MARIJUANA.

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Weird how a topic can come back to life after so many months. Asamanthinketh, you might want to try another font color besides seizure green. It's unreadable as is. (Although it would probably be a trip to read while high.)

Now, let me clarify upfront before everyone tunes me out that I don't smoke marijuana. I never have. I've never even smoked a cigarette and I've only tasted alcohol twice (and neither time did I get drunk).

Personally, I'm not convinced there is anything inherently wrong with smoking marijuana. However, seeing as how smoking marijuana for recreational purposes is illegal in America (or as far as I know it is for all states), I don't think anyone should smoke it for recreational purposes. We should obey the laws.

Like I said, I've never smoked marijuana, so I don't have any personal investment in this debate. I don't think it's right because I like to do it and want to justify my actions. The reason I don't smoke marijuana is (1) because it is against the law and (2) because I've never had any interest. I also happen to think drinking alcohol is fine and I don't do that either because it just doesn't interest me, even though it's perfectly legal.

One of the main reasons why I don't think smoking marijuana is wrong is because I've never seen a good argument against it and I don't just assume something is wrong until proven innocent, so to speak.

Granted, I don't go around searching for anti-marijuana arguments (why would I?), so maybe there are some out there and I just haven't run across them yet. But usually the arguments reason like this:

1) Marijuana can get you high.
2) Being high is bad.
3) Marijuana is bad.​

In fact, this is just a bad argument.

The fact that marijuana can get you high doesn't mean it always does get you high. Drinking alcohol can get you drunk. But the fact that drinking alcohol can get you drunk doesn't mean it always does get you drunk. You can drink alcohol without getting drunk. Likewise, I assume, you can smoke some amount of marijuana without getting high. Now, having never smoked it, I don't know how much one would have to smoke it before getting high. But I'd imagine that smoking half a joint or even a whole joint isn't enough to intoxicate you.

If a person couldn't take a single puff of marijuana without getting intoxicated then I would agree: Marijuana is bad and shouldn't be smoked at all.

But it looks like the anti-marijuana crowd needs a modified argument:

4) Smoking marijuana has the potential to make you intoxicated.
5) Being intoxicated is sinful.
6) Anything that has the potential to cause intoxication is sinful.
7) Smoking marijuana is sinful.​

This argument still looks bad. (6) looks like it's obviously false, insofar as many good things can lead to bad things (and even being intoxicated). For example, sex can lead to bad things, eating can lead to bad things, coffee can lead to bad things, and alcohol can lead to bad things (obviously I don't think there is anything wrong with alcohol, apologies to the teetotalers). But these are not themselves sinful things. Secondly, God created everything, including the marijuana plant as far as I know, and declared it to be good. But if (6) is true then I don't see how the marijuana plant can be a good thing for God to create since the plant has the potential to make you intoxicated.

Of course people may have responses to what I've said, but I think I have responses to those responses. Not something I really care about either way, just thought I'd throw in my two-cents for fun.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

A lot of the comments that have been posted make me kinda think of reefer madness and all the anti marijuana movies / flyers, pot is not physically addictive, t
it is mentally addictive to some people though. Also pot does have medical properties, and like any other medication affects different people in different ways so yes there are people who get mentally addicted or have a bad reaction, others it just makes them loopy and others it brings them back to "normal". Does any of you really know why pot is illegal? The government made outlawed it because hemp was at the time major compition to paper and paper would have gone bankrupt.

I know many people that smoke, not all of them are responsible with it and they give people who are a bad rep.

Also a lot of the more recent studies marijuana use are starting to prove that the theory that schizophrenia is caused by pot is not necessarily true.

 

[JohnKnox]

One of the main reasons why I don't think smoking marijuana is wrong is because I've never seen a good argument against it and I don't just assume something is wrong until proven innocent, so to speak.

