is Smoking a sin?

[livingbygrace]

.

You asked, "Do you regularly when preaching or talkingb to non Christiansd explain to them that Christ died for every sin a Christian can commit(if thery are sincerely looking to Christ and trusting him)? Do you tell them that no Christian is under law? Do you tell them it is the law that arouses the sinful passions in us, and do you tell them Paul was consumed by list by trying and failing to obey the Ten Commandmennts?"
- I always tell unbelievers when discussing how a person is saved that Christ died for all the sins of His people, past, present, and future, and that it is only by His sacrifice and atonement on the cross that they are made perfect before God, and that He alone is the only One in whom they can trust for salvation, apart from trusting in personal righteousness or anything else. I teach that no Christian is under the law, but has been set free from the law, because being under the law requires perfect obedience in order to enter into life, and none are perfect; I tell them we are under grace. I am not sure about your last 2 questions, I would ask you to quote the particular Scriptures but I fear that would deviate from the rest of my post which will be lengthy. So we can save this for another time.

This goes to the heart of our disagreement. You ask for the Bible verses concerning the last two points. Why? I gave the relevant verses in posts to you yesterday which you read and replied to

Rom7:5-11 It covers all of it. Is it true that maybe you are not sure of what is meant hear?

You know this goes to the very heart of victory in the Christian life, and should regularly be preached. It is the law that aroused the sinful passions in Paul. That is why when people become Christians today if they are not clearly told they are not under law, but under faith in Christ to set them free of their sins they will simply have far more sinful passions aroused in them, hence many who go to holiness churches end up as sex addicts. Don't think I am crazy this is scriptural.

Paul was adamant it is the law where sin enslaves us. The power of sin is the law. 1Cor15:56 Paul clearly states that he could not obey the Ten Commandments and the result of knowing them was lust being aroused in him far more than it would have been had he not known the commandment. Now I hope you will reflect on this, it is the truth.

You say we must struggle against sin. That is a direct quote. This is not true for the new Christian. You haver to see there is a difference between the sin brought in from the former life and willful deliberate sin committed once someone has been set free of a sin. The new Christians struggle is to keep their eyes on Christ and trust him. I can quote Spurgeon for this if you do not believe me. But I will quote the Bible

If while we seek tov be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves arew sinners does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker

It is obvious that when we become Chrisrttian sin is evident in our lives. But why does Paul say. Does Christ promote sin? If we were to struggle ourselves to rid ourselves of the sin he would not have said that. We are to look to Jesus and trust him and rejoice in our salvation, not look to the sin and try and rid ourselves of it, if we do we are ineffect unde law. Paul verifies that.
Absolutely not if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawebreaker. In other words if we struggle to get rid of the sin ourselves we will fail

You have to make the new Christian understand(though I know mninisters are afraid to) there job isd to trust Jesus and rejoice in their salvation. Spurgeon said satan will plasnt much in the new believers mind to try and turn him away from trusting and looking to Christ. This is where it so often goes wrong forv the new believer Why are ministers retivcent to tell people what happened to the Apostle Paul it is in the Bible?. A sincxere conversion cannot bring about a licence to sin. Some used it as that in the NT Jude4 but they were not sincere. Tell people that they do not struggle against sin when they become a Christian, their struggle is to keep looking to Jesus and trust him. Of corse if someone goes to church and doesn't have glaring problems you can get away wwith not telling them. I am sure it was because Spurgeon preached this that he saw prostitues and drunks come into the kingdom in greaty numbers.

Take away the law you take away sins power and much of sins allure, it is true, believe me. How many actually that you know(be honest) when they become Christians do as Spurgeon says and just look to Christ and trust him? Not many I bet!

Remember when the law was given sin increased. Rom5:20

 

[livingbygrace]

There is nobody alive who can keep any of God's commandments perfectly. Each and every one of us fails miserably to keep any of the commandments of God perfectly as He requires. This appeals in many respects to 1) that he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of all; 2) the law is fulfilled in perfect love to God and man; 3) we are unable to even detect the hidden sins deep within our being; 4) we have no way of knowing if we've kept the commandment perfectly because of principle #3; 5) who alive can say they are able to keep any one of God's commandments perfectly?

