Theology Debate Part 1 - Soteriology

[Perk]

Warning: I do not want this thread to be an argument about theology. More a way to challenge each of our doctrines and beliefs. Please, if you feel you are getting frustrated, angry, etc. take a step back and ask yourself, "am I writing this in love?" Please, include scripture references for any points you make. This discussion may have some academic terms that you may not understand. If you are having any trouble understanding what someone is writing, please take the time to ask before you make a rebuttal. This discussion is the first part of hopefully many more threads I will start. Some common terms that may be used will be defined below.

Predestination: The concept that God predetermines all of everything.
Eschatology: The study of things to come.
Soteriology: The study of salvation.
Ecclesiology: The study of the church.
Theology: The study of God.
TULIP: Commonly referred to as the five points of Calvinism/Reformed Theology. (T=Total Depravity, U=Unconditional Election, L=Limited Atonement, I=Irresistible Grace, P=Perseverance of the Saints)
Calvinism: A set of beliefs set forth by reformer John Calvin and later expounded upon by theologians such as John Edwards, John Piper, etc.
Arminianism: A set of beliefs set forth by theologian Jacobus Arminius, which contradict or oppose the doctrines of Calvinism.
Cessationism: The belief that spiritual gifts no longer are present within the world today.
Non-Cessationism: The belief that spiritual gifts are present within the world today.

There will undoubtably be many more terms used in this discussion that will require definitions. As they pop up, I or others will define them.

So the discussion begins!

Soteriology, the study of salvation, is a common area of dispute within churches across the world. This debate has been a hot topic for centuries! The first portion of this discussion will delve into the most important aspect of salvation. God! It is my belief that God predetermines those who will be saved by the blood of Christ. I believe this because in my point of view it gives more glory to God. To understand this better, I look to the concept of Total Depravity. This is the concept that mankind is in total sin. Without God, nothing we do is even close to being good. Because of this, man is unable to make the decision to follow God. Thus, in order to be a believer, God must change one's heart. Because God takes someone that is so evil that he cannot even make the choice to follow God, God is making an even bigger miracle, thus glorifying Himself more. Alright. That is a very short and incomplete description of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election, but it will suffice to get the debate rolling!

 

[Perk]

Oh and I forgot to mention... There is a reason I put this in the Young Adults board. I am more interested in seeing the extent of people my age's theological knowledge. BUT that doesn't mean if someone else has something to say we won't discriminate.

 

[Nautilus]

Ok but if God chooses who gets saved then what is the point of everything? If im chosen cool whatever, I won e lottery I never entered, dont have to do anything. If im not chosen ok then hats the point of caring? The whole argument behind election ruins the gospel. There is no choice involved just if you get lucky you go to heaven, if not well then enjoy hell? Do people still not realize how stupid that sounds? It basically comes down to God forces some of us to love him and doesnt mess with others. Yeah forced love probably fills real great to Him.

 

[Perk]

I don't believe it is forced love. It is grace. It is common to see election as being like a robot. But even though I believe that God chose me, it doesn't effect the love I feel from Him or the love I have for him. There is still a choice, but if God has changed your heart, how can you say no? You are making the choice to love Him every day, because of Him. It gives all glory to him. The point of everything is glorification!

 

[Nautilus]

No you're loving Him because He changed your heart to love Him. Not because you consciously saw your own despair and gave up everything to Him because you knew He was the only hope you had in a fallen world

 

[episcopotic]

It is my belief that God predetermines those who will be saved by the blood of Christ. I believe this because in my point of view it gives more glory to God.

<...>

Because God takes someone that is so evil that he cannot even make the choice to follow God, God is making an even bigger miracle, thus glorifying Himself more.

This sort of reasoning, I believe, may have unintended consequences. What happens if I believe that it gives more glory to God to be the "bigger man" and save everyone regardless of their response, as if forcefully dragging them from a burning house they don't want to abandon? And if one miracle is glorifying, wouldn't two, three, or 7 billion be proportionally more glorifying? Our personal view of what's glorifying seems so subjective that I can't imagine it's a good metric.

