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G
Yes, this is what I mean. Perhaps it comes from living with my grandfather who always was available to anyone who needed help- I don't primarily mean physical help. He is always asked by people to go pray for them, and he would literally give the shirt off his back if someone needed it. I am not as close to God as he is, so more selfish and not as poured out. I often neglect opportunities to put others' needs above my own. For instance, my great aunt is 80 and can talk for hours on end. I did not answer the phone when she last called because I was working and did not want to be bothered. I should have stopped what I was doing and let her talk my ear off, drain me emotionally, and use my time.
I don't think there is anything in the New Testament about self preservation. It is more geared towards sacrifice, including the sacrifice of time and peace of mind, I think.
Romans 12:14-21
"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not your own selves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Also this: Philippians 2:3-8 "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Paul closes the chapter talking about Epaphroditus who became ill almost unto death in the service of God, not regarding his life, in order to minister to the Philippians. I remember reading about the great poet and pastor George Herbert, who contracted tuberculosis and died an early death by ministering to the poor. I remember reading about John Newton, who put up with poor John Cowper for many years. Cowper was a drain- a depressive who had bouts of spiritual despair. Cowper was CLINGY and lived with Newton and his wife for years. He even got angry when his friend moved to London. Cowper interpreted it as abandonment.
Newton spent many years patiently forbearing with Cowper and trying to assure him of his place in Christ.
We are to take up our crosses. For some of us, our crosses may be draining people.
I am not claiming to be in this exalted state of grace. But I believe that people who give all to others are in this exalted state, and closer to God. Having the mind of Christ, I believe it is.
God has never led me to cut out anyone. I would attribute that to my own selfishness.
I don't think there is anything in the New Testament about self preservation. It is more geared towards sacrifice, including the sacrifice of time and peace of mind, I think.
Romans 12:14-21
"Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not your own selves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
Also this: Philippians 2:3-8 "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Paul closes the chapter talking about Epaphroditus who became ill almost unto death in the service of God, not regarding his life, in order to minister to the Philippians. I remember reading about the great poet and pastor George Herbert, who contracted tuberculosis and died an early death by ministering to the poor. I remember reading about John Newton, who put up with poor John Cowper for many years. Cowper was a drain- a depressive who had bouts of spiritual despair. Cowper was CLINGY and lived with Newton and his wife for years. He even got angry when his friend moved to London. Cowper interpreted it as abandonment.
Newton spent many years patiently forbearing with Cowper and trying to assure him of his place in Christ.
We are to take up our crosses. For some of us, our crosses may be draining people.
I am not claiming to be in this exalted state of grace. But I believe that people who give all to others are in this exalted state, and closer to God. Having the mind of Christ, I believe it is.
God has never led me to cut out anyone. I would attribute that to my own selfishness.
I am so glad to hear you... er, to see you say that Galatea! I know some people who would love to have your phone number so they can call and ask you to do them a favor... and another, and another, and another, for as long as you live. 
They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of.
I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of. I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
There's a difference between helping people and being taken advantage of.
When I was on a mission trip years ago, on a cold day, we served homeless people a lunch. A guy came in, I gave him food and I sat down to chat with him. He was a little drunk. He chatted me up. He told me some stories, and I felt bad for him. He asked if he could have my jacket and I gave it to him. He left.
Fifteen minutes later, I go outside and he doesn't have the jacket. He had sold it to someone for money to buy alcohol. Did I regret giving it to him? Not really. I did what I thought was right and helpful at the moment. But if he had come over and asked for something else, would I have given it to him? No. It would have done zero good except to keep giving him fuel for his addiction, and I certainly didn't want to be a part in that.
I might also add, that I think the idea that you must always think of others over yourself can be a very dangerous mindset to preach. That's what I was taught from a very young age - Never focus on yourself, always focus on others. And it has led to some misaligned thinking and lack of boundaries, which has let people take advantage of me in various ways. I've had to learn to set boundaries and that it is okay to say "No", to pour into myself instead of others for a change. Is that being selfish? Some might say so. But I guess I'd rather be considered slightly selfish in that regard than to be so drained from pleasing others that I am exhausted, weary, and trampled on.
When I was on a mission trip years ago, on a cold day, we served homeless people a lunch. A guy came in, I gave him food and I sat down to chat with him. He was a little drunk. He chatted me up. He told me some stories, and I felt bad for him. He asked if he could have my jacket and I gave it to him. He left.
Fifteen minutes later, I go outside and he doesn't have the jacket. He had sold it to someone for money to buy alcohol. Did I regret giving it to him? Not really. I did what I thought was right and helpful at the moment. But if he had come over and asked for something else, would I have given it to him? No. It would have done zero good except to keep giving him fuel for his addiction, and I certainly didn't want to be a part in that.