I don't know what you're trying to get at or what you're trying to squeeze out of me. I stand by what I said. You've questioned my motive and reason why I've said what I've said, and I've tried to appeal to various reasons why I said what I said. But I remain firm in that nobody, not even myself, can ever say "I've kept this or that commandment completely, thoroughly, and perfectly, as God requires, this day."

Your words yesterday do not tally with what you have written today. I simply gave you the oppurtunity to admit it should have been worded differently

 

[dane_g87]

According to whom? I am sorry if you personally feel that way livingbygrace but I am answering for myself and I am declaring to you what I personally believe. Did you know that if a person is able to keep one of God's commandments, and he does it with the wrong motive, then his keeping that commandment is an abomination to God even if he was able to keep it (apart from that evil motive) better than any other man living? Can you say you always 100% have perfect motives to do what you do each and every day? I don't know about you, but I cannot. I am too wicked; I have a sinful nature, and my heart is deceitfully wicked...I cannot know it. I cannot keep any of God's commandments perfectly like He requires. Nobody can.

Is this the only thing you have against me now? Is that the reason why you are holding onto this one supposition? Is the only thing you have as a foundation assumption or "what it appears"? If so you are not being biblical in this area as we are to judge matters according to the word of God in truth. So take the word of God and judge me by it. Why do you judge me by your own suppositions? Does the word of God declare that we can ever keep God's commandments perfectly like He requires? If it does, show me, and I will stand with my hand over my mouth. But if it does not, then why do you continue to do this?

 

[livingbygrace]

According to whom? I am sorry if you personally feel that way livingbygrace but I am answering for myself and I am declaring to you what I personally believe. Did you know that if a person is able to keep one of God's commandments, and he does it with the wrong motive, then his keeping that commandment is an abomination to God even if he was able to keep it (apart from that evil motive) better than any other man living? Can you say you always 100% have perfect motives to do what you do each and every day? I don't know about you, but I cannot. I am too wicked; I have a sinful nature, and my heart is deceitfully wicked...I cannot know it. I cannot keep any of God's commandments perfectly like He requires. Nobody can.

Is this the only thing you have against me now? Is that the reason why you are holding onto this one supposition? Is the only thing you have as a foundation assumption or "what it appears"? If so you are not being biblical in this area as we are to judge matters according to the word of God in truth. So take the word of God and judge me by it. Why do you judge me by your own suppositions? Does the word of God declare that we can ever keep God's commandments perfectly like He requires? If it does, show me, and I will stand with my hand over my mouth. But if it does not, then why do you continue?

I caqnnot reply to all your points tonight it is late in England. As you said to me earlier, patience! I have replied to one more and I am sorry but we will have to differ lets say as to the interpretation you give as to breaking every commandment being meant as two. I don't think anyone else on cc reading your comment yesterday would have likened it to as you say now

I know of the abomination, but I am not under law, actually I simply live by faith in Christ. My righteousness is not my own it is Christ's imputed in me. So I do not have to worry about why a law may or may not be kept. We die to the law, that is scriptural

 

[dane_g87]

I caqnnot reply to all your points tonight it is late in England. As you said to me earlier, patience! I have replied to one more and I am sorry but we will have to differ lets say as to the interpretation you give as to breaking every commandment being meant as two. I don't think anyone else on cc reading your comment yesterday would have likened it to as you say now I know of the abomination, but I am not under law, actually I simply live by faith in Christ. My righteousness is not my own it is Christ's imputed in me. So I do not have to worry about why a law may or may not be kept. We die to the law, that is scriptural

I am not rushing you, take your time.

And I am not saying the only thing that I meant was that every commandment being meant was 2. There are many respects to consider and I was appealing to one of them, which in that case was the 2 great commandments. I believe I clarified this:

"There is nobody alive who can keep any of God's commandments perfectly. Each and every one of us fails miserably to keep any of the commandments of God perfectly as He requires. This appeals in many respects to 1) that he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of all; 2) the law is fulfilled in perfect love to God and man; 3) we are unable to even detect the hidden sins deep within our being; 4) we have no way of knowing if we've kept the commandment perfectly because of principle #3; 5) who alive can say they are able to keep any one of God's commandments perfectly?"

 

[livingbygrace]

I am not rushing you, take your time.

