Arrogant Athiests?

[Calmador]

That sort of argument always terrifies me. Who can't come up with good mundane reasons to avoid ripping each other apart? At the very least, "I don't like it, so they probably won't either, and I don't seem to be more important than anybody" keeps me from doing things to other folks that I'd find personally abhorrent. Heck, game theory shows me that I'm probably better off not stabbing my neighbor, even if she happens to have the milk in her fridge that I want for my cookies.

Clearly there are people out there that don't seem to, even in our human understanding we recognize there is evil.... now why can't you recognize the good, which can only be God.

Don't you see that without God, we wouldn't have any understanding of good or evil. Goodness = Perfection. It's like Truth, pure.... but just a tiny spot of evil and it's evil... turning into a lie. That's why we can understand what is good and right because we know that Truth should be pure... when we say, tell me the truth... were not saying, tell me half truth half lie (which together = lie)... not most of the truth and some lie (which together = lie) but all truth. Pure, perfection, thats whats Good... nobody is perfect. Yet because of God's word we can understand to some extent... that goodness is Holy, perfection.

Read it carefully, read it more if you dont get it.

 

[Brandon777]

I find Romans 1 very hard to believe. I think Atheists have their own reasons for not believing in God. Like the fact that He doesn't show Himself to everyone. I've never been one, so I don't know, but I don't see why we have to say they're all arrogant.

 

[Tethered]

You can have a moral identities and immoral ones. Empirical use of game theory will tell you it's usually best to behave morally. It doesn't stop instances where there is information to behave immorally and yet still benefit and be aware of minimal repurcussion... but it doesn't tell you, how you will or should act.


I think rational logic of moral actions is deducable, but the decision to undertake them stems from how we build our self-identity/ego.

The ego perhaps is a choice we make, to assign ourselves a purpose. That choice doesn't have to come from a rational principle, but can come from the emotional pleasure of experiences that turned out well or resentment of others that behave in a manner that infringes your wellbeing (all lots of other things, spiritual upheaval could be a desirable feeling). After all, you have to be the change you want to see, who will follow otherwise? Game theory supports that under this circumstance most people will be moral without the need for conscious logic.

 

[mori]

Don't you see that without God, we wouldn't have any understanding of good or evil.

No, we disagree on this point and I give some examples to the contrary. Merely restating it, as though it's a failure to see rather than a disagreement, isn't helpful. Don't you see?

 

[Calmador]

You can have a moral identities and immoral ones. Empirical use of game theory will tell you it's usually best to behave morally. It doesn't stop instances where there is information to behave immorally and yet still benefit and be aware of minimal repurcussion... but it doesn't tell you, how you will or should act.


I think rational logic of moral actions is deducable, but the decision to undertake them stems from how we build our self-identity/ego.

The ego perhaps is a choice we make, to assign ourselves a purpose. That choice doesn't have to come from a rational principle, but can come from the emotional pleasure of experiences that turned out well or resentment of others that behave in a manner that infringes your wellbeing (all lots of other things, spiritual upheaval could be a desirable feeling). After all, you have to be the change you want to see, who will follow otherwise? Game theory supports that under this circumstance most people will be moral without the need for conscious logic.

Nope, it's always good to do what's moral (defined by God) and it has nothing to do with what benefits you because with that kind of logic... you think exactly like some messed up people that do horrific things for beneficial reasons, like money and power aka beneficial reasons. That's why it shouldn't be about benefits when we talk about morals. God wants us to do right because of him, because of his word and his understanding. Love your enemy...

Matthew 5:46-48

46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Basically what it says is that, everyone loves those who love them... so what different are you then others? But if you love your enemy, that's God's way, to love even your enemy. The difference is God and to do things rightly takes God, takes perfection. We can't do perfection.

Another thing you should understand is when you say usually and most of the time, your clearly allowing some evil so in such thinking a man that says... "ah it's ok if I rape a girl once... and the rest of my life I live a "good" life... I'm a "good" man" The gray area is clearly unacceptable.