I might also add, that I think the idea that you must always think of others over yourself can be a very dangerous mindset to preach. That's what I was taught from a very young age - Never focus on yourself, always focus on others. And it has led to some misaligned thinking and lack of boundaries, which has let people take advantage of me in various ways. I've had to learn to set boundaries and that it is okay to say "No", to pour into myself instead of others for a change. Is that being selfish? Some might say so. But I guess I'd rather be considered slightly selfish in that regard than to be so drained from pleasing others that I am exhausted, weary, and trampled on.
R
You my friend have Gods heart much like David in the bible. Please don't allow people's harshness and flat out bitterness as shown in this and other threads keep you from displaying who God instructs you to be and what you do. I do my best to turn the other cheek and love on the unlovable and I have gotten hurt more times than I can count, but we have to keep going. I had a coworker ask me how I continued having a positive attitude after my boss got after me and I was bold when I said that is my Jesus inside of me and I always asked what would he want me to do in that situation and pulled up my bootstraps, smiled and moved forward.
Galatea, I am proud to have you as my sister in Christ and I will gladly lift you up and keep you in prayers. ❤❤❤
Galatea, I am proud to have you as my sister in Christ and I will gladly lift you up and keep you in prayers. ❤❤❤
There is a very good analogy in a bridge on the freeway. If traffic keeps going over it for years and years, eventually it will crumble. Drivers hate for the bridge to be shut down for maintenance and repairs, but sometimes you gotta deny traffic for a bit so you can keep traffic flowing over the long term.
Giving to those in need is good, but if you give indiscriminately not only will you be taken advantage of but you will quickly run out of your resources - and not just money. If you don't spend some of yourself FOR yourself, you soon won't be much good to anyone because there won't be much of you left TO spend.
Giving to those in need is good, but if you give indiscriminately not only will you be taken advantage of but you will quickly run out of your resources - and not just money. If you don't spend some of yourself FOR yourself, you soon won't be much good to anyone because there won't be much of you left TO spend.
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I am so glad to hear you... er, to see you say that Galatea! I know some people who would love to have your phone number so they can call and ask you to do them a favor... and another, and another, and another, for as long as you live. They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of.
I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of. I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
The pastor said, "You are not called to everybody, and if you think you are, you're going to burn yourself out."
I admire people who believe they are called to the masses and can help everyone. I've tried to live that life before and I know I can't do it, but I still give kudos to anyone who believes they can.
I have two married friends, "Kristen" and "Ryan", who have worked in ministry all their lives and aren't even 40 years old. They're the kind of people who could convince you to follow them straight through hell because of how much they believe in the power of God and the fact that God has called them to help the poor.
I've gone with them on a couple of their adventures, including to a couple of soup kitchens. I have to admit, though, that I was becoming extremely irritated by the patrons who complained about everything--we had chicken, and someone was demanding ribs. We had bread--and another one wanted to know why we didn't have rolls. Everything was about what we should or shouldn't have and why couldn't they have what they wanted. For Pete's sake... This was a soup kitchen, not a James Beard-level restaurant.
Kristen told me that she had seen this continuously over the years, and that many of the people who came to these places didn't have jobs because they treated their jobs the same way--they were entitled to everything, no one was paying them what they were worth, and they were too good to work for anyone--and even though they found themselves homeless, it did nothing to budge their attitudes.
I would like to please ask that no one would twist what I am saying, because I am NOT saying there aren't legitimate needs out there. But I AM saying there sure were a lot of people who felt they were literally owed the world on a platter.
But that never stops Kristen and Ryan, and they're in the process of working in the midst of a major inner city area because they have a strong heart to reach out to drug addicts--that's where God has placed their hearts. However, they are also the parents of small children, and so they're trying to balance their dream of serving a population so many would give up on while keeping their young family safe.
I found my experience at the soup kitchen to be quite eye-opening into my own flaws, because I was very troubled by my reaction. I asked God that night, "WHY did I have so little compassion on those people? What's wrong with me, and what is it You're wanting to fix in my heart?"
And then God reminded me of the people I DID have compassion on--the guy who was faithfully washing dishes, and the mixed-race girl who was wiping down tables and working so hard (people of mixed race in that area are generally treated very poorly.) I wanted so much to give them extra food, but I wasn't allowed to do so. My heart went out to them because of how diligently and earnestly they were working.
I believe that God told me, "You didn't go there for the masses of people, Seoul. You went there for Kristen and Ryan, because those are the ones I've given you a heart for--the people who take care of other people."
That single event changed my life, because I know now that one of my callings is to other workers. Yes, of course I am to try to help most anyone God puts in my path, but I knew from that experience how to better spend my resources and energy.