And I am not saying the only thing that I meant was that every commandment being meant was 2. There are many respects to consider and I was appealing to one of them, which in that case was the 2 great commandments. I believe I clarified this:

"There is nobody alive who can keep any of God's commandments perfectly. Each and every one of us fails miserably to keep any of the commandments of God perfectly as He requires. This appeals in many respects to 1) that he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of all; 2) the law is fulfilled in perfect love to God and man; 3) we are unable to even detect the hidden sins deep within our being; 4) we have no way of knowing if we've kept the commandment perfectly because of principle #3; 5) who alive can say they are able to keep any one of God's commandments perfectly?"

I will have to answer the rest of your points tomorrow, I should be in bed now, but I have as you will have seen queried one other of your points. I look forward to your answer to it.

I may come back to this first point tomorrow as well, I am very tired now and finding it hard to think straight. It is 4:30 here

 

[livingbygrace]

I am not rushing you, take your time.

And I am not saying the only thing that I meant was that every commandment being meant was 2. There are many respects to consider and I was appealing to one of them, which in that case was the 2 great commandments. I believe I clarified this:

"There is nobody alive who can keep any of God's commandments perfectly. Each and every one of us fails miserably to keep any of the commandments of God perfectly as He requires. This appeals in many respects to 1) that he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of all; 2) the law is fulfilled in perfect love to God and man; 3) we are unable to even detect the hidden sins deep within our being; 4) we have no way of knowing if we've kept the commandment perfectly because of principle #3; 5) who alive can say they are able to keep any one of God's commandments perfectly?"

As you are eager for these points to be answered I do hope for a reply to my second response

 

[dane_g87]

Okay well have a good night and get some rest. Tomorrow I don't know what I'll be doing, as it is easter and I will be at church. I don't know if I will be devoting my day to study or fellowship. I will answer your reply either tomorrow or the next day depending on my day. God bless.

 

[livingbygrace]

Okay well have a good night and get some rest. Tomorrow I don't know what I'll be doing, as it is easter and I will be at church. I don't know if I will be devoting my day to study or fellowship. I will answer your reply either tomorrow or the next day depending on my day. God bless.

Is there a problem with answering my response to you concerning Rom7:5-11? Only it has been up a while

 

[dane_g87]

I plan on studying those Scriptures and aligning what I understand with what other theologians have understood from it, including Spurgeon.

 

[livingbygrace]

I plan on studying those Scriptures and aligning what I understand with what other theologians have understood from it, including Spurgeon.

lol I can't say I blame you, but to me it is quite clear, I don't see what the problem is. And I am not saying overall I would know the Bible as well as you, but Paiul is adamant the law enslaves us to sin.

I have as grsandson He is two there are 6 things he musn't touch in my computer room he goes straight for them when he comes round There is an allure ion doing wrong

When I became a Christian I thought I had to be good enough according to law and sin enslaved me as it did Paul. I am not being unkind here, but I cannot see why to so many these verses are a taboo or supposedly hard to understand

 

[livingbygrace]

lol I can't say I blame you, but to me it is quite clear, I don't see what the problem is. And I am not saying overall I would know the Bible as well as you, but Paiul is adamant the law enslaves us to sin.

I have as grsandson He is two there are 6 things he musn't touch in my computer room he goes straight for them when he comes round There is an allure ion doing wrong

When I became a Christian I thought I had to be good enough according to law and sin enslaved me as it did Paul. I am not being unkind here, but I cannot see why to so many these verses are a taboo or supposedly hard to understand

That is why Paul said

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. Rom6:14 But how many in their hearts would fiully live without the law? Paul did he was a happy man despite his crushing troubles because the thing that condemned him was totally removed.

 

[dane_g87]

Well livingbygrace I am sorry that I am not as smart or wise as you are. It is never wrong to be well studied and refreshed in the word of God.

 

[livingbygrace]

Well livingbygrace I am sorry that I am not as smart or wise as you are. It is never wrong to be well studied and refreshed in the word of God.

Over the whole Bible you would be far more knowledgeable than me, I can admit that, but over this certain subject probably not

And it is not I am smart. It is because of my childhood. If you become crushed like that by guilt you understand more the grace. But I did noty show myserlf it, God did, but he used my childhood to help me see. I know nothing about the Bible unless I am showen it, what is human wisdom?

 

[livingbygrace]

Well livingbygrace I am sorry that I am not as smart or wise as you are. It is never wrong to be well studied and refreshed in the word of God.