God says be perfect... not usually... not it's ok to some evil. That's a far lower standard. No-wonder God calls man's righteousness dirty rags. It's only right and good to be Holy and perfect... but it's clearly evil to allow evil, like you imply.

Jesus loves you, stop trusting yourself, you barely know anything. We barely know anything, go to him, repent. I don't want you to go to Hell.

 

[Calmador]

No, we disagree on this point and I give some examples to the contrary. Merely restating it, as though it's a failure to see rather than a disagreement, isn't helpful. Don't you see?

I see well, like when I saw the spiritual vision that God granted me... when I was angry of not knowing... when I decide to pray and give God faith, trust. He delivered. I can see because of him but you can't without him. And sadly without him, your going to go to hell, for your own good, look for God.

Did you read the paragraph below that sentence?

 

[Tethered]

Nope, it's always good to do what's moral (defined by God) and it has nothing to do with what benefits you because with that kind of logic... you think exactly like some messed up people that do horrific things for beneficial reasons, like money and power aka beneficial reasons. That's why it shouldn't be about benefits when we talk about morals. God wants us to do right because of him, because of his word and his understanding. Love your enemy...

I didn't (mean to) say a self-identity was built on what's moral, or that morality (as a definition) is based on what benefits you/us, but that morality (as an ego is influencable).
I said an ego can be forged from a conscious process or an unconscious process via experience. If you interpret spiritual experience or 'closeness to God' as desirable then fuse that to your ego, you have yourself a christian ego.

 

[Calmador]

I didn't (mean to) say a self-identity was built on what's moral, or that morality (as a definition) is based on what benefits you/us, but that morality (as an ego is influencable).
I said an ego can be forged from a conscious process or an unconscious process via experience. If you interpret spiritual experience or 'closeness to God' as desirable then fuse that to your ego, you have yourself a christian ego.

Alright well its good for people to know anyways.

About experience, well it's taught me evil. You want to learn from your experience, then your learning from evil. The only way to learn good is with God. I don't know if I told you already but goodness is perfection and since we have sins, we are not perfect, were evil. We need to be forgiven and even be born again in God's spirit to be right with God.

You said something about fusing spiritual experience or closeness to God to my "ego"... I can't do the work myself. I can't grab God and make him do what I want or just act it out so I only appear like I'm right with God, everything has to be right, my body, my mind, soul, heart and spirit and the spirit is the biggest deal and only God can deal with that. You have to ask God to do the work for you, to ask him in faith and in truth, to accept him Jesus, as your lord and savior and live out for him. It isn't what were capable of because were only capable of evil, imperfection.

I'm bringing up part of what I mentioned before, usually doesn't cut it. Allowing evil is clearly evil and that's what we always do because were not pure, perfect. So were evil. That's why God send his son, to live perfectly, truly a good man so that Jesus completes this impossible task of perfection, for us. And then because sin requires payment, like in our laws, when someone does something evil, like theft then the thief has to pay a debt or go to jail. There's a payment... so Jesus paid that payment for you and everyone else because he loves us, even though we don't deserve it. He died on the cross so that anyone who believes in him will be forgiven and have every-lasting life. Also really like the Holy spirit in us because I can see and understand now. God is good and makes sense.

 

[Dogma]

Alright well its good for people to know anyways.

About experience, well it's taught me evil. You want to learn from your experience, then your learning from evil. The only way to learn good is with God. I don't know if I told you already but goodness is perfection and since we have sins, we are not perfect, were evil. We need to be forgiven and even be born again in God's spirit to be right with God.

You said something about fusing spiritual experience or closeness to God to my "ego"... I can't do the work myself. I can't grab God and make him do what I want or just act it out so I only appear like I'm right with God, everything has to be right, my body, my mind, soul, heart and spirit and the spirit is the biggest deal and only God can deal with that. You have to ask God to do the work for you, to ask him in faith and in truth, to accept him Jesus, as your lord and savior and live out for him. It isn't what were capable of because were only capable of evil, imperfection.

