is Smoking a sin?

livingbygrace · Apr 2, 2010

I can quote Spurgeon in far greater amount. He said it is Christ's responsibility to sanctify us, not our own. He quotes Rom5:6

You see at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly

He explains that people without strength are not expected to change themselves. He elaborated. Many become Christians and are consumed by lustful thoughts. He said a person themselves has no chance of conquering that by striving in themselves. There job is to look to Christ and trust him, like a limpet clinging to a rock, then the Holy Spirit can sanctify us.
This is rather different from the way your4 cwords come accross. They appear to suggest that it is what we in our own strength must strive for, even as a new Christian.

I would ask you to consider Spurgeons words of wisdom. Many do not stay Christians after an initial conversion they are crushed with impossible demands by man, I have seen it time after time.

They tie up heavy loads and put them on mens shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matt23:4

Spurgheon also said. 'A chain isd only as string as it's weakest link.' I f we are part of that chain, what will happen to it?

You have mentioned the flesh and that if we live according to it we will die. I agree with this, so I am sure you will agree it isw most vital that we explain what caused lust in the Apostle Paul

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay I had not known sin but for the law: for I had not known lust except the law had said. 'Thou shalt not covet.'
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupicence(sexual desire) for without the law sin was dead

For I was alive without the lawonce, but when the commandment came sin revived, and I died

And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom7:7-11 KJV

Sin used the good laws of God to condemn the Apostle Paul. We must be very careful not to ask others today to try and themselves strive to obey commandments. If we do this surely what happened to Paul will happen to us. This I am sure is why Spurgeon said we are sanctified by faith. He well understood The Apostles words. He said law is for the self righteous. The Apostle Paul confirms this. Victory over sin is by faith in Christ. If you would like me to write the verses out I will, but I assumed you know them.

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature the sinful passions aroused by the law were at5 work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for deatrh. But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code. Rom7:5&6

Let us not make the mistake of creating a new set of commandments to justify our salvation and say we must strive and struggle to obey them. This I believe is wrong. Siin will simply use them to condemn us, if we are honest. It is our job to trust in Jesus as Spurgeon said and the Spirit will sanctify us.

Let me give you an example. As a child I went to a church that laid great emphasis on how we must live and strive to be good. I found what the Apostle Paul did, I just sinned more. I was led to believe that when I became a Christian my Christianity depended on how fgood a life I could personally lead. A sin gripped me for six years

When I left the church and learned of grace. I became a Christian and insterad of believing I was not saved because of sin I looked to Jesus and trusted him. It wasn't easy, due to going to a church that laid the emphasis on what we must achieve I almost gaver in to the voices in my head.
'You can't be a Christian and act like that.' But I did not givre in I lived by the highest law possible faith in Christ. In under a week I was frewe of what had gripped me for six years. Not by striving to obey commandments, but by faitrh in Christ.

Not having a righteousness of my own(self righteousness) that comes from the law(striving to be good enough/works) but that which is by faith in Christ. The righteousness that is from God and comes by faith. Phil3:9

You see I can praise God and give Him all the glory, because I know it is all his to have. I can claim no credit at all. Spurgeon said that he believed God chose a system of faith to save and sanctify us as this cuts out boasting. This I believe is why there is an offence of the cross

livingbygrace · Apr 2, 2010

Just to add. Were you aware that half the sex addicts in America had been to 'holiness' churches? Maybe no-one explained to them what had caused lust to the Apostle Paul, and that he became free by dying to the law(not dying to one set of laws only to be replaced by another concerning the flesh by which we must ourselves strive to to have the victory over)

I weep for people like that. I wonder who God will blame for the depth of sin they are in. Them for having that sin? Or the churches they went to for not telling them the Biblical truth

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

John Wesley:

12. Brethren, great is "my boldness towards you in this behalf." And "forgive me this wrong," if I declare my own folly upon the house-top, for yours and the gospel's sake. --Suffer me, then, to speak freely of myself, even as of another man. I am content to be abased, so ye may be exalted, and to be yet more vile for the glory of my Lord.
13. I did go thus far for many years, as many of this place can testify; using diligence to eschew all evil, and to have a conscience void of offence; redeeming the time; buying up every opportunity of doing all good to all men; constantly and carefully using all the public and all the private means of grace; endeavouring after a steady seriousness of behaviour, at all times, and in all places; and, God is my record, before whom I stand, doing all this in sincerity; having a real design to serve God; a hearty desire to do his will in all things; to please him who had called me to "fight the good fight," and to "lay hold of eternal life." Yet my own conscience beareth me witness in the Holy Ghost, that all this time I was but almost a Christian.