If I have an hour to listen and $10 in my pocket to give someone, unless God tells me otherwise, I'm going to give it to the workers--the teachers, the staff, the volunteers, the hosts, the organizers, the people behind the sound booth no one sees, the janitors--because I've learned that my endurance is 10 times greater with the ones who serve others.
I actually think it's pretty cool that God would call some people to take care of the people who take care of other people, and I know that for me, serving that population is what I feel most at peace with, and that also helps me be more efficient with what I do have to give.
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A hopeless effort and a wasted plea. Your words will be twisted. Resistance is futile. (Said in the best Borg voice you have ever heard.)
But yeah, I'm reminded of one time when I was at the UPCI campground in Tennessee. A group of about 60 people was using the campground over the weekend. That Saturday morning they ate breakfast in the dining hall, then moved on to whatever they were doing after breakfast.
I popped back to the dining hall to pick up some electronic equipment I had used for a presentation earlier. I saw the district presbyter... vacuuming the floor. To put this in perspective, this was the leader of the whole Tennessee district of our church organization. If anybody had a right to leave that job for somebody else to do, this man would have. There was no team of people he was directing, he didn't tell somebody else to take care of it - he was just quietly vacuuming the floor because it needed to be done and he had a bit of time to do it.
Kinda makes you wonder if your church needs a volunteer to clean something, eh?
But yeah, I'm reminded of one time when I was at the UPCI campground in Tennessee. A group of about 60 people was using the campground over the weekend. That Saturday morning they ate breakfast in the dining hall, then moved on to whatever they were doing after breakfast.
I popped back to the dining hall to pick up some electronic equipment I had used for a presentation earlier. I saw the district presbyter... vacuuming the floor. To put this in perspective, this was the leader of the whole Tennessee district of our church organization. If anybody had a right to leave that job for somebody else to do, this man would have. There was no team of people he was directing, he didn't tell somebody else to take care of it - he was just quietly vacuuming the floor because it needed to be done and he had a bit of time to do it.
Kinda makes you wonder if your church needs a volunteer to clean something, eh?
G
But the Bible says we are to be everything to everyone.
I Corinthians 9:19-22 "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without the law, as without law (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without the law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."
The same spirit that was in Paul is in us.
I Corinthians 9:19-22 "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without the law, as without law (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without the law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."
The same spirit that was in Paul is in us.
G
I am so glad to hear you... er, to see you say that Galatea! I know some people who would love to have your phone number so they can call and ask you to do them a favor... and another, and another, and another, for as long as you live. They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of.
I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
They need YOUR phone number because they already wore MY phone number out, as well as every other phone number they could get hold of. I'm going to have to disagree with you though, for two reasons: Logistics and greed. Basically, if you never turn anybody down you soon get snowed under by greedy people. This renders you incapable of helping the people who truly need help, because all your resources are spent helping everybody who claims to be in need but is really just a professional needy person. The goal is to help those who are really in need, so you have to use a bit of discernment to determine who is really in need.
I don't trust my discernment well enough to determine who is in need and who is not. I just know if God prompts me to give, I'd better do it. I don't think I was ever hurt by giving too much. But I have felt guilty about not giving enough, many times.
I was not primarily talking about money, but emotional support to others.
Romans 13:8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."
It does not say love the lovely or the kind or the good or the sweet. It says we owe all people love. Whether they are emotionally draining or not. It may be as simple as listening to someone whine and bellyache all the livelong day. What a drain! What a bore! What a pain! But it is love if they need someone to listen to their complaining.
Well, I said before that I am not in this exalted state of being a servant to all. I am selfish and I often put my own needs over others. I know people with servant's hearts who others might call doormats. I call them full of grace, and closer to God than us all. These are people always willing to help or listen. Always found doing the dishes at a church function, always serving, always being patient with older people, etc.
I freely admit to not being one of these. But they fulfill the law which is to love everyone.
G
You give me way too much credit. I am a selfish person, and my besetting sins are sins of omission instead of commission. My grandfather and stepgrandmother wanted me to come see them this summer- but I didn't, and my heart smites me. I regret this walling up of myself, and not being drained for others. It is my shame. I'm trying to be more open and available this year to whatever needs are in my path.
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think anyone is being overly harsh, I am probably not actually stating what I am trying to mean, kind of grasping around for the right words. Thank you for praying for me. I will pray for you, too and am proud to call you my sister. ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you for the kind words. I don't think anyone is being overly harsh, I am probably not actually stating what I am trying to mean, kind of grasping around for the right words. Thank you for praying for me. I will pray for you, too and am proud to call you my sister. ❤️❤️❤️
G
I don't want to twist your words. I have zero doubts that you are one of the most generous people here. I guess the thing I would be wondering is would not Christ have compassion for all? And maybe even more compassion for the demanding ones as they are further away from Him and need Him most? I know people have brought up Jesus' harsh words to the pharisees, but He later on the cross cried "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." And they had crucified Him.