I'm bringing up part of what I mentioned before, usually doesn't cut it. Allowing evil is clearly evil and that's what we always do because were not pure, perfect. So were evil. That's why God send his son, to live perfectly, truly a good man so that Jesus completes this impossible task of perfection, for us. And then because sin requires payment, like in our laws, when someone does something evil, like theft then the thief has to pay a debt or go to jail. There's a payment... so Jesus paid that payment for you and everyone else because he loves us, even though we don't deserve it. He died on the cross so that anyone who believes in him will be forgiven and have every-lasting life. Also really like the Holy spirit in us because I can see and understand now. God is good and makes sense.

I'm having a hard time formulating a response to your post Calmador, because quite frankly, It doesn't make a lot of sense to me and it is with grammatical errors. I find your first claim "The only way to learn Good is with God", quite far-fetched and narrow-minded. Clearly, there are people that are born into the word without knowledge of a deity(s), and live perfectly good lives without binding themselves to a dogma and or a religious belief system.

There are some apologists that will suggests that God represents the "ultimate good", and thus people who live good lives and aren't necessarily affiliated with a particular monotheistic religion are still embodying God. However, the problem with this argument is if God is this omnibenevolent presence, is a particular action good because God says it is? Or does God say its good because it really is good? If it is the first, than morality is but an illusion of obedience and submission to power (I.E. I do action A because higher authority X tells me to). If it is the latter, than God is ultimately irrelevant in the moral system of empathetic beings (We could be able to achieve 'good' with or without God).

 

[Tethered]

You said something about fusing spiritual experience or closeness to God to my "ego"... I can't do the work myself. I can't grab God and make him do what I want or just act it out so I only appear like I'm right with God

Closeness to God is by doing his will? (If you love me, obey me)
Placing that in your ego, means to place the idea of obeying God as something that is prideful, that your self-esteem is based on. If you don't obey God, you feel guilt.

It works for others ego's self-esteems, if you go against the identity/ego, your ego tell's that you have failed/weak/immoral etc and you submit to undesirable feelings.

 

[Calmador]

Closeness to God is by doing his will? (If you love me, obey me)
Placing that in your ego, means to place the idea of obeying God as something that is prideful, that your self-esteem is based on. If you don't obey God, you feel guilt.

It works for others ego's self-esteems, if you go against the identity/ego, your ego tell's that you have failed/weak/immoral etc and you submit to undesirable feelings.

Can I obey God? Nope, perfection is not something I do, it's something God does and in Faith he does it for us. He did through Jesus Christ. My feelings, my obedience to God is no longer required or matters when it comes to salvation but its something I want to do and something God is working on in my life, sanctification, my flesh and soul is still infected by evil and but God is in my spirit because of my Faith in Jesus Christ so I'm forgiven of all sin and that will grant me heaven, not because of my obedience but because of Jesus Christ's obedience. I'll tty tomorrow, remember Jesus Christ in the equation when you reply.

 

[Calmador]

I'm having a hard time formulating a response to your post Calmador, because quite frankly, It doesn't make a lot of sense to me and it is with grammatical errors. I find your first claim "The only way to learn Good is with God", quite far-fetched and narrow-minded. Clearly, there are people that are born into the word without knowledge of a deity(s), and live perfectly good lives without binding themselves to a dogma and or a religious belief system.

There are some apologists that will suggests that God represents the "ultimate good", and thus people who live good lives and aren't necessarily affiliated with a particular monotheistic religion are still embodying God. However, the problem with this argument is if God is this omnibenevolent presence, is a particular action good because God says it is? Or does God say its good because it really is good? If it is the first, than morality is but an illusion of obedience and submission to power (I.E. I do action A because higher authority X tells me to). If it is the latter, than God is ultimately irrelevant in the moral system of empathetic beings (We could be able to achieve 'good' with or without God).