I believed these things myself at one time. I knew that Christ had to cause me to obey, and then I went out trying to obey, expecting Christ would cause me to, but He never did. I knew that Justification was by faith alone, yet I still was out and about trying to earn Christ's love. I was blind. I couldn't see how terribly pathetic my estate was. I just wanted Him to help me, I didn't want Him to do it for me. Back then, I was an "Almost Christian."

(I.) 1. If it be inquired, "What more than this is implied in the being altogether a Christian?" I answer first, the love of God. For thus saith his word, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength." Such a love is this, as engrosses the whole heart, as rakes up all the affections, as fills the entire capacity of the soul and employs the utmost extent of all its faculties. He that thus loves the Lord his God, his spirit continually "rejoiceth in God his Saviour." His delight is in the Lord, his Lord and his All, to whom "in everything he giveth thanks. All his desire is unto God, and to the remembrance of his name." His heart is ever crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside Thee." Indeed, what can he desire beside God? Not the world, or the things of the world: for he is "crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him." He is crucified to "the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life." Yea, he is dead to pride of every kind: for "love is not puffed up" but "he that dwelling in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him," is less than nothing in his own eyes.

5. "The right and true Christian faith is" (to go on m the words of our own Church), "not only to believe that Holy Scripture and the Articles of our Faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence to be saved from everlasting ****ation by Christ. It is a sure trust and confidence which a man hath in God, that, by the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favour of God; whereof doth follow a loving heart, to obey his commandments."
6. Now, whosoever has this faith, which "purifies the heart" (by the power of God, who dwelleth therein) from "pride, anger, desire, from all unrighteousness" from "all filthiness of flesh and spirit;" which fills it with love stronger than death, both to God and to all mankind; love that doeth the works of God, glorying to spend and to be spent for all men, and that endureth with joy, not only the reproach of Christ, the being mocked, despised, and hated of all men, but whatsoever the wisdom of God permits the malice of men or devils to inflict, --whosoever has this faith thus working by love is not almost only, but altogether, a Christian.

Anyway, I am done with questioning myself, my faith nearly having been turned upside down in the last couple of hours of debate. I am convinced that I am in the right path, and in this path I will remain.

Quest

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

I myself follow along with Spurgeon, and many theologians and preachers who are aligned theologically with Spurgeon. I am aligned with Spurgeon both in denomination and in confession of faith. I adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, which he personally commended.

I would like the exact source from which you have quoted Spurgeon, and I ask this not to question you but because I follow with Spurgeon and am curious.

I have a few questions to ask and then I will give you a link to a video I highly urge you to watch. I believe it is so necessary that if you have something you'd like me to watch in return, I will gladly submit. The video is a short sermon by Pastor Tim Conway who can better explain what I've tried to say. He is a reformed Baptist preacher, pastor of Grace Community Church - which also adheres to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and quotes Spurgeon often.

Before you boldly accuse someone of corrupt theology and legalism you had better make sure you've studied the matter thoroughly so as not to be spreading that which is just not true. I submit to you that I do not believe anybody can keep the law of God in any degree pleasing to God. I believe firmly that each and every one of us, including myself, fails God miserably and breaks each and every single one of His commandments every day. The last thing I trust in is my own righteousness; I cry out to God for mercy each day because I am well aware of my wretchedness. The only thing I trust in and rest in is the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and on the day of Judgment when I stand before God that will be the one and only thing I appeal to as grounds for my justification. My desired obedience to God has nothing to do with justification or doing anything to gain anything for myself, but simply to do all that I do, whether I eat or drink, to the glory of God.