What if there was overwhelming evidence that cannabis can cause psychiatric problems? From what I can tell, it's on its way. A link has been established between cannabis use and psychiatric disorders, and the marijuana lobby has successfully tied this up with "a corollary does not imply cause". This is true, but what I've been hearing is that a cause is being established.
This is why I'm *so* glad I never tried the stuff before I knew this. My mental health means a lot to me, and I wouldn't be happy having to blame myself for damage done to it.

Oh, and to respond to the OP: if you do something that causes you to be brought before a psychiatrist, then I'd say you desecrated the temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 6:19).

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

What if there was overwhelming evidence that cannabis can cause psychiatric problems? From what I can tell, it's on its way. A link has been established between cannabis use and psychiatric disorders, and the marijuana lobby has successfully tied this up with "a corollary does not imply cause". This is true, but what I've been hearing is that a cause is being established.
This is why I'm *so* glad I never tried the stuff before I knew this. My mental health means a lot to me, and I wouldn't be happy having to blame myself for damage done to it.

Oh, and to respond to the OP: if you do something that causes you to be brought before a psychiatrist, then I'd say you desecrated the temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 6:19).

Yes, if marijuana can be shown to be very harmful then that would be a good argument against it. Of course many things can be harmful to our health in large doses that are not harmful in smaller doses (and are even beneficial), and we permit these things to be used and see them as good in their smaller doses.

For example, alcohol and fast food are harmful to our health in large doses. So is water, incidentally (a woman died a few years ago from drinking too much water too quickly for a contest to win a Wii). Or, perhaps more relevantly, cocaine, which some doctors use prior to surgery as I understand it (the pastor of my mom's church was given some by his doctor prior to having some sort of throat surgery).

So it would need to be very harmful to justify a complete ban.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I should add that unless it is shown that marijuana is harmful to this very high degree (perhaps such that smoking it once or twice a week is detrimental to your health), the "marijuana is harmful" argument turns into the same as the potentiality argument:

8) Marijuana has the potential to harm your health.
9) It is sinful to act in such a way that you intentionally bring harm upon yourself (all things being equal).
10) Anything that has the potential to harm your health is sinful.
11) Marijuana is sinful.

Again, 10 looks false.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

What if there was overwhelming evidence that cannabis can cause psychiatric problems? From what I can tell, it's on its way. A link has been established between cannabis use and psychiatric disorders, and the marijuana lobby has successfully tied this up with "a corollary does not imply cause". This is true, but what I've been hearing is that a cause is being established.
This is why I'm *so* glad I never tried the stuff before I knew this. My mental health means a lot to me, and I wouldn't be happy having to blame myself for damage done to it.

Oh, and to respond to the OP: if you do something that causes you to be brought before a psychiatrist, then I'd say you desecrated the temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 6:19).

Guess what, those studies have been proven WRONG in many recent cases.


Here is something for everyone to think about.


if marijuana causes schizophrenia and such, why has there not been a rise in the number of patients with mental illness? If there was a link between the two you would think that with the rising number of people that smoke, there would be more people going nuts.




One more thing, here is a favorite quote of mine;

"I loved when Bush came out and said "We are losing the war against drugs." You know what that implies? There's a war being fought, and the people on drugs are winning it."

 

[JohnKnox]

Yes, if marijuana can be shown to be very harmful then that would be a good argument against it. Of course many things can be harmful to our health in large doses that are not harmful in smaller doses (and are even beneficial), and we permit these things to be used and see them as good in their smaller doses.

For example, alcohol and fast food are harmful to our health in large doses. So is water, incidentally (a woman died a few years ago from drinking too much water too quickly for a contest to win a Wii). Or, perhaps more relevantly, cocaine, which some doctors use prior to surgery as I understand it (the pastor of my mom's church was given some by his doctor prior to having some sort of throat surgery).

So it would need to be very harmful to justify a complete ban.

I once read an article that claimed that a single use might be enough to do damage. I know, that's not statistical, but anyone who values mental health as I do, errs on the side of a complete ban, until more data is available.

 

[JohnKnox]

Guess what, those studies have been proven WRONG in many recent cases.

