Catholicism

[Matt]

Being raised Roman Catholic does not make you Catholic. I was also raised Roman Catholic, but I agree with the site owner that Catholicism is heretical, and I stand against their heretical teachings steadfastly. If you come to a protestant site where the official position is that Catholicism is heretical, and defend Catholicism, you will be taken to task for it. Why would you identify as being Catholic, anyways? Are you not simply a Christian? Do you accept the two ex cathedra dogmas? Do you pray to dead people when Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father? Do you believe Mary intercedes for you when Scripture attests to the fact that there is only one mediator between God and man? Do you not believe that Mary had other children after Jesus was born despite the fact that His brothers and sisters are identified in Scripture, and two of His brothers have books in the Bible? Do you believe Mary never died when there is nothing in Scripture to support such a fanciful belief and everything else that flows from such elevations of her above and beyond how Jesus Christ viewed her? Do you elevate Roman Catholic traditions above the revealed written Word of God? Do you promote the lies the RCC has fabricated? If you do then you should call yourself a Catholic, and you will be confronted about your disturbing beliefs on a protestant site where quite a few members repudiate such heresies.

WOW....really?

Take a breath and relax. Nobody asked for a questionnaire which vilifies those raised Catholic. Your time as part of the Catholic Church is not in question and it probably differs from others.

Your questionnaire seems no different to the experience in chat described in my post. You have missed the point. Your judgement of myself as an individual is not being asked for.

I only ask that everyone is treated with respect in chat. Nothing more. It's the christian thing to do.

Bless you all.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Well i've seen people address non catholics who may follow false doctrines here. I'll just say for the most part it's not done in a loving manner. Whenever you see a thread about "works" you will find many arguments

Yes, but people generalize more with Catholics ... as if they were all one person with one idea and interpretation.

 

[PrynceNY]

Yes, but people generalize more with Catholics ... as if they were all one person with one idea and interpretation.

Well to my knowledge most catholics don't read the bible much if at all. Combine that with the false doctrines they teach at the church alot more of them are conditioned to be deceived than non catholics. Without that biblical knowledge to discern the truth they are at risk

 

[Magenta]

WOW....really?

Take a breath and relax. Nobody asked for a questionnaire which vilifies those raised Catholic. Your time as part of the Catholic Church is not in question and it probably differs from others.

Your questionnaire seems no different to the experience in chat described in my post. You have missed the point. Your judgement of myself as an individual is not being asked for.

I only ask that everyone is treated with respect in chat. Nothing more. It's the christian thing to do.

Bless you all.

Wow, overreact much? It seems you have missed the point entirely, and slyly take swipes at me as if there is something wrong with my pointing out a few of the reasons why you may experience problems here. I was not judging you or vilifying people raised Catholic, but asking you how you present yourself on a protestant site, and wondering what you believe. If you are so delusional that you think you can present heretical beliefs without getting confronted by those who reject such beliefs, then you need to step back and reassess what you are doing here. I notice you refused to answer any of the questions. Should I read anything into that? I will go ahead and say you support at least some of the Catholic heresies, and inform you that you will continue to experience problems here as a result of that. I am trying to be helpful, but you may go ahead and slam me again while you pretend you simply want everyone to be treated with respect.

 

[Matt]

If you come to a protestant site where the official position is that Catholicism is heretical, and defend Catholicism, you will be taken to task for it.

I will take you to task on this.....

RoboOp has always treated myself with kindness and respect. Most others here do the same.

It's an easy thing to do and something that Jesus teaches.

Bless you my friend.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Well to my knowledge most catholics don't read the bible much if at all. Combine that with the false doctrines they teach at the church alot more of them are conditioned to be deceived than non catholics. Without that biblical knowledge to discern the truth they are at risk

Do they stop teaching false doctrine when they have visitors then? Cause I never heard any the few times I visited one.
...and is there a survey showing that fewer Catholics read their bibles than Protestants? Are we not all children of God?

 

[Magenta]

I will take you to task on this.....
RoboOp has always treated myself with kindness and respect. Most others here do the same.
It's an easy thing to do and something that Jesus teaches.
Bless you my friend.

So have you reversed your position and are now claiming that nobody takes you to task for your heresies? Wow. What exactly is your complaint then? Do you pretend to have treated me with kindness and respect to falsely accuse me? Haha you guys are so funny. You did not even answer whether or not you are a Christian. Wearing the label "Roman Catholic" does not generate salvation.

 

[tourist]

I think the problem is, there are plenty of non- Catholics here with false doctrine as well,
yet no- one says "We need to save the Protestants from their false doctrine"

You have raised a valid point. It is my one belief that every Christian denomination has some false or unnecessary doctrine or practices. Generally, those that bash Catholics do not even mention what denomination they identify with or even if they attend regular church services. Most of them do not even have a clue on even the most basic fundamental Catholic practices and beliefs.

 

[Matt]

Magenta,

You seem aggressive in your posts. You also think that I need to prove my love of Jesus to you?