1. Why are you accusing me of believing and teaching that one must obey a set of commandments in order to be justified? I do not believe this at all, it is not what I've taught, and I affirm it is legalism at its best. And the last comment you made was just innappropriate. A majority of Christians are lost and hellbound but that doesn't mean you are hindered from being a Christian.

2. I don't know what this "holiness" church movement is, but I don't appreciate that you've implied that I am a part of it. Please explain what this movement is.

Before I post the link to the video I would really like you to watch, I will quote the part of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith dealing with Sanctification. This teaching is what Spurgeon himself upheld, as well as what I uphold.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part13
13. Sanctification
1. Those who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having had a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are then further sanctified in a very real and personal way. Because of the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection and by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them, the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed. The different lusts of the body of sin are increasingly weakened and mortified, and Christ's people are increasingly quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to practice all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

2. This sanctification extends throughout the whole person, yet it remains imperfect in this life. Some remnants of corruption live on in every part, and from this arises a continuous war between irreconcilable parties - the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

3. In this war, although the remaining corruption for a time may greatly prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part overcomes. And so the saints grow in grace perfecting holiness in the fear of God; pressing after a heavenly life in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in His Word, has prescribed to them.

By all means please watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmQ5VjfsRU

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

What I am going to say may offend you Dane_G87, but it is the truth and therefore I must say it.

I'm glad that you understand what Sanctification is Dane_G87. What I would say to you in response is this: That you do not have a Sanctifying faith. You do not yet have a living faith in Christ that will change you to a Sanctified state. LivingByGrace has this faith, and I am seeking it.

You need to follow Wesley's example from this point forward. You must cry out "Lord, help thou my unbelief!"

'Here,' Wesley says, 'ended my disputing. I could now only cry out, Lord, help Thou my unbelief.' This was for him a time of great spiritual conflict. He was passing through a strait gate. Since his intercourse with the Moravians he had been gradually led to see that he had been putting much confidence in his strict attention to the performances of religion. In assigning to these their proper place and proportion there is no need to minify their importance. Wesley's danger was in their exaggeration. One striking feature of his training hitherto had been the reduction of his entire conduct to rule; so that the individual hours of the day', and even separate portions of the same hour, had each its allotted task. In his pocket-diary, kept with the greatest precision for many years, the occupation even of minutes is recorded. His whole conduct, his words, his very thoughts were under control, and were regulated by laws, which he was strict to observe, and every departure from which gave him pain.

Never was a man more resolute in this process of self-control and self-discipline. He had long accustomed himself, to frequent interrogations as to his fidelity. Precise questions were drawn up and faithfully proposed at stated times, of which examples have been given. He was a most rigid 'Methodist' even before that name, as a stigma, was attached to him. He was not without light and comfort, but he was gradually being led to see that he was far from the perfect light and rest of the gospel. That light, however, was dawning upon him. Whether it must be said that he was or was not a true Christian is in great part a question of definition. How much is included in being a Christian? He had faith, but it was not the perfect faith. It was not the faith that brings assurance. He was a good man, He was in many respects a very saint, a pattern to believers; but, withal, he had not yet attained. He was in the light, but it was not the perfect day. He had rest, but it was unsettled, unassured. There was yet a further, a happier stage. 'I want that faith which none can have without knowing that he hath it. For whosoever hath it is freed from fear, having peace with God through Christ, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. And he is freed from doubt, having the love of God shed abroad in his heart.'

How shall it be explained that Wesley, after so many years of earnest seeking, failed to find the gospel salvation? He had been in the ministry more than twelve years. He was diligent in the discharge of every duty; he fasted and prayed and gave alms; he attended with scrupulous care on all the means of grace, including a frequent attendance at the Lord's table; he laboured assiduously, even to the utmost of his strength, for the welfare of others. Yet he had not found the peace of the gospel How was this? Would not his own answer be, Israel which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law (Rom. ix. 31, 32, R.V.).