Many, eh? Proven?

if marijuana causes schizophrenia and such, why has there not been a rise in the number of patients with mental illness? If there was a link between the two you would think that with the rising number of people that smoke, there would be more people going nuts.

There is a link. Speaking of links: Cannabis Use, Psychosis Symptoms Show Strong Link. Marijuana lobbyists don't even dispute this. What they do dispute is that cannabis doesn't cause it (and that psychiatric disorders cause cannabis use, or the same thing that causes psychiatric disorders causes cannabis use). But I don't think that's going to last.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

Are you saying people who smoke pot for medical reasons do not value mental health?

 

[AliceOfLegend]

You are entitled to believe what you so choose.

but, I don't think that just because SOME people may have negative affects from marijuana, that it shouldn't be allowede. Because ALL medications have the potential for negative side effects.

There are stomach medications out there that actually have side effects of worsening the stomach condition for . Marijuana is just like any other medication and is not for everyone.

 

[JohnKnox]

Are you saying people who smoke pot for medical reasons do not value mental health?

If someone with no more medical knowledge than I have, is prescribed marijuana, and then uses it, he is pretty well doing the same thing I do when I take prescription drugs. All drugs have side-effects, and I usually trust medical professionals to work out the lesser of two evils, and do what they think is best for me. However, my feelings about medical marijuana are manifold, and I don't trust it in the same way I do, say, Paxil, Zyprexa, or Penicillin, for that matter.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

So you think that pharmaceuticals are safer than marijuana?

 

[JohnKnox]

So you think that pharmaceuticals are safer than marijuana?

Yes. Now if it (or its extracts) were to somehow be turned into a pharmaceutical (which would mean putting it through the same drawing-board and laboratory processes that all pharmaceuticals experience), that would be different. Why that's not happening, and who's fault it is, isn't clear to me. The way things are now, it seems to be about political interference (and I don't just mean by politicians).

 

[AliceOfLegend]

I know from experience that just because it's prescribed by a doc that it doesn't mean it's safe. Heck just because the FDA approved it does not mean it's safe.

People have died from prescriptions, but no ones every died from a marijuana overdose.

Some companies have taken marijuana and have put it into pill form. And it's not as affective as marijuana itself.

Also there are alternatives to smoking marijuana, you can eat/drink, vaporize it among other things. Some people tend to think it's unhealthy just because of the smoking bit.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

There is a link. Speaking of links: Cannabis Use, Psychosis Symptoms Show Strong Link.

Looking over the article I had a couple thoughts:

1. I didn't see where it was said how often the persons in the studies used marijuana. Was it once a week or every day? How much was smoked on each occasion? (Maybe I missed it.)

2. It's really not too surprising that people who smoke marijuana experience more "psychotic symptoms of delusions and hallucinations over time" (emphasis mine).

I mean, wouldn't we all expect someone who uses LSD to have more hallucinations (psychotic symptoms) than someone who never uses any type of drug?

This looks similar to saying that studies have found that, on average, people who drink alcohol were found to be drunk more often than those who don't drink alcohol.

3. The article notes that "if subjects stopped using cannabis, their symptoms decreased, and if they started or increased use, their symptoms increased."

So this article doesn't present any evidence for long-term damage. Prima facie, this makes me suspicious that the hallucinations and delusions aren't simply a result of smoking too much marijuana or too frequent use of marijuana.

I mean consider this guy - YouTube - Dearborn Michigan cop thinks he's dead from smoking weed - Is this the type of thing these subjects are reporting? When the cop stopped eating the brownies I bet his symptoms decreased too.