When God says were good, from my understanding, it's because sin has been covered, forgiven. It's not because were capable of doing good... like you said, does God call what we do good? Nope, he doesn't, because we can't do good, perfection. We can't even live the very next second without God because he holds the universe together and we can't do good without him because good is perfection, Holy. How can we do good then, show God, repentance, humility, and accept him, Jesus as lord and savior so that God, the Holy spirit can work in you and you with God doing the work, you can do good things but all the credit goes to him. We became a part of good, if that makes sense but he gets all the credit.

It's like your an instrument, does a guitar play an awesome song by itself? No the guitarist does. Were instruments and God is the musician.

Let God be your musician. Accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyways I gotta go to sleep, I'll be back tomorrow, go to Church, the book of John is recommended to see the foundation... I read the first few chapters, I can see why so far. I'll pray for you... so yeah sleep time and sorry about the grammar, English is my worst subject.

 

[Dogma]

When God says were good, from my understanding, it's because sin has been covered, forgiven. It's not because were capable of doing good... like you said, does God call what we do good? Nope, he doesn't, because we can't do good, perfection. We can't even live the very next second without God because he holds the universe together and we can't do good without him because good is perfection, Holy. How can we do good then, show God, repentance, humility, and accept him, Jesus as lord and savior so that God, the Holy spirit can work in you and you with God doing the work, you can do good things but all the credit goes to him. We became a part of good, if that makes sense but he gets all the credit.

It's like your an instrument, does a guitar play an awesome song by itself? No the guitarist does. Were instruments and God is the musician.

Let God be your musician. Accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Anyways I gotta go to sleep, I'll be back tomorrow, go to Church, the book of John is recommended to see the foundation... I read the first few chapters, I can see why so far. I'll pray for you... so yeah sleep time and sorry about the grammar, English is my worst subject.

I feel like you just avoided my response entirely. Oh well. Goodnight.

 

[Tethered]

Of course

"If you LOVE me, obey me/my commandments." John 14:15
Obeying a tyrant doesn't mean you place their law into your ego.
Placing something into your ego, means you follow it, because you love it.

I'm not particularly motivated to listen to a preaching seminar tomorrow though. I'll already have been through one in the morning. Empirically speaking, your better off focusing on someone closer to home.

 

[WBerry]

Sorry to jump in so late, but

Nope, it's always good to do what's moral (defined by God) and it has nothing to do with what benefits you because with that kind of logic... you think exactly like some messed up people that do horrific things for beneficial reasons, like money and power aka beneficial reasons. That's why it shouldn't be about benefits when we talk about morals. God wants us to do right because of him, because of his word and his understanding. Love your enemy...

"it's always good to do what's moral" What would you call Robin Hood, Moral or Immoral? Think about what he did, stole from the rich to give to the poor. What he did was immoral, but his cause was moral. Does one out weigh the other? Maybe this is only for God to judge, but surely you must have your own opinion.

 

[Calmador]

Of course

"If you LOVE me, obey me/my commandments." John 14:15
Obeying a tyrant doesn't mean you place their law into your ego.
Placing something into your ego, means you follow it, because you love it.

I'm not particularly motivated to listen to a preaching seminar tomorrow though. I'll already have been through one in the morning. Empirically speaking, your better off focusing on someone closer to home.

If he was a tyrant, he would've make us do everything we wants by force... people not following God's will is clearly evidence of him not being a tyrant. He isn't a tyrant.

I don't want to place God into my ego.... I want to place him in my spirit, the place where only God can dwell. It's not something I'm capable of, my ego... sure I can place christian principles in my mind, in my heart, in my actions (body) in my soul even (I'm sure the ego is in one of those I just mentioned)... but only God can take care of my spirit.