I'm not making these sorts of arguments, by the way, but I don't see why the same sort of reasoning doesn't almost immediately imply them. More generally, though:

Soteriology, the study of salvation, is a common area of dispute within churches across the world. This debate has been a hot topic for centuries! The first portion of this discussion will delve into the most important aspect of salvation. God! It is my belief that God predetermines those who will be saved by the blood of Christ.

There are more basic issues in salvation than predestination and this abrupt beginning in Reformed theology, honestly, does little more than identify you as one who holds these particular doctrines. Immediately, you've jumped into some very well-worn territory. I suspect you won't find any sort of middle ground or make any sort of converts, so one hopes your hopes are humble.

 

[Paulie079]

No matter if you're an Arminian or a Calvinist, I really challenge anyone who reads this to study what others believe about predestination and free will. I grew up going to a Nazarene church, which holds to Arminian doctrine, but during college, I took personal time to study Calvinist doctrine and found myself agreeing with it more as I felt it was more biblical. I settled there for a bit, but recently, I'm not quite as settled anymore and want to continue studying and learning more about it.

You see, I really think that if we're going to be fair to Scripture on this topic, it's important to realize that the Bible seems to hold both human responsibility and God's sovereignty in tension with each other. Tim Keller has a great sermon on this where he talks about how we in 21st-century Western culture are the only ones who have this issue because we form our beliefs on an either-or basis. It is either God's sovereign or human responsibility. It is either predestination or free will. But in the Eastern culture in which the Bible was written, they think in more of a both-and mindset. He goes on in this sermon to talk about how there are many places in Scripture where God's soveriegnty and human responsibility are held in tension with one another. One such example is a story in Acts where Paul is on a ship in the middle of a bad storm. An angel wakes Paul and tells him that the ship will sink, but that no one will die. But when Paul goes up where the other men are, they are getting ready to abandon ship. He tells them that if they do, they're going to die. Now, in our 21st-century Western mindset, we can't help but think, If the angel said that no one would die, why does it matter whether or not they leave the ship? But the point is that it did matter.

Christian apologist/author/speaker Ravi Zacharias holds a very similar view, maintaining that the Bible holds God's sovereignty and human responsibility in tension. What does this look like exactly? I'm not completely sure. That's where I need to do more personal study. I'm not sure what this means in terms of the perseverance of the saints, even though I'm inclined to believe that it is true. All I know is that a more balanced view between the two extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism seems to best articulate the themes that we find in Scripture.

 

[rauleetoe]

Ok but if God chooses who gets saved then what is the point of everything? If im chosen cool whatever, I won e lottery I never entered, dont have to do anything. If im not chosen ok then hats the point of caring? The whole argument behind election ruins the gospel. There is no choice involved just if you get lucky you go to heaven, if not well then enjoy hell? Do people still not realize how stupid that sounds? It basically comes down to God forces some of us to love him and doesnt mess with others. Yeah forced love probably fills real great to Him.

I agree...2peter3:9..john 12:32..1 timothy2:4.. i do not get why some think that us actually having a free will would somehow diminish God..i think to.me it would make God to be a tyrant and enabling sin..because if comtrols your every action..then he makes you sin..if he makes you sin..tgen he is not holy..and if he predestinrs some for hell then thats unloving..for God is love..1john4:8..plus in deuteronomy 30:15-16..therefore choose life..uf we do not have a choice then why would it say to choose? Didnt adam choose? God did not tell him to disobey..calvinism is an extremist view on Gods sovereign love and it is teally hard at times to discuss this with reformers because they will claim reform theology is orrefutable and will pounce on you if you speak about calvin or reform theology in any manner..

 

[tribesman]

To raise someone from the dead (sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins - Eph.2.1-3) is not "forced love".

 

[rauleetoe]

To raise someone from the dead (sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins - Eph.2.1-3) is not "forced love".