He now became persuaded that this faith is the gift of God, and that God would surely bestow it upon every soul who earnestly and perseveringly sought it; and he resolved, by the grace of God to seek it unto the end, (I). By absolutely renouncing all dependence, in whole or in part upon my own works or righteousness, on which I had really grounded my hope of salvation, though I knew it not, from my youth up.' (How true! This confession is exceedingly impressive.) '(2) By adding to the constant; use of all the other means' of grace a continual prayer for this very thing, justifying, saving grace, a full reliance on the blood of Christ shed for me, a trust in Him as my Christ, as my sole justification, sanctification, and redemption.'

I'm not interested in further debates upon this subject, but I am willing to help you Dane if you are serious about finding this faith. But I will not debate whether or not you have this faith, as I am convinced that you don't. When I listen to you, all I see is the man that I used to be.

Quest

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

Why do you speak as though you can see my heart? You have alot of arrogance mounting up within you and you judge me according to your personal understanding of things you've been learning from Zac Poonen. You claim you rest in this "living faith" but you yourself are guilty of striving to "find this faith" and in so doing it has become a work you've personally achieved. You say you're striving to find this faith that savinggrace has - guess what buddy? You're doing works to gain something. And seeking to be saved from works, even if you want to call it "saving faith" - you've fallen from grace.

I don't need to strive to do anything to be saved. I simply trust in what Christ did for me on the cross. He took all my sins and bore the wrath of God and it is from that alone I am set free. Out of love and reverence to my King I am willing to submit to His kingship by the power of His Holy Spirit.

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

dane_g87 said:

Then please tell me, why can I not see this in you:

(I.) 1. If it be inquired, "What more than this is implied in the being altogether a Christian?" I answer first, the love of God. For thus saith his word, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength." Such a love is this, as engrosses the whole heart, as rakes up all the affections, as fills the entire capacity of the soul and employs the utmost extent of all its faculties. He that thus loves the Lord his God, his spirit continually "rejoiceth in God his Saviour." His delight is in the Lord, his Lord and his All, to whom "in everything he giveth thanks. All his desire is unto God, and to the remembrance of his name." His heart is ever crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside Thee." Indeed, what can he desire beside God? Not the world, or the things of the world: for he is "crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him." He is crucified to "the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, and the pride of life." Yea, he is dead to pride of every kind: for "love is not puffed up" but "he that dwelling in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him," is less than nothing in his own eyes.

Why can I not see this either:

5. "The right and true Christian faith is" (to go on m the words of our own Church), "not only to believe that Holy Scripture and the Articles of our Faith are true, but also to have a sure trust and confidence to be saved from everlasting ****ation by Christ. It is a sure trust and confidence which a man hath in God, that, by the merits of Christ, his sins are forgiven, and he reconciled to the favour of God; whereof doth follow a loving heart, to obey his commandments."
6. Now, whosoever has this faith, which "purifies the heart" (by the power of God, who dwelleth therein) from "pride, anger, desire, from all unrighteousness" from "all filthiness of flesh and spirit;" which fills it with love stronger than death, both to God and to all mankind; love that doeth the works of God, glorying to spend and to be spent for all men, and that endureth with joy, not only the reproach of Christ, the being mocked, despised, and hated of all men, but whatsoever the wisdom of God permits the malice of men or devils to inflict, --whosoever has this faith thus working by love is not almost only, but altogether, a Christian.

I have to make a judgment based on what I see. You are attempting to convince me that I am in error, and I am not convinced. I stand by the testimony of the old saints, like Wesley and Spurgeon, that a true and living faith will change a man from darkness to light, and fill his heart with love.

If you can attempt to convince me that I am in error, then I can do the same. I have included loads of testimony from Wesley, LivingByGrace has also given excellent testimony to a life of faith. Either you consider the possibility that you may be wrong, or you can continue your search for sincere Christians elsewhere, because evidently LivingByGrace and I are not sincere by your definition. We are not sincere, because we trust God and want to love God and be moved by love, rather than by a list of rules.

Quest

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

I'm going to break this down to you Quest: John Wesley did not write inspired Scripture. John Wesley was not inspired. Why you are seeking to judge and measure me by John Wesley's writings I do not know! Why don't you appeal to Scripture, and ask me your questions, because what you just did is absolutely ridiculous. No Christian should EVER use the writings of any man apart from Scripture to judge or determine anything.

