Arrogant Athiests?

Calmador · Feb 21, 2012

I wouldn't call it an argument. I was trying to say that we can only do good through God and we know it's true. The thing about good is that it = perfection. It's like say if I were to ask you to be honest with me... what would you expect of me... being 10% truthful? 50% truthful... or 100% truthful? I'd imagine youd want me to be 100% truthful. That's how good is, 100% and if you expect less then that's where you stepped into evil... or a dishonest person, a lair.

Here's another example, people say that "good" people are the ones that, usually do good. So that's the standard in society. And I imagine you'd agree, if not then maybe your starting to get it.

Anyways on that, I'd like to ask you... is it evil to allow evil to happen? I think so and I imagine you'd agree aswell so if you agree to both of these statements.

"good" people are the ones that usually do good. (allows some evil)

and

It's evil to allow evil.

Then you have a contradiction and what you call moral is immoral. You see studying both these statements. We end up realizing that only God can be good because good = perfection. And us... were not perfect.. we do allow evil... and because of that we are evil because of our sins.

Also remember rape is evil... so think about that, if your thinking it's ok to allow evil.

Next thing is how supposably people use God to do evil... for starters.. they actually have to literally be using God.

First thing to notice is that when were talking about using God to do evil. It's asusmed that God truly does exist. That being said... God is almight and all powerful and only good. How can people, overpower an almighty and all powerful God AND then make him do evil when his only good?

The answer is obvious, people can't over-power and make God do evil.

So what really happens when we notice people using the Bible, God's word to justify evil.. is people manipulating God's word to do evil.... just using it for thier own agenda.. and God is innocent about that because it's PEOPLE who do those evil and try to use God's word as a launching area.

To make it clear... can a rapist read the bible in his own subjective way for his own agenda in raping? Yes he can, and say that one word means this and another means that and until he makes up this false claim.

About heaven and hell, I can see why your confused. Eeeek man, If you recieve forgivness yes you'll go to heaven and be forgiven of all sin, furture aswell so yes hell is no longer something to fear. However you being a true convert are clearly expected to have the holy spirit in you and because of the holy spirit, you'll want to follow Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, not because of hell but because you'd love God to want to follow him, simple as that. Also, if you read James, the book in the Bible..... I'll qoute some scripture that answers you very well.

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If you have faith, evidently.. perhaps not right away but eventually your gonna see some works aka moral actions by and from God.

If you want to read more about it, here's a link to a passage to clarifymore.

James 2:14-26 NKJV - Faith Without Works Is Dead - What does - Bible Gateway

So nope, if you have faith, you can't just run around and your free to sin however much you want. Because then your faith isn't real.

In english, hey you believe in God and all his teachings? You have faith then guess what, your gonna follow through and by his grace avoid sin, have works. If your not following through in his spirit then your faith isn't real, you don't really believe what you believe.

It's like Im a "college student", I go to college and I sit there in class and do nothing. Am I really a college student, technically sure..... but truly I'm not because a college student would do his work, pay attenion, take exams.

Same thing, hopefully that makes sense, if you have anymore questions please keep asking ok... but have an open heart to God... the most important thing you read was the scripture. God loves you ok, you got God all wrong.... he was willing to come down to earth and die for you, that's how much he loves you, he died, as Jesus Christ for you and everyone in the world. So yeah, I hope I helped you.

Dogma · Feb 22, 2012

Your input is neither consistent or coherent. Try focusing on making a single point while using details and evidence to support your assertions. This will make your writing more readable.

WBerry · Feb 25, 2012

Calmador said:

If it is evil to ALLOW evil, as you put it, would that not make God evil? He allows evil to continue everyday without interference, for the most part. Sure he puts an end to some evil, but you said it's not good enough to be 10% good or 50% good and since God IS perfection he would always be 100% good, perfect. Does that mean that allowing evil as God does is actually good?

Mediate · Feb 28, 2012

Firstly, God allow's us free will, as His first rule. That is different, in a way, to allowing evil outright. He wants US to be the ones who stop the evil, through our own volition. All He ever tells us is how we should stamp out evil in the world. turn away from it. But He has to have us do it off our own choice. The choice that even atheists have.