I'm better off following a God, by his grace, that tells me to always do whats good, all credit to him. Instead of a man who tells me to usually be good... in other words, be ok with raping a girl once or any other evil... and then pretending to be good the rest of my life. It's clearly evil to allow evil, like you suggest and it's clearly good to never do evil. God Bless

 

[Calmador]

Sorry to jump in so late, but



"it's always good to do what's moral" What would you call Robin Hood, Moral or Immoral? Think about what he did, stole from the rich to give to the poor. What he did was immoral, but his cause was moral. Does one out weigh the other? Maybe this is only for God to judge, but surely you must have your own opinion.

I do have my own opinion and I'd foolishly say it was moral without God.

The truth is that, it's immoral... no it's not about weighing one with the other. It's about the whole thing. The action, the cause, everything about it, should be good. Robin hood stealing from the people is immoral as far as I can tell.

Just keep in mind that we should avoid doing any kind of evil even if in the end, it'll feed the poor or something to that affect. The poor would be more grateful to you by, by his grace, going about things in good character, God uses it, and perhaps because of your good character those poor people, go to christ and are saved and live in heaven without any needs forever.

 

[Calmador]

I feel like you just avoided my response entirely. Oh well. Goodnight.

About your question, its both.... things are good because God says its good and because it really is good.

Obedience is impossible by ourselves, perfection is the standard of God.

Have you ever lied?

Have you ever stolen?

Have you ever lusted?

Have you ever gotten angry?

Have you ever not put God as #1 in your life?

Have you dishonored your father and/or your mother?

Are you guilty? If so, you'd be eligible for hell.

The list goes on, we're not perfect... we've made mistakes in our lives and because of those mistakes we deserve hell because those mistakes make us evil.

The thing to notice here is that God doesn't make compromises, his a good God and a Just God and WILL take care of Justice and bring judgement to EVERY evil thing thats happened. And his going use hell as punishment, forever tormented.

But we also have a God of Love and Grace (mercy is within grace) and here's more light to your question about obedience. God sent Jesus Christ, himself God, to become a man and Jesus Christ did the obedience part. He was/is perfect and fulfilled the standard of God. He was/is a good man. That very important part is done, the obedience part, for the sake of salvation. And then he sacrifices himself, to pay our debt that we deserve which is death, hell. And resurrects showing us that he did conquer death. So that if you believe in him and his status, through Jesus Christ, man/God... we can link up to God and have a relationship with him. He speaks through others, in signs, spiritual visions... those 3 have happened to me so I know.

The obedience on the part of Christians, it's not for salvation but because we love God and it's right, even tho hell is no longer something to fear... thanks to Jesus Christ. God wants us to be servants and do whats good, ALWAYS.

Some background:

Were composed of 3 layers, our flesh, what you can observe physically. Our soul, what we can observe with our ears to some extent, I repeat to some extent because people lie, listening to people and their personality. Lastly, our spirit, the place where only God can dwell and activate.

Alright now unfortunately because our flesh and soul is still infected, Christians will still be suspect-able to sin, we still have flesh that's accustomed (think reflexes) to sin and our soul isn't perfect either. But God in our spirits will move more into the soul and our soul will guide our flesh and because of God we will be capable of doing perfect good things, credit to God for that.

Without God tho, your in sin and your bound to hell, so I strongly recommend you read the Bible, John is a good place to start and New International Version seems pretty easy to understand. But God will be the one that truly teaches us through the Holy spirit.

Judgment or Love?

Hell or Jesus Christ?

Your choice.

 

[WBerry]

About your question, its both.... things are good because God says its good and because it really is good.

Obedience is impossible by ourselves, perfection is the standard of God.

Have you ever lied?

Have you ever stolen?

Have you ever lusted?

Have you ever gotten angry?

Have you ever not put God as #1 in your life?

Have you dishonored your father and/or your mother?

Are you guilty? If so, you'd be eligible for hell.