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

dane_g87 said:

Look once more at Wesley's writing. Everytime you see quotation marks "" the content in between them is a scripture verse (except the quote from the Church of England). Besides, where do you think he got his knowledge? Why do all of the old saints I have read agree with Wesley? Booth, Finney, Murray, Taylor, Wigglesworth, etc..

Quest

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

Appeal to Scripture alone apart from any commentary. Wesley was a great theologian, but he was wrong on various points. His writings are fallible.

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

Can you appeal to Scripture alone and judge me according to the word of God apart from any commentaries? Can you do anything without resorting to the exegeses of Wesley? You know what I see wrong with you? You have made an idol out of your theology, out of Wesley, and out of this "faith" you are seeking. You aren't resting in Christ, you're trying to be saved by a "faith" that you haven't found yet. You're trying to find this faith that you say savinggrace has. Just because you call it "Faith", and just because the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, does not mean you are biblical in this area. You've made this "faith" out to be a work that you are trusting in in order to be saved. You're no different from a Pharisee in this respect. The Pharisees trusted in their own righteousness. You're seeking to trust in your own faith. I trust in Jesus Christ alone.

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

dane_g87 said:

Very well,

Matt 7:
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I look at the fruits of the godly men I have mentioned. I look also at your fruits in this forum, your contentious replies to everyone, the way you responded to Oopsies as well.

So after comparing these men's fruits with yours, who's interpretation of the scripture should I believe?

Heb 13:

7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Follow the faith of men like John Wesley.

Luke 6:40:
40The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John Wesley was "as his master."

Philippians 3:17:
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Quest

QuestionTime · Apr 2, 2010

dane_g87 said:

But you do anything but rest Dane. There is always this, that and the other thing that is required. You have to strive and fight and cut off your hand. Where is the rest in this? Where is this trust that always needs to do something else, always you are required to do more. You tell me that you fail to do these things often. You say you fall short. Of what? Rest? You fall short of rest? I don't doubt that, and therefore have been hoping to try and help you find it. Either you rest or you don't. Either all that is required of you is finished in Christ or nothing is finished and you must finish it. Which is it?

Quest

dane_g87 · Apr 2, 2010

When I say Christians must strive, you say I believe we must strive for salvation and we must strive in order to be saved. But this is not true. I believe we do nothing to be saved. I rest in the finished work of Christ and it is glorious. I am doing nothing to work for salvation. I am not seeking to find anything in order to find salvation like you are. The power of God in saving a person is so great that it leaves a wake behind it. Those whom God saves He causes them to walk in His statutes and they are from that point onward careful to keep His ordinances (Ezekiel 36). This is what you are seeing in me and my striving. I strive, oh do I strive by the grace of God with all my heart! I strive not for salvation. I rest in my salvation Christ alone has provided for me. I strive, however, to do all to the glory of God.

These Scriptures betray you and your faulty understanding - and perhaps da mnable view - of salvation:

(Philippians 2:12) Work out your salvation with fear and trembling

(Matthew 7:22-23) Jesus said, "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

(Acts 24:16) Paul said, "This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men."

(Romans 11:22) Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

(1 Corinthians 9:27) But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

(1 John 2:3-5) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

(1 John 3:7-8, 10) He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

(1 Corinthians 10:31) Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Are you going to conclude that all these were legalists too? Paul strived. Paul commanded the Christians to work out their salvation. Jesus condemned false Christians on the basis of their lawlessness. Are you going to say that John was a legalist? He said that if you claim to be a Christian, and yet you aren't keeping God's commandments and practicing righteousness, you're a lying child of Satan. If Paul were to tell you to do all to the glory of God, you'd accuse him of being a legalist.

The reason you cannot understand any of this Quest is because you err in your understanding of Wesley's teachings. You don't understand the difference between what legalism truly is and how true salvation generates obedience. You don't understand that legalism is defined as 1) doing anything in order to gain something for yourself or 2) adding to or taking from the commandments of God. You don't understand that when God saves a person and justifies them forever by the blood of Christ alone apart from any of their works, He then causes them to walk in such a way so as to be careful to practice righteousness and live according to obedience. You sit there and judge me and declare that I have no saving or resting faith, but in all reality I'm the one here who's resting gloriously in the salvation Christ has authored and finished on the cross, while you go on your little quest to find this faith you admit you don't have.

livingbygrace · Apr 3, 2010

dane_g87 said:

I will take your points one at a time. You ask where these quotes from Spurgeon came from. He wrote a well known book. 'All of Grace.' I am sure you could get a copy. There are far more staements I could quote from that book than so far I have. If you read the book you will find I have not misquoted his words. I woulds urge you to read the book it speaks of true grace. Many do not understand what true grace really is, I am sure of this.