Dude653 · Feb 28, 2012

A fool sayeth in his heart, there is no God......enough said.......

preschoolteacher24 · Feb 28, 2012

exactlly my point lol

Dogma said:

HerrGeschichte · Feb 28, 2012

bravewolf said:

1) Work on your grammar skills, but that was just because I can be a bit OCD on grammar and spelling.
2) I am not arrogant at all, ask those who know me. If you don't them, I will introduce you to them.
3) This is a stereotype. I could ask you why all religious people are ignorant of the science that hard working atheist scientists have provided the world, but I don't.
4) We don't waste our lives. My goal in life at this time (and I am 16 btw) is to try and amass as much knowledge as possible. I don't think that's a waste of time. Now then, you could make the argument that I may be researching the wrong information: I will let you say that, because it's opinion based, and I let people have their own opinions.
5) Several Different scientists that work in area's (such as proving evolution) are christian. My anthropology teacher showed us a video of a microbiologist who was working on proving that germs do in fact evolve to adapt to medication that is given, and every Sunday he was at Mass, staying for an hour after words to talk to his priest man-to-man.

To sum it up: Atheists may be arrogant, but so are Christians. We are all human, and while we may have different views on the world, that doesn't mean we are a seperate race unto ourselves, giving us different emotions and mannerisms.

P.S. If I made you angry, I'm sorry, but this post was something that I could not morally ignore and not be plagued about later on tonight.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

I have a lot of respect for science and some of the things it has done for us, but it does leave a few unanswered questions.

1. If the universe began in a state where all the billions of billions of billions of tonnes of matter where confined in a space the size of absolute infinitely nothing, and time did not exist, and the 9 spatial dimensions, and one temporal dimension (String theory), were intertwined, doesn't that contradict the laws of physics themselves?

2. If the laws of physics are indisputable, the above has to be false. Otherwise, the laws of physics are infinitely flawed.

3. If, by some quirk of physical law, all that matter could be squashed into that size of a space, who lit the spark for it to expand and explode?

4. If it spontaneously just happened, how did it spontaneously just happen with no force behind it? Newtowns first law. Every action, has an equal and opposite reaction. This is an infinite contradiction, right at the heart of science.

5. When it expanded, and cooled, and formed, how can we be sure that there wasn't, or isn't, an invisible dimension, or a separate, second temporal dimension that is unseen? A special form of time. Or another space, or place, that we cannot comprehend?

6. In all it's vast, infinite mystery, how can we be sure that it did not in fact expand at a higher rate for seven days until we were formed, then slow down?

7. How can we even be properly sure that we really do exist and we aren't a figment of an imagination? (have you ever felt how real a dream can feel?)

8. Science is based on strict, indisputable laws. But among all it's laws, it is still unable to put a definitive answer on how the inside of an atom behaves differently than the outside world beyond the atom itself. Why?

9. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only changed in form, then how was energy even created in the first place?

10. What is the meaning of life if there is no God?

11. Why do we have consciousness, and a moral conscience, if we are just animals?

12. Why is there such a massive gap between man and animal in terms of intelligence? What reason is there for us to be the holders of the power in the world?

13. With all our scientific knowledge, why, in all probability, do most of us ultimately come to a conclusion that we need a bigger purpose than just 'being here'?

14. How does such a perfectly assembled, fantastically beautiful world come into existence out of chance?

There are a million more, but you get the idea.

I also have to point out that the bible was telling us of something being created from nothing, long before science was.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

Science works well for the modern day. But when you go back all that time and ask these questions about the beginning, there are no answers that science can provide. There just aren't.

mori · Mar 5, 2012

Mediate said:

In general, I don't discuss physics with anybody who can't phrase their questions in terms of equations. A lot of what you've written indicates that, while you've got some basic familiarity with the ideas proposed by cosmology and quantum physics, you haven't worked with these disciplines to any real extent. Don't expect answers that make sense until you do.