What makes you so virtuous as to think I should answer to you if I am christian? If it were not the case then why would I have been around for the last 6 years and supported the site if I were not?

Please understand Magenta I ask for nothing but the same respect as others are given in chat. The same respect that I show to everyone. In no way have I tried to teach Catholic doctrine in chat (nor would I) and nor do I defend Catholic Church because everyone is welcome to an opinion. I enjoy listening to other Christians and the varying ways each interprets the bible.

I won't respond any further to you because I can't help but get the sense you feel Christian Chat is only open for a few.

This is not the case.

God bless.

 

[tourist]

Magenta,

You seem aggressive in your posts. You also think that I need to prove my love of Jesus to you?

What makes you so virtuous as to think I should answer to you if I am christian? If it were not the case then why would I have been around for the last 6 years and supported the site if I were not?

Please understand Magenta I ask for nothing but the same respect as others are given in chat. The same respect that I show to everyone. In no way have I tried to teach Catholic doctrine in chat (nor would I) and nor do I defend Catholic Church because everyone is welcome to an opinion. I enjoy listening to other Christians and the varying ways each interprets the bible.

I won't respond any further to you because I can't help but get the sense you feel Christian Chat is only open for a few.

This is not the case.

God bless.

For being a member almost 6 years you have written virtually no posts. Don't be a stranger and let the other members know who you really are and what you are about. Magenta certainly does not believe that Christian Chat is open only for a few. Why don't you join us?

 

[Matt]

Hi tourist,

I mainly get on chat but I will try in the future to post more as well.

Thank you for the encouragement to participate more.

God bless you.

 

[tourist]

Hi tourist,

I mainly get on chat but I will try in the future to post more as well.

Thank you for the encouragement to participate more.

God bless you.

God bless you as well.

 

[mailmandan]

There are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches. But those who believe the gospel of Christ, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the church with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may truly teach the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) If one truly believes the gospel, then one is saved. But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church but ended up getting saved IN SPITE of what they taught and NOT BECAUSE of what they taught.

 

[17Bees]

Well to my knowledge most catholics don't read the bible much if at all. Combine that with the false doctrines they teach at the church alot more of them are conditioned to be deceived than non catholics. Without that biblical knowledge to discern the truth they are at risk

I think that's the impulse and impression of a lot of evangelicals, but I believe Catholics just use and worship with scripture differently and can give that impression to some, especially those radically opposed to Catholic doctrine. Evangelicals seem to me to have a better system in place for bible study with bible summer schools and study classes and sunday school - especially memory exercises with children and the exciting recital of bible stories. Catholics on the other hand have a more worship centered structure in place with readings from OT then singing a psalm or reading one, then reading fromthe Epistles then the Gospels. The whole mass is structured so one who goes to mass regularly will study the entire Bible in 3 years. And whereas Evangelicals and Catholics read the bible and both use scripture for moral direction and doctrine, I think the Catholic lay person doesn't determine moral direction and doctrine on their own. Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:1-2 to entrust to reliable men these directions on doctrine moral direction and to "rightly divide the truth" 2 Timothy 2:15. I personally think this is very important to keep our scripture and worship as pure as possible, judged by generations of peers and not led astray by reckless interpretation

Evangelicals seem to primarily use scripture for personal instruction and devotion (which is good and biblical), Catholics use scripture for worship and meditation - also good and biblical and much the same way the early church used scripture Eph 5:19.

While I understand why some Evangelicals believe Catholics don't read the Bible and while I believe many Evangelicals can recite particular verses in NT, I think, too, many are not so well read with the OT and not well grounded in the foundation of the New Covenant. I know from personal experience that Catholic mass spends about a third of their time reading and analyzing scripture and then uses scripture for Communion and in Protestant churches, there might be one scripture reading, but that's about it. This doesn't mean one church is (to me) right or wrong in their approach, it just means I think we have different ways of understanding and studying scripture.

 

[Demi777]

Oh Matt what have you done! lol
*leans back and enjoys popcorn

 

[mailmandan]

Oh Matt what have you done! lol
*leans back and enjoys popcorn

Would you like some more butter on that popcorn?

 

[Demi777]

well im waitingt for my pizza delivery so no more popcorn for now.
stay nice to my friend Matt.. He likes ruffling feathers (like me he he he). Hes strong in his faith and theres no way moving that cement block haha
want some pizza too dan?

Would you like some more butter on that popcorn?

 

[FranC]

Nothing has changed since the 1500's in regards to official Roman Catholic not allowing the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption alone. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic version of salvation by works. Again I ask, "do you agree with all of that?" All of those Canons? As for the Catechism of the Catholic church:

Here is a summarized paragraph with references found in the Catechism of the Catholic church (CCC) of many of the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. How do we know they are false? By comparing Scripture with what is taught.