You say in honesty(and I respect this) that each and every one of us fails miserably you included to keep God's Hpoly Commandments. You further say that we including yourself breaks everyone of God's commandments every day. Such honesty is to be commended. But I am left baffled that you then suggest that if we do not strife to live an almost perfect Christian life and if someone does something like smoking they should consider if they are reallyb a Christian. Why should they if all Christians every day break all of God's commandments?

This is the tragedty I have seen all my life. Ministers and over zealous Christians demanding how pure and high a level of Christianity must be obtained when in truth they cannot themselves aspire to such a level and so it is true.

They tie up heavy loads and put them on mens shoulders, but they themselves are not willi9ng to lift a finger to move them. Matt23:4

Woe to you teachers ofr the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You shut the kingdom of Heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter nor will you let those enter who are trying. Matt23:13

I would add on this subject. If as you say every day you break all of God's commandments I would ask yourself are you truly living in the grace Paul spoke of so much. It is only in that grace there is freedom from sin.

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace. Rom6:14

As for what is a holiness church. I would imagine one that lays nearly all the emphasis on how good and pure a life we have to live to be a Christian. One that demands we struggle and strive in ourselves against the sinful nature in us, and if we cannot live a holy or pure enough life we should wquestion whether we are a Christian.

To many this sounds correct. But where is the message of Grace? That isw not the foundation of Christianity. Do I really need to write that all out?

We are saved from our sins by faith in Christ. We are justified, sanctified by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirits power. We receive the Holy Spirit, not by law keeping(being good or pure enough) but by faith. And we receive the power for miracles by faith, not by law keeping/being good enough or worthy enoughy.

I would invite people to read your comments and decide for themselves whether you have almost fully spoken of someones Christianity hinging on them being pure and Holy enough to enter Heaven.

I do not wish to watch the videos you have suggested, I am sorry. Obviously these are people you would completely agree with. We have a very different idea of God's grace I believe and the way to have victory in the Christian life. We will both stand before Christ on the judgement day. I will stand on the scripture I put to you now. But if any church or person does not tell people Biblically how to be free of their sin, and what caused Paul to be so in the grip of sin, I can only repeat who will God hold responsible for that person sin? Them for being steeped in sin? Or the Church forv not telling them the Biblical truth

Do you regularly when preaching or talkingb to non Christiansd explain to them that Christ died for every sin a Christian can commit(if thery are sincerely looking to Christ and trusting him) Do you tell them that no Christian is under law? Do you tell them it is the law that arouses the sinful passions in us, and do you tell them Paul was consumed by list by trying and failing to obey the Ten Commandmennts

Do you tell them that by dying to the law and living by faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they will have their victory, and that in their own strength they cannot do a thing. Do you constantly tell them it is not about being 'good enough' but faith in Christ, andf that ther only righteousness for Heaven we will ever have is Christ dying for us on the cross

For it is we who arte the circumcision, we who worship by the Spoirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. Phil3:3

We must tell people of a grace, an Amazing Grace of God sending His Son to die for their sins while they were yet without strengty We must tell them it is not by their striving to be 'good enough' thast God iws pleased, but if they trust in His precious son who died for them

Paul said we get everything from God we strove for by law(being good /pure enough) by instead trusting in His Son.

livingbygrace · Apr 3, 2010

dane_g87 said:

When I say Christians must strive, you say I believe we must strive for salvation and we must strive in order to be saved. But this is not true. I believe we do nothing to be saved. I rest in the finished work of Christ and it is glorious. I am doing nothing to work for salvation. I am not seeking to find anything in order to find salvation like you are. The power of God in saving a person is so great that it leaves a wake behind it. Those whom God saves He causes them to walk in His statutes and they are from that point onward careful to keep His ordinances (Ezekiel 36). This is what you are seeing in me and my striving. I strive, oh do I strive by the grace of God with all my heart! I strive not for salvation. I rest in my salvation Christ alone has provided for me. I strive, however, to do all to the glory of God.