This is not an insult, but an invitation. I would treat anyone similarly who, for example, took issue with the idea of infinitely small quantities but had never formally computed a limit on paper. However:

Interestingly, you seem to assume that there is a meaning of life if there is a god. Why is that? Because a more powerful being decides for you that your life has a particular meaning? Most atheists would argue that the meaning of their life can be similarly decided, but by ourselves. Keep in mind that the meaning of life a god decides for us can't be objective, as if there were meanings outside of god, and the Bible doesn't even say it is. Our meaning comes from God's pleasure in Christian thought - for atheists, someone a little closer to home determines meaning.

The misunderstanding in your question is straightforward - "just" animals. We have observed that some animals have the capacity for (moral) consciousness. There's no difficulty here unless you assume animals can't, but then you'll need to defend that, especially since, as humans are classified scientifically as animals, it appears to be false.

We are extraordinary because we are so intelligent. If no animal had arisen which was so intelligent, the question would never arise. In other words, there is no reason "why," there is just a "how."

I'm glad you bring up the concept of probability here, as there are many examples in probability and statistics in which human common sense is, in fact, terribly misleading. Simpson's paradox is a good example. Freedman's paradox is more pertinent here, however.

In other words, because our model selectors are built to ascribe meaning, even when there isn't any. Consider the human who hears a stick crack in the woods and assumes it's just a branch falling. He survives a lot less often than the person who thinks it's a leopard and gets his weapons.

We are selected for ascribing meaning.

If you assert it was perfectly assembled, it couldn't have. Of course, that assertion is the key, isn't it? Regardless, it wasn't just pure chance, as if all configurations of the universe were ultimately equally likely. Science gives a way to (roughly) assign probabilities to different states. What you describe as perfectly assembled, we see as full of self-replication entities, which is much more likely than a universe in which no such things ever exist as, once they begin, they tend to explode in number.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

Well, is there a meaning without God? I mean, why are we all here, if we just came from nothing, and got here by chance? What real purpose is there in that? For us to live, survive as long as we can, raise a family, have some joy, then die and rot back into the ground? A bit hopeless, is it not?

Human's are 'scientifically' classed as animals. But classing species is just something someone came up with, really. I mean, if he/she (the person who invented animal classification) had wanted, he/she could have classed humans as completely separate, down to our monumental reasoning and thought abilities, as opposed to every other living thing on earth. My 'misunderstanding', assumes that your view is right, but nobody is ever completely right when it comes to perspective. Perspectives are different depending on the individual. My perspective is that we are much, much more than animals. We are humans. Animals are primal, and instinctual more than anything, But we are thoughtful, and mindful more than anything. Whether science classes us as animals is irrelevant. The question I asked was why do we feel bad when we upset a family member, for instance? It isn't out of fear. I mean, what can they do to us? They will be upset but they won't hit us, or hate us, so why do we feel bad? Our conscience is a beautiful thing and it is much more than just an evolutionary trait.

I agree. Our intelligence is what makes us special. But why do we have that intelligence? For what purpose? If it is for mere survival, like animals, then why have other animals not developed such an extensive intelligence also? There is no animal that even comes close. Yes, there would be no question if there was no human intelligence, but there is human intelligence, so there IS a question.

That may be so, but that sense of paranoia 'in the woods' is going to be something that even a fox will have. A dog. A cat. Any animal. But we have something more than that. We do not live in the woods. We build houses so the leopard can't get in. We live in cities where we know we are safe. But we don't really think of it as survival any more. I wouldn't move to a city to keep the leopards away. I'd move because I like the bright lights, or it has lots of nice, marriageable women in it. Or because the music scene is good.

How can an infinite universe expand and become more infinite? If it is infinite already? Infinity is a term to describe the never-ending. Infinity plus one, does not exist. It cannot.

I assert that it has come together in such a way that it works perfectly. Everything reacts and acts as it should in a physical sense. But how? How does nothing become energy, become matter, atoms, element zero becomes lots of different elements, becomes compounds, becomes living things? How does metal and dust and heat and nothing, become something, with the ability to study what it came from? That is far too perfect to have just happened out of 'probability' (I won't say chance). I think, the probability of it all is, there has to be a God. I mean, if there was nothing, why didn't it become something else? It specifically became life. But why that? Why not something else? Why matter as we know it? Why atoms? Why grass? Why emotion?