The list goes on, we're not perfect... we've made mistakes in our lives and because of those mistakes we deserve hell because those mistakes make us evil.

The thing to notice here is that God doesn't make compromises, his a good God and a Just God and WILL take care of Justice and bring judgement to EVERY evil thing thats happened. And his going use hell as punishment, forever tormented.

But we also have a God of Love and Grace (mercy is within grace) and here's more light to your question about obedience. God sent Jesus Christ, himself God, to become a man and Jesus Christ did the obedience part. He was/is perfect and fulfilled the standard of God. He was/is a good man. That very important part is done, the obedience part, for the sake of salvation. And then he sacrifices himself, to pay our debt that we deserve which is death, hell. And resurrects showing us that he did conquer death. So that if you believe in him and his status, through Jesus Christ, man/God... we can link up to God and have a relationship with him. He speaks through others, in signs, spiritual visions... those 3 have happened to me so I know.

The obedience on the part of Christians, it's not for salvation but because we love God and it's right, even tho hell is no longer something to fear... thanks to Jesus Christ. God wants us to be servants and do whats good, ALWAYS.

Some background:

Were composed of 3 layers, our flesh, what you can observe physically. Our soul, what we can observe with our ears to some extent, I repeat to some extent because people lie, listening to people and their personality. Lastly, our spirit, the place where only God can dwell and activate.

Alright now unfortunately because our flesh and soul is still infected, Christians will still be suspect-able to sin, we still have flesh that's accustomed (think reflexes) to sin and our soul isn't perfect either. But God in our spirits will move more into the soul and our soul will guide our flesh and because of God we will be capable of doing perfect good things, credit to God for that.

Without God tho, your in sin and your bound to hell, so I strongly recommend you read the Bible, John is a good place to start and New International Version seems pretty easy to understand. But God will be the one that truly teaches us through the Holy spirit.

Judgment or Love?

Hell or Jesus Christ?

Your choice.

In your argument you make it sound as if people can only do good through God, which we know isn't true. In fact people sometimes do evil things through God. Like when the majority of America was using the bible to justify slavery. Also you say God is going to use hell as punishment. I have always been confused by the concept of forgiveness/punishment, heaven/hell, etc. If you sin and ask for forgiveness you are forgiven and are allowed into heaven, yes? So when does someone go to hell? If by simply asking for forgiveness, and God being the forgiving God that He is, you can get into heaven, it doesn't really matter what you do in life, to a certain extent, because in the end you can simply ask for forgiveness and you're good to go. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[Mediate]

To be quite honest, this whole thread is entirely subjective on one's own interpretation of the Bible, or for an atheist, their interpretation of what morality is. It is arrogant to assume that all atheists are arrogant. There could be an atheist out there with more knowledge of God and his wisdom than any of us possess. Someone who used to be devout, and strayed, for whatever reason.

In response to the post above, there are many secular religions of Christianity, and some even believe that hell is a redundant belief. That God, in Jesus, has created a way where nobody goes to hell.

You know, perhaps even some religions intertwine. I believe that God is singular, and there is only one God, but different religions see Him in different light. 'There are many roads to enlightenment', kind of thing.

For instance, people who follow Buddhism will tell you that Jesus, in his 'missing years', went to Nepal and taught and learnt. That his followers there founded a Church called the Church of Jesu, and that he is the perfect example of morality. They also will have you believe that everyone gets chance after chance at life until they eventually reach what Buddhists call enlightenment.

What works for us, may not work for others, simply as a matter of predisposition to a certain manner of thought. Therefore, perhaps, Jesus and God reach people in ways which speak to them personally. And I believe that eventually, we will all be returned to where we came from. We were made from God, I think we will return there.

There are reasons for there to be different religions. There are reasons for atheists. And if God loves us all the same, and wants us all to be with Him, then His Will will be done. Nothing is out of His reach, nor his sight, nor his power.