I am more confused than ever now. You say here that those whom God saves he causes to walk in His statutes and be careful to keep his ordinances. And yet you say that every day you break all of God's Holy Commandments. How does this add up.? Please explain?

What you are basically saying is that we are saved by faith, but kept by our own striving and personal goodness and effort. Obviously this does not work if a person following this every day breaks everyone of God's Holy Commandments.

You see this is what Paul explained. It is impossible to try and live by obeying law. You will get nowhere. And when the new Christian heres you telling them all of this they will if they are sincere become crushed and probably give up with God. Because they cannot reach this high state of Christianity, that you by your own admittance cannot achieve either. You do see how this is begining to look don't you?.

What God wants is a sincere person who knows in his heart that he is a worthless sinner and that in himself he cannot achieve what God requires. He accepts it has to be what God can do in him, not what he can do himself.

It was the people who had Jesus crucified that demanded so much and that the people fully obeyed the law, and yet these Pharisees and Saducees themselves could not obey the law.

I believe the difference in us is I believe of a sanctification of faith in Chjrist who died for me, not by looking at striving to obey laws/commandments. I found that did not work.

QuestionTime · Apr 3, 2010

Challenge To Dane_G87

I am going to offer you a challenge Dane. It's going to be very difficult for you, but it's not possible. If you are a courageous man, you will take up my challenge.

My challenge is this: Lay down all obligation to obey the Law of God over the next seven days. Throw down all of the thoughts in your mind that tell you that you must obey. Make a serious commitment that you will not give any efforts to obey God's Law whatsoever over the next week.

If you do this, I am sure you will find yourself quite lost. You will be terrified in your heart that you will surely be eternally condemned for your lack of efforts. But try this, and as you lay down these obligations, instead spend your time trusting Jesus, that He accepts you as you are. Rather than make effort to do this, that and the other thing, just thank Jesus that you are saved.

It's frightening to do, oh so terribly frightening! But as you do this - I promise you - your faith in God will begin to grow. Your love for God will begin to grow. Yes, just throw yourself completely at his mercy and rest in Christ's merits.

Quest

livingbygrace · Apr 3, 2010

dane_g87 said:

No John was not a legalist. John said 'does not keep his commandments is a liar. But for clarity it would have been accurate if you had also mentioned.

Dear friends if our hearts do not condemn us we have confidence before God and receive from him anything wee ask, because we obey His commands and do what pleases Him. And this is His command, to believe in the name of His Son jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.1John3:21-23

That would seem to back up what Paul said. Faith in Jesus and carry one anothers burdens.

I mean this sincerely. You stress the importance of obeying commandments, ordinances, and living a Holy life. And yet(to your credit) you have stated that every day you break all of God's laws/commandments.

I passionately with sincerity say this. Firstly you are condemning yourself, by setting the standard and completely failing in that standard. But the most important question that you need to ask yourself is why am I failing so badly by continually breaking all of God's good laws.

Obviously you passionately believe they should be obeyed, and yet by your own words you continual completely fail. Would God want you to continually fail? I am sure He would not. Is it not possible that you just may be going about this the wrong way? Please, before replying take time to consider this

dane_g87 · Apr 3, 2010

I am planning on replying to all these posts. However I feel as though I will have to publicize my statement of faith afterward, after all of this defamation brought upon me and my theology, at your hands. Livingbygrace, I see that you are fond of Charles Spurgeon, and so I will appeal much to him as a defense along with my replying to your accusations against me.

livingbygrace · Apr 3, 2010

dane_g87 said:

Our disagreement is not on what it takes for someone to become a Christian, it is what happens after they have become one

I would welcome any comments you may write concerning Charles Spurgeon, I am sure he would not have contradicted himself. If you are accusing me of defaming your character please give me a specific instance

I have Spurgeons book in front of me and may myself refer to it

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