I know human's tend to make meaning when there is none, and you say it's all down to survival instinct. Everything in evolution is down to survival, but don't you think that's just a little too much of a cold, dog eat dog world and that with a little compassion it can be so much more than that?

We are past just living for survival. We are long, long past that. It is an archaic idea. It is backward. It is obsolete. There is enough knowledge and wealth on this earth for everyone to live peacefully and in harmony with each other ( and I am not assuming you don't think the same way).

I don't take offence to your higher intellect, you clearly have worked hard to get where you are in terms of smarts. But the fact of the matter is, I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. But there is no disputing this; the world would be a much better place with a little love. That's what the bible is all about. It isn't about hating on you. It isn't about judging you and spiting you. It's about coming together and making the world a place with a little more love in it. Cause we're long past surviving just for the sake of it and have been for thousands of years.

mori · Mar 5, 2012

Mediate said:

If you're hoping for an eternal existence, yes. But a lot of us aren't. It wasn't promised to us, doesn't seem to be in the cards, and hoping for it seems as reasonable as hoping to wake up and find a million dollars in the bank. Is the universe cold because it doesn't manifest an ice cream sundae on your chest every time you wake up? Obviously not. Who is disappointed when these things don't happen? Nobody, because they weren't banking on them.

We're not banking on immortality. It would have been nice, and it sucks that we get so many questions and so little time to answer them, but that's ok.

With apologies, that's not the usual usage of the word in the scientific context. You're going to have to pick one or the other - do you want to talk vaguely or ask scientific questions? If you say that humans aren't animals, you're not going to be speaking a language a scientist understands, so the questions you phrase to him won't be meaningful.

Of course, I agree that our species has capacities that most don't. But this is a question of scale, not of a completely different order.

You assume that there must be a why or purpose. Again, like immortality, I wasn't promised a why or purpose and don't seem to think it's reasonable. As the Buddha put it, the question doesn't fit the case. You might as well ask what the french fries of Saturn mean.

To abuse the word, however, these things served a "purpose" in terms of evolution. That is how they came to be so prevalent in humans. That's a "how," however.

Primarily because we did it first and domesticated or simply killed everything else that was a threat. Think of it this way - why did the Grand Canyon end up like it did? Rain tends to fall with a uniform distribution, so shouldn't the ground have been worn away equally everywhere? In fact, no. Once a phenomenon like this begins, it tends to recruit from its environment the resources that make it accelerate and, simultaneously, prevents other Grand Canyons from evolving two miles away.

What? I haven't begun to discuss my views of cosmology. In any case, there is a way an infinite universe can expand in a meaningful sense.

Imagine a piece of graphing paper, with a minor twist - this one is infinitely large. Now, zoom in on it. You notice how the distances between the lines are apparently getting farther apart? That's what expansion means in an infinite universe. You're right - the absolute measure of the universe doesn't expand, but the contents are all moving apart from each other. (If you take issue with the moving POV, you need to think about it as if it were an infinite piece of silly putty you're stretching, but I've never been able to conceptualize this. Where do you grab it?!)

You might enjoy knowing, by the way, that there are different orders of infinity and mathematical systems in which infinity + 1 is not necessarily infinity - these are called nonstandard analysis. Surprisingly, these sometimes yield useful ways of looking at math.

I say that survival instinct is the means by which our obsession with reason came into being. I don't say it's the way it should necessarily be used, however. You're assuming far too much here. I think we can grow out of our evolutionary traits, even if we need to know where they came from.

As an example - people these days are tending towards obesity because they evolved from animals which didn't have a surplus of food and ate whenever they could to store up fat for lean times. I don't think this is a mandate, however - people should understand their evolutionary heritage and use their big, wet brains to transcend it.

You are absolutely right - there is no dispute. You have nothing to convince me of here.

Not really. The Bible posits the existence of a transcendent God who is intimately involved in creation, going so far as to sacrifice himself to redeem it. That's what the Bible is about - it's hardly just a recommendation of a little more love. No Christian would accept that if I told them I was a Christian because I wanted a little more love, right?