Let me ask you something, but you don't haver to answer it. When you became a Christian over a period of time did you find that there was an allurement that got stronger to do things that would be against God's good laws? Or one thing specifically?

 

[QuestionTime]

Fighting gets no one anywhere fast. Can't we please stop?? LOL

It's not fighting. We are trying to lead a soul to faith.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Questiontime, when someone rebukes another person or informs them that they are incorrect, this doesn't mean that they're being condescending. I believe you are very wrong in your theology, yes I admit that. I also believe livingbygrace is mistaken and has misquoted Charles Spurgeon. That I have believed this and voiced this does not make me condescending. You can't just throw out accusations at people when they disagree with you or say you are wrong. Aside from being "condescending" what about you being so arrogant? That you had the nerve to act as though you could peer into my heart and declare that I have no faith? Why don't you learn your place, O sinner? You cannot see the heart of men, and you can neither judge the heart of men.

It's not difficult to figure out whether or not you have the true faith Dane. All I need to do is compare you to those who do have it. Are you like the Moravian Christians described below?

" Wesley was on a ship bound for America that also carried a number of Moravian missionaries. He was challenged by their great seriousness and their humility in performing for other passengers the most servile tasks, which none of the English passengers would do. When they were offered pay for this, they refused, replying that ‘it was good for their proud hearts,' and ‘ their loving savior had done more for them.' Some of the passengers abused them terribly, even striking them or knocking them down, but they would never strike back or even take offense. Many perceived these German missionaries as cowards until a great storm broke over the ship. As the main sail split and the sea began to pour into the ship, the English panicked, their terrified screams rising even above the tumult of the storm. Yet the Moravians sat quietly, singing their hymns. Afterwards, when one of the Moravians was asked if he was afraid during the storm, he answered ,'I thank God, no.' Then he was asked if their women and children were afraid, and he replied,' No; our women and children are not afraid to die.' Wesley recorded this in his diary and added:' From them ( the Moravians ) I went to their crying trembling neighbors, and pointed out to them the difference in the hour of trial, between him that feareth God, and him that feareth not. At twelve the wind fell. This was the most glorious day which I have hitherto seen.' "

1 John 4:
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So tell me Dane, are you afraid to die? If you were to feel very close to death today, would you be fearful? Please be honest with yourself. If you are fearful, then you do not have this "perfect love" yet.

Do you walk away without anger when you are abused by people, Dane? Do you allow others to push you down to the ground and then walk away without taking offense, but rather with a song of praise to God in your heart?

Do you love to scrub filthy toilets and do other dirty work, all the while saying: "It's good for my proud heart, because my loving Savior has done more for me." ??

Those Moravians were true Christians. Forget about keeping a list of rules from the Bible! I would rather exchange all of the rules, in order to have a faith and godly character like those people had. (The Righteousness of God by faith).

Quest

 

[livingbygrace]

In my first post here I will answer to the accusations levied against me and my beliefs:

You said, "You say in honesty(and I respect this) that each and every one of us fails miserably you included to keep God's Hpoly Commandments. You further say that we including yourself breaks everyone of God's commandments every day. Such honesty is to be commended. But I am left baffled that you then suggest that if we do not strife to live an almost perfect Christian life and if someone does something like smoking they should consider if they are reallyb a Christian. Why should they if all Christians every day break all of God's commandments?"
- I indeed said all people including myself fail miserably to keep God's commandments daily. By this I was appealing to the basis of the law: loving God (1st great commandment) and loving your neighbor (2nd). And I came up with this conclusion based on the following questions: 1) Have you today truly loved God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, as He deserves? 2) Have you today truly loved your neighbor as yourself, in every degree and respect, as called by God to do? And if anyone answers yes to these questions, they are arrogant, blind, and idolatrous. For in this sense each and every one of us breaks the commandments of God miserably, as none of us is capable of loving God like He deserves or loving our fellow man in every degree at all times as God intended. Knowing this truth will keep a man who, perhaps, may be able to keep himself from committing adultery or murder or hate/lust all day, from becoming proud and developing trust in his own righteousness. I have never said we must strive to live an almost perfect Christian life, I never even hinted to the word perfection! I have stressed many times before that I was NOT talking about perfection, in order to prevent such an occurence as this from occurring.