The Catholic Church is the one true church (CCC 2105), Infallibility of the Catholic Church, (CCC 2035), Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture (CCC 100), The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ (CCC 2034), The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation (CCC 846), Sacred Tradition equal to scripture (CCC 82), Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068), Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3), Grace can be merited (CCC 2010 CCC 2027), The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others (1477), Penance is necessary for salvation (CCC 980), Purgatory (CCC 1031 CCC 1475), Indulgences (CCC 1471 CCC 1478 CCC 1498 CCC 1472), Mary is Mediatrix (CCC 969), Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation (CCC 969), Mary delivers souls from death (CCC 966), Prayer to the saints (CCC 2677), The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ (CCC 1374 CCC 1376).

It's not about picking on Catholics. It's about exposing their false teachings and contending for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.

If you did no works at all, then you would demonstrate that you have a dead faith and not genuine faith, yet we are still saved through faith, not works.

None of those verses above teach salvation by works. It doesn't sound like you are fully grasping the errors of Roman Catholicism.

Works neither obtain or maintain salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.

Catholics are wrong about calling progressive sanctification - progressive justification. Catholics also reject IMPUTED righteousness (Romans 4:5-6) for imparted righteousness.

Do you agree?

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of God is reckoned to the sinner, so the sinner is accounted as righteous by God (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). This righteousness is not earned or retained by works. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Christ's finished work of redemption and is received through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Philippians 2:13). The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, as we continue to grow in grace. Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

Glorification is the future and final work of God upon Christians, where he transforms our mortal physical bodies to the eternal physical bodies in which we will dwell forever.

Hi MMD

I just lost a long answer to the above.

Let me just summarize:

I believe you should use the CCC when speaking to Catholic teaching.

I quoted the following verses and you said they do not support salvation by works. I don't believe in salvation by works! They were to show that we ARE to work AFTER salvation.

Works:

Mathew 5:17-20
2 Peter 1:5-10
Philippians 3:12-14
Romans 11:22
1 Timothy 4:8-11
Hebrews 10:24
James 1:22

Just as we believe, our faith should not be a dead faith. We are to do the work of God. I expounded a bit on this, but I believe you and I are in agreement based on statements you've made other times and also in the post above.

I agree that we are not righteous of our own merit, but are imputed righteousness through Christ.

I also agree with your explanation of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. I can understand why you don't like the term progressive justification - but it's words in the end, since works are necessary in both progressive justification and sanctification. Jesus did say we are TO DO. So whatever you want to call it is OK with me, but I do prefer sanctification because it does not mix up the two.

I'm protestant. I agree with most of what you're ever going to say. I just believe that many on these threads do not properly represent catholicism in their interprestation and that needs to be corrected when necessary.

I do the same for the other side, §BTW. Many catholics do not understand protestantism.

I really didn't say much more than this...

 

[mailmandan]

Hi MMD

I just lost a long answer to the above.

Let me just summarize:

I believe you should use the CCC when speaking to Catholic teaching.

I quoted the following verses and you said they do not support salvation by works. I don't believe in salvation by works! They were to show that we ARE to work AFTER salvation.

Works:

Mathew 5:17-20
2 Peter 1:5-10
Philippians 3:12-14
Romans 11:22
1 Timothy 4:8-11
Hebrews 10:24
James 1:22

We are to work AFTER salvation yet that it what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. Catholics say BY.

Just as we believe, our faith should not be a dead faith. We are to do the work of God. I expounded a bit on this, but I believe you and I are in agreement based on statements you've made other times and also in the post above.

That's encouraging.

I agree that we are not righteous of our own merit, but are imputed righteousness through Christ.

Amen!

I also agree with your explanation of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. I can understand why you don't like the term progressive justification - but it's words in the end, since works are necessary in both progressive justification and sanctification. Jesus did say we are TO DO. So whatever you want to call it is OK with me, but I do prefer sanctification because it does not mix up the two.

We certainly don't want to mix up justification with progressive sanctification. Rightly dividing between the two is critical.

I'm protestant. I agree with most of what you're ever going to say. I just believe that many on these threads do not properly represent catholicism in their interprestation and that needs to be corrected when necessary.

I've seen that happen at times. That's why I like to quote from Catholic sources and other Roman Catholics.

I do the same for the other side, §BTW. Many catholics do not understand protestantism.

I really didn't say much more than this...

Misunderstandings can be a two way street. Good discussion!

 

[FranC]

Greetings FranC,

The reason for the growing number of conversions is taking place because of the following:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - 2 Tim.2:3-4

" Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies that even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves." 2 Peter 2:1

Unfortunately, this above is why we are and have been seeing a mass departure from the truth of God's word on every level.

I remember we used to say that Billy Graham was the Protestant Pope!
LOL

In all seriousness, I do believe it's a big problem how so many different denominations have developed based on different beliefs. This is not what Jesus wanted. Paul also preached against this. I suppose it's our human nature that demands that each one of our beliefs be the correct one.

What you post is important. Instead of hearing the truth and accepting it, many feel the gospel message is too strong --- hence the trend toward No Works Necessary, and other doctrine that tickles the ear.


1 Corinthians 1:10-13 New International Version (NIV)


10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”





John 17:20-21New International Version (NIV)



20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.





And many others.