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

Wrong actually. Jesus came to earth and said 'this is my one commandment to you, above all others; Love thy neighbour'.

He taught us that to love even a random person (love defined in 1 Corinthians chapter 13), encompasses all the earlier commandments. God sacrificed His human Son to wipe away the sins of humanity, should they have the humility to ask Him for forgiveness. But in order to be given that forgiveness, we also have to love others, and show them the same compassion that He will show us. That is Christianity in a nutshell.

I am not 'speaking vaguely', I am determining the correlation (or lack thereof) between science and religion. This is, after all, a Christian Forum.

Buddha would probably tell me and you that what we are talking about has no meaning at all unless our conversation is fraught with love.

Immortality may not be promised to you, but it is to me, at a price.

Yes I somewhat understand the graphing paper explanation. But aren't you really just zooming in on something? It isn't the lines that are moving further apart, it is my own perspective? Isn't that what string theory teaches? Something about how time dictates the way the whole universe works and how we see it? It's to do with when the universe stops expanding and what happens to the temporal dimension, seeing as it was born out of the explosion of the universe.

My point is, in my belief, the universe is too complex for there not to be a creator. It is too large for there not to be a purpose. And it is most definitely too mysterious for us to think we can explain it away.

To me, the big bang came into being because God breathed life into nothingness. That is my belief.

I also believe that when I do something good, some magical force descends into my heart and gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

I believe that a fantastic, all knowing God loves us all and that when I see Him I should bow my head in shame so He can tell me to stand up and go play in the garden. That's my belief.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

To something you said earlier. Yes, a life with God has a further meaning than one without Him. Most definitely it does. I wasn't always Christian, and I was a pretty bad person at times. I always thought 'there must be something more'. I can tell you first hand that a life with a set of moral guidelines to follow, and the amazing feeling you get for following them, is far superior to any meaning that I made for myself.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

Morality only stops becoming subjective when everything you follow teaches you that morality is about others, not about yourself.

mori · Mar 5, 2012

... ouch.

Mediate said:

So you're telling me I can be a valid Christian if I endeavor to love everyone else, even if I'm an atheist? Of course, Jesus taught about love, and we're not disputing that, but the major point of the Bible is that God revealed himself in his plan for redemption, even going so far as to become incarnate.

This is exactly the reason why I talk in parentheses about the stretching. The zooming in example, however, gives you a better way to visualize the outcome, if not the mechanism. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up when I explicitly addressed it beforehand.

String theory is primarily about stuff. In the old days, we used to think things were made of atoms, full stop. Now we know atoms are made of something. String theory says that everything is made of something simpler. That's about it - what you're talking about in the second and third sentences are more general cosmology.

Without any ambiguity, that was clear from the beginning. I disagree, which is equally clear. I misunderstood - I thought you wanted to discuss alternative answers to your questions.

I'm sorry, in these last three posts you've retreated into preaching. I'm going to bow out here.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

But like I say, I have massive respect for science, as far as it's real uses go. Medically it's fantastic, industrially also. But as a moral teaching, it's a bit pants.

mori · Mar 5, 2012

I should correct myself, by the way, before anybody else does it for me - the strings of string theory are not really "simpler" than what we previously conceptualized as fundamental particles. I should say, at best, that they're smaller. Sometimes.

Mediate · Mar 5, 2012

What are you so afraid of? lol Why come to a Christian Chat room, jump into a conversation about the universe and God, then run away when people start talking about God? I'm not out to hurt you. Not out to brainwash you and turn you into some sort of freak haha it really makes me laugh. Have a nice day mate.

mori · Mar 5, 2012

It's not fear, it's disappointment. You had a list of questions you seemed to want to discuss. I put a good deal of effort into it. We got to a certain point, and you started listing again your beliefs as if they were unclear, leaving behind the actual questions.

Further, I sense you weren't reading too carefully, since you were raising objections I'd foreseen. Pragmatism, not fear, makes a person stop typing when he senses it's not being read.

Anyway, further attempts at hooking me won't work. If you call me fearful or whatever, my silence is not assent. Please understand this is because you handled the conversation poorly, not because I'm scared.

Arrogant Athiests?

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