OK, I'm awake now. If I am honest I believe it would have been better for you to admit at the least that your original statements on this issue were very misleading to say the least. But as you now seem to be saying that no-one can obey the law except to a limited degree I am happy to leave that there. Why not preach on Rom3:31?

"This is the tragedty I have seen all my life. Ministers and over zealous Christians demanding how pure and high a level of Christianity must be obtained when in truth they cannot themselves aspire to such a level and so it is true. 'They tie up heavy loads and put them on mens shoulders, but they themselves are not willi9ng to lift a finger to move them.' Matt23:4. 'Woe to you teachers ofr the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You shut the kingdom of Heaven in mens faces. You yourselves do not enter nor will you let those enter who are trying.' Matt23:13"
- Here you have accused me of being one of those over zealous ministers or Christians who, according to your usage of Matthew 23:4,13, are condemned hypocrites. I have never demanded, nor do I today, that Christians must reach a certain high level of purity. This is legalism at its best and those verses are properly applied to people who believe such lies. But you have misquoted such condemning verses against me because you've mistakenly said I've believed and taught the very things the Pharisees did, when in fact I condemn the Pharisees' hypocrisy just as much as you do.

It is very easy fo all of us(myself included) to berate the people the Pharisees were but still to act like them. I do believe`some of your initial statements would crush the new Christian, this I admit is my concern. We do not struggly ourselves against sin, we look to Christ and trust him, that is how we struggle against sin, and Spurgeon agrees. I will seperately quote him for this
You said, "We receive the Holy Spirit, not by law keeping(being good or pure enough) but by faith. And we receive the power for miracles by faith, not by law keeping/being good enough or worthy enoughy."
- I do not believe nor have I ever said that we receive the Holy Spirit or power for miracles by law keeping. I 100% believe and teach that we receive the Holy Spirit and power to do anything for God by the grace of God alone through faith alone.

I am glad you agree on this

You said, "We are saved from our sins by faith in Christ. We are justified, sanctified by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirits power."
- I 100% believe and teach that we are saved from our sins only by the grace of God through faith in Christ. We are justified, sanctified, and glorified by God in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You seem to disagree that we are sanctified by faith in Christ as well as the power of the Holy Spirit. You need to understand Rom7:5-11 that is the key.

You said, "I would invite people to read your comments and decide for themselves whether you have almost fully spoken of someones Christianity hinging on them being pure and Holy enough to enter Heaven."
- I do not believe nor have I ever said that our salvation depends on our being pure or holy enough to enter Heaven. I believe that there is no one living who is pure or holy enough to enter Heaven. I believe that if someone were to use their holiness and purity as the reason or grounds for which they should be worthy of Heaven, that God would utterly condemn them to Hell for bribing Him with their own righteousness, which is really filthy rags in His sight.

This is for others to judge as I indicated
You asked, "Do you regularly when preaching or talkingb to non Christiansd explain to them that Christ died for every sin a Christian can commit(if thery are sincerely looking to Christ and trusting him)? Do you tell them that no Christian is under law? Do you tell them it is the law that arouses the sinful passions in us, and do you tell them Paul was consumed by list by trying and failing to obey the Ten Commandmennts?"

- I always tell unbelievers when discussing how a person is saved that Christ died for all the sins of His people, past, present, and future, and that it is only by His sacrifice and atonement on the cross that they are made perfect before God, and that He alone is the only One in whom they can trust for salvation, apart from trusting in personal righteousness or anything else. I teach that no Christian is under the law, but has been set free from the law, because being under the law requires perfect obedience in order to enter into life, and none are perfect; I tell them we are under grace. I am not sure about your last 2 questions, I would ask you to quote the particular Scriptures but I fear that would deviate from the rest of my post which will be lengthy. So we can save this for another time.

I have already answered this. You should have put your final answer to this here, it would have been more sincere lets say

You asked, "Do you tell them that by dying to the law and living by faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they will have their victory, and that in their own strength they cannot do a thing. Do you constantly tell them it is not about being 'good enough' but faith in Christ, andf that ther only righteousness for Heaven we will ever have is Christ dying for us on the cross"
- I teach that victory is only won in Christ alone by Christ alone. I teach that there is nothing we can do to be saved. I teach that it is never about us being good enough, for we are perfect in the eyes of God because of the merits of Jesus Christ alone. Righteousness is required in order to enter Heaven but this is only the righteousness of Christ; our personal righteousness is nothing and in fact filthy rags in God's eyes. I put no confidence in my flesh; all my confidence goes in the power and saving grace of God in Christ.