I know you are a good person, and very kind. I did not mean to attack you, personally. I just wondered if this idea of cutting out emotionally draining people is prevalent among everyone or if anyone else thinks this is not Christian.
I guess I sound like an enabler, or something. But, I believe that being available to all is at the core of what we believe.
I don't know for sure, but could grumbling about the food be a cover, a defense mechanism? It must be humiliating to eat at a soup kitchen. Maybe grousing about the fare is a way to deal with the humiliation. Anger often covers other emotions. Then, maybe they have gotten hard and tough by living on the streets so are always on the defensive? I'm not sure, but this might be the case for some.
I know you are a good person, and very kind. I did not mean to attack you, personally. I just wondered if this idea of cutting out emotionally draining people is prevalent among everyone or if anyone else thinks this is not Christian.
I guess I sound like an enabler, or something. But, I believe that being available to all is at the core of what we believe.
I don't know for sure, but could grumbling about the food be a cover, a defense mechanism? It must be humiliating to eat at a soup kitchen. Maybe grousing about the fare is a way to deal with the humiliation. Anger often covers other emotions. Then, maybe they have gotten hard and tough by living on the streets so are always on the defensive? I'm not sure, but this might be the case for some.
Dear Galatea, you no longer can call yourself vampire. Because you confessed your fault and am moved to pray for you, as it's written, "Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another that you may be healed. Have struggled with codependency my whole life from poor upbringing, it brought me to know the Lord as Father. It's a long journey shall I not hide it involves suffering rejection with Him. Your blessed and refreshed on your journey and so am I.
Galatea that was you again, not so observant here.
What you and Seoul said here is uplifting and your both correct, "Do good to all men, especially to the household of faith." It also comes natural for me to treat rebellious complainers like Jesus treated religious leaders and have trouble forgiving them. Turning my life around, losing it in Christ. The revelation of His Love comes with a cost some can't figure out the cost of freedom. Few find the strait gate.
What you and Seoul said here is uplifting and your both correct, "Do good to all men, especially to the household of faith." It also comes natural for me to treat rebellious complainers like Jesus treated religious leaders and have trouble forgiving them. Turning my life around, losing it in Christ. The revelation of His Love comes with a cost some can't figure out the cost of freedom. Few find the strait gate.
G
All of the good advice in this thread - in a single word:
balance
Some can do more. Some, not so much.
Do what you can. Ask God for help to do it.
The collective whole of the posts in this thread - in a way - "dance" around a single idea. That idea is best expressed ( thus far, in my opinion ) in post #14.
We all need to learn how to listen to - and heed - the Holy Spirit -- allowing ourself to be led to the people, places, and things that God wants us to be involved in. In as much as we can do this, it "answers" everything illustrated in this thread.
It is the true and real answer to the question.
The good example was given that we should give whenever we believe God is telling us to. At the same -- with rare exception -- if we witness someone abusing what we have given them -- in the same sense as the man selling the jacket so he could by liquor ( or drugs ) -- it does not make sense that we should just keep giving them more of the same -- but, rather, change our method and approach...
Not cutting them off completely -- but, rather, "changing the game" ( so to speak ) in order to reduce or prevent the abuse while still trying to help them.
If you should feel that God is actually telling you:
"Keep giving [ in that way ]."
-- then, keep doing it.
If He is not telling you that -- then, reconsider the whole situation to determine the next best thing to do to help the person without supporting their habitual abusive behavior...
balance
Some can do more. Some, not so much.
Do what you can. Ask God for help to do it.
The collective whole of the posts in this thread - in a way - "dance" around a single idea. That idea is best expressed ( thus far, in my opinion ) in post #14.
We all need to learn how to listen to - and heed - the Holy Spirit -- allowing ourself to be led to the people, places, and things that God wants us to be involved in. In as much as we can do this, it "answers" everything illustrated in this thread.
It is the true and real answer to the question.
The good example was given that we should give whenever we believe God is telling us to. At the same -- with rare exception -- if we witness someone abusing what we have given them -- in the same sense as the man selling the jacket so he could by liquor ( or drugs ) -- it does not make sense that we should just keep giving them more of the same -- but, rather, change our method and approach...
Not cutting them off completely -- but, rather, "changing the game" ( so to speak ) in order to reduce or prevent the abuse while still trying to help them.
If you should feel that God is actually telling you:
"Keep giving [ in that way ]."
-- then, keep doing it.
If He is not telling you that -- then, reconsider the whole situation to determine the next best thing to do to help the person without supporting their habitual abusive behavior...
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