going to question Him. He knows what He's doing

Having said all of that, Peter may have been willing to leave his wife to follow Jesus, but the story goes that they stuck together to the end, and were martyred side-by-side. Apparently, she stayed true to Jesus AND to Peter....stuck with him wherever his call took him, even unto death. Sounds like a pretty awesome love story, if you ask me. :'-)

I love you too!
You reminded me of Elisabeth Elliot with what you said about being willing to follow His call. Most people assume that marriage is for everyone, and I can see why, but we can't actually know for sure... unless God lets us know.