If you believe all of this, you should not let something like smoking question if someone may go to Heaven. We are all different, what for one may be bad sin, for another may not be. I hope you understand whatt I mean

You said, "What God wants is a sincere person who knows in his heart that he is a worthless sinner and that in himself he cannot achieve what God requires. He accepts it has to be what God can do in him, not what he can do himself."
- I believe that God wants is someone who is completely, utterly, hopeless, helpless, and worthless, begging on their knees before Him for His grace trembling in humility, brokenness, and contrition. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." God saves the one who trusts in nothing of himself, or of man, or of the flesh, or of anything save the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then is it not also true that when somerone becomes a Christian they need to realise that they can do nothing but trust in Jesus and rely on the Holy Spirits power
You said, "Paul said we get everything from God we strove for by law(being good /pure enough) by instead trusting in His Son."
- We indeed get absolutely everything from God according to His own mercy, grace, and determined will; not by anything we do or strive for.

I am a bit confused here because you have said we must strive for things, i would qualify that by saying not in our own strength or effort

You said, "It was the people who had Jesus crucified that demanded so much and that the people fully obeyed the law, and yet these Pharisees and Saducees themselves could not obey the law."
- I have never demanded either of myself or of any other person that they must fully obey the law, either the law of Moses or the law of Christ.

Then please read your previous comments and consider if they could not be put more emphatically lets say on this point

You said, "I believe the difference in us is I believe of a sanctification of faith in Chjrist who died for me, not by looking at striving to obey laws/commandments. I found that did not work."
- I believe as well of a sanctification of faith in Christ and not by striving to obey laws and commandments. Therefore, there is absolutely no difference in this respect.

This I am heartened indeed to read, for this is what Spurgeon believes, but I do wonder why much emphasis was originally put by you on the law, I wioll leave it at that unless you wish to discuss my answer further

You said, "We must tell people of a grace, an Amazing Grace of God sending His Son to die for their sins while they were yet without strengty We must tell them it is not by their striving to be 'good enough' thast God iws pleased, but if they trust in His precious son who died for them"
- I indeed tell people this very message, that God, before the foundation of the world, purposed to send His Son to die for the sins of His people, when as yet they were wicked sinners, enemies of God, and only by the saving precious grace of God that they were redeemed and given eternal life. They did nothing to gain this or maintain it; except that it was only gained and is only maintained by God in Christ. There is nothing at all any person can do in order to get to Heaven or to make God pleased.

The message is love, mercy, compassion. It is in his heart a man is justified by faith, not some of his natural weakness. Faith in Christ can overcome them, as long as we put the horse before the cart

 

[QuestionTime]

There is nobody alive who can keep any of God's commandments perfectly. Each and every one of us fails miserably to keep any of the commandments of God perfectly as He requires. This appeals in many respects to 1) that he who is guilty of breaking one is guilty of all; 2) the law is fulfilled in perfect love to God and man; 3) we are unable to even detect the hidden sins deep within our being; 4) we have no way of knowing if we've kept the commandment perfectly because of principle #3; 5) who alive can say they are able to keep any one of God's commandments perfectly?

God asks you to do what you cannot do Dane? So what then, God's standards are not to be kept? God expects less of us than what He commands? That doesn't seem to fit with God's promises:

Deuteronomy 30:
6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 36:
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Perhaps you need to read Wesley's "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection," or his "The Character of a Methodist." Both are just a Google search away.

John Wesley -
'Exactly agreeable to this are his words in the first chapter: "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin." And again: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Now, it is evident the apostle here speaks of a deliverance wrought in this world. For he saith not, The blood of Christ will cleanse (at the hour of death, or in the day of judgment), but it "cleanseth," at the present time, us living Christians "from all sin." And it is equally evident, that if any sin remain, we are not cleansed from all sin.

Your Wesley quote comes from his Explanatory Notes? He was describing what the Psalmist meant, not his personal experience.