Finally, I found this article with a quick search: CML Psychiatry - Volume 21 Issue 2 - Cannabis and Mental Health

I didn't have time to read all of it but here is the significant portion I did read:

"Four major issues need to be kept in mind when conducting and interpreting research on cannabis. Firstly, the drug can contain varying doses of the main psychoactive constituent, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC),and many of the cannabis studies can only provide approximate indicators of the amount of THC consumed by the participants. Secondly, cannabis is often consumed with other substances. Not only is tobacco often used in cannabis mixes in joints, bongs, and water pipes, but cannabis is frequently used concurrently with other substances, especially alcohol. Thus, studies need to be carefully conducted so that the effects of each substance on the cannabis smoker can be disentangled. The third major difficulty for cannabis studies is that cannabis use is most popular among adolescents and young adults, generally a physically healthy population, who commonly give up consuming cannabis before their mid-30s. This, combined with the paucity of long-term studies of cannabis users into middle age and old age, means that the precise role played by cannabis in health problems later in life is difficult to determine. Finally, patients with mental illness who use cannabis occasionally describe it as relieving their symptoms in the short-term; however, this varies between individuals and, in some patients, the opposite may be true. Thus, even in those who currently use cannabis and have concurrent mental health problems, disentangling the direction of causality has not been straightforward. Together, these four issues indicate that, although there has been a recent surge in cannabis research, it is premature to make definitive conclusions on a range of long term physical and mental health concerns surrounding cannabis use [11]."​

Let me reiterate that since marijuana is illegal in America without a prescription (in 14 states), no one in America should be using it without a prescription (in one of those 14 states).

 

[lil-rush]

JohnKnox, just because a minority of people react adversely to marijuana does not mean it should be banned. Just like any other potentially harmful product, a warning should be placed on it -if it is sold legally- to let people know of the dangers.

When I worked at a daycare center, we had to periodically wash all the toys in bleach water to disinfect them. One time I did this without putting gloves on. As it turns out, I have sensitive skin, so the prolonged exposure to bleach burned my fingers. Any other person with normal-tough skin would not have received burns, but I did. I am a minority, though. Most people don't have sensitive skin. Regardless, according to your logic, bleach should be banned just because I had an adverse reaction to it.

Another perhaps more relevant example is my friends' mom. She was given medicine after having heart surgery, and one of the possible side-effects was depression. Most people who used the drug did not become depressed though. My friends' mom did become depressed, however. According to you, just because my friends' mom became depressed no one should be allowed to use the drug.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Yes. Now if it (or its extracts) were to somehow be turned into a pharmaceutical (which would mean putting it through the same drawing-board and laboratory processes that all pharmaceuticals experience), that would be different. Why that's not happening, and who's fault it is, isn't clear to me. The way things are now, it seems to be about political interference (and I don't just mean by politicians).

A good friend of mine who is a natural healthcare physician says that the medicinally beneficial properties of marijuana can be obtained in other ways.

But I wouldn't know anything about that. However, I assume we could also extract the beneficial nutrients from a cheese pizza and forget the rest of it. But why? So we have to establish it's harmful effects (or sinfulness) before we go through the trouble.

 

[vahn]

A spiritually on fire for Jesus Christian is someone who loves Christ and is willing to go the extra mile to be a loving example. I dont know what kind of Christian you're talking about, but that's what I thought it meant universally.

Amen sister

 

[JohnKnox]

I know from experience that just because it's prescribed by a doc that it doesn't mean it's safe. Heck just because the FDA approved it does not mean it's safe.

The mere possibility that a dr can make a mistake isn't the point. Usually when a dr in my country recommends treatment, the only question is: is the cure worse than the disease? How often do you think you're going to be able to answer "yes", and thereby avoid suffering a mistake made by the dr, your FDA, Health Canada or all the research that went into developing the treatment? Sure, drs, governments and pharmaceutical companies are made of fallible humans, who drop the ball sometimes. But I'll take the methodical approach to developing pharmaceuticals over the uncertainty of narcotics and the suspicious data surrounding them any day.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

Umm, marijuana is not a narcotic. Vicodin is a narcotic.

Have you seen all the commercials talking about paxil and other medications that have been recently discovered to have fatal side effects?

Also. All the medications that I have taken and had negative side effects. Those effects were not the cause of a doctors mistake.