Quest

 

[livingbygrace]

Quotes from. 'All of Grace by Charles Spurgeon

We have seen that God justifies, that he justifieth the ungodly and that he justifies them through faith in th precious blood of Jesus. We now have to see the condition these ungodly ones are in when Jesus works out their salvation.
Many newly awakened persons are not only troubled about their sin but about their moral weakness. They have no strength with which to e3scape from the mire into which they have fallen, nor to keep out of it in the days to come. They not only lament over what they have done, but over what they cannot do. They feel powerless, helpless and spiritually lifeless. It may sound odd to say that they feel dead but yet it is so.
They are in their own opinion incapable of all good. They cannot travel the road to Heaven for their bones are broken. In fact they are without strength. Happily it is written as the commendation of God's love for us.
'When we were yet without strength in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

I don't believe Spurgeon is saying that these new believers are expected to struggle against sin, they have no strength, no0r can they strive in the Christian weay, it is simply for them to look to Christ and trust him.

Personally(Spurgeon speaking) I could never have overcome my own sinfulness, I tried and failed. My evil tendancies were too much for me, I cast my guilty soul on him. And then I received a conquering principal by which I overcame my sinful self. The doctrine of the cross can be used to slay sin like the old warriors used huge two handed swords and mowed down their foes at every stroke. There is nothing like faith in the sinners fiend(Jesus) it overcomes all evil.

I believe that is proof that to Spurgeon sin is overcome by faith in Christ alone and the Spirits power.

We do not strive and struggle against sin to be free of it, go by Spurgeon. Our struggle is to making sure we continue to trust in Jesus

We trust in JEsus for what we cannot do ourselves. If it were in our power, why would we need to look to him? It is ours cto believe, it is the Lord's to create us anew.

We are talking about the new Christian here. Notice no mention of law or being good enough, the obstacles to victory have been removed. Striving in ourselves, trying to be good enough, earning our way to Heaven, the law.These are what cause deafeat, faith in Christ the victory

A dark fear haunts the minds of many who are coming to Christ. I believe that this fear i8s often the Father of the fact that some who have been afraid to trust Christ for all time and eternity have failed because they had a temporary faith which never went far enough top save them. They set out trusting Jesus in a measure but looking to themselves for continuance and perseverence in the Heavenward way.

Hope for thjis great thing. Hope for it as a gift of grace and nort as the wages of work or as the product of your own energy

We are kept by the power of God through faith until the coming of salvation. The righteouss also shall hold on this way. Not as the result of their own merit or strength but as a gift of free and undeserved favour, those who believe asre preserved in Jesus Christ

The Lord is able to keep the feet of his saints and He will do it if we will trust him to do so.

We have3 sins to mourn over, but these are not the kinds of faults which would prove us to be out of Christ. We will be clear of hypocrisy, deceit, hatred, and delight in sin, for those would be fatal charges.

Theyu are exerts from briefly skimming the book. I repeat, we have to steer clear of the law, and persoinal goodness, and personal striving and personal struggling against sin, especially witrh the new believer, it is vital. These are things that will encourage sin in them. Spurgeon said it was for the new believer to cling to Christ and trust him, as a limpet to a rock. The power of sin(the law) is not involved in faith, none are the weaknesses of the flesh, because the highest law of all is in operation, faith in Christ.

So I would say when you speak of struggling with sin and it is wrong if we diont, I would qualify that by telling people this is acheived by faith in Christ alone. I believe this is why in so many churches they lack power. The full blooded Gospel is not preached.

Let me put something to you. If a Christian loved God so much and wanted to live his life for him, and he loved him with all his heart, body soul and mind, could he not from the bottom of his heart live totally and I mean totallly without the law.

Take time to really stop and reflect on what that would mnean. We all say we don't live under law, but in effect it is said flippantly. Think if someone truly didn't live under law. Oh the power the communion with God, the freedom, from sin. Because the power of sin is the law

It is strange, but God's laws are written on our hearts and minds, which simply means we want to live as God would have us live, so why do we hanker after the written law?

Satans main aim is to get the Chris5tian to ignore the cross. He is subtle anyway will do. He uses our desire to think we have achieved something in ourselves, us struggling and srtriving in our own effort, cour natural human intellect, and of course the lawe, the true offence of the cdross

Not having a rigfhteousness of my own which comes from the law but that whichj is by faith in Christ. The righteousness that cxomes from God andf is by faith Gal2:21