I was thinking..it seems to be lotta death talk..yet i do not see ut all bad..collosians 3:3 for you are dead..and your life is hidden with Christ...i am reading several books now..one which is a qui k read 'trouble with the tulop' mentions how adam and eve..being dead in their sins Gid still spoke to them..so..think about ut..if they being dead..could hear Gid. Who spoke to these dead people..would it be a dar thing to think thwy even dead..could do more than hear? Having a will..just a thought

 

[Perk]

No matter if you're an Arminian or a Calvinist, I really challenge anyone who reads this to study what others believe about predestination and free will. I grew up going to a Nazarene church, which holds to Arminian doctrine, but during college, I took personal time to study Calvinist doctrine and found myself agreeing with it more as I felt it was more biblical. I settled there for a bit, but recently, I'm not quite as settled anymore and want to continue studying and learning more about it.

You see, I really think that if we're going to be fair to Scripture on this topic, it's important to realize that the Bible seems to hold both human responsibility and God's sovereignty in tension with each other. Tim Keller has a great sermon on this where he talks about how we in 21st-century Western culture are the only ones who have this issue because we form our beliefs on an either-or basis. It is either God's sovereign or human responsibility. It is either predestination or free will. But in the Eastern culture in which the Bible was written, they think in more of a both-and mindset. He goes on in this sermon to talk about how there are many places in Scripture where God's soveriegnty and human responsibility are held in tension with one another. One such example is a story in Acts where Paul is on a ship in the middle of a bad storm. An angel wakes Paul and tells him that the ship will sink, but that no one will die. But when Paul goes up where the other men are, they are getting ready to abandon ship. He tells them that if they do, they're going to die. Now, in our 21st-century Western mindset, we can't help but think, If the angel said that no one would die, why does it matter whether or not they leave the ship? But the point is that it did matter.

Christian apologist/author/speaker Ravi Zacharias holds a very similar view, maintaining that the Bible holds God's sovereignty and human responsibility in tension. What does this look like exactly? I'm not completely sure. That's where I need to do more personal study. I'm not sure what this means in terms of the perseverance of the saints, even though I'm inclined to believe that it is true. All I know is that a more balanced view between the two extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism seems to best articulate the themes that we find in Scripture.

Man's responsibility in salvation is a choice. I don't think people understand that aspect of Calvinism. There is a choice every day in salvation. The thing is, when God shows us His grace, it is impossible to choose against Him. Because of his omnipotence, omniscience, etc. I think people see Calvinism as a robotic way of life, but its not. In order to understand it, you must look at the principles of predestination not as a type of robotic scify deal, but as a miraculous form of grace.

 

[Nautilus]

Man's responsibility in salvation is a choice. I don't think people understand that aspect of Calvinism. There is a choice every day in salvation. The thing is, when God shows us His grace, it is impossible to choose against Him.

You can't say there is a choice, you are just completely unable to pick one option, because then there isnt actually a choice...

 

[wwjd_kilden]

I don't understand the concept of determinism. If God elects the ones to be saved, He also elects the ones to be condemned.

It would mean He creates Pete and thinks "Him I will save i" and then creates Jack and thinks "Nah, this one isn't worth it, I won't save him"-

 

[tribesman]

I don't understand the concept of determinism. If God elects the ones to be saved, He also elects the ones to be condemned...

Why has it have to be so? Does anyone need to be elected to damnation? People are already condemned and dead in their sins. No need to "help" them with that. But for the opposite, salvation, it takes a re-creation miracle.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

but why does he then choose the ones he does choose? Let's say he chose you and not me, was it then because you are a better person than me (and God knew this from the beginning?). The bible says we are saved by faith. Does this mean God simply does not give enough faith to those who he finds unworthy of saving?

 

[tribesman]

but why does he then choose the ones he does choose?

We don't know. No man can know that.

Let's say he chose you and not me, was it then because you are a better person than me (and God knew this from the beginning?).

NO. Absolutely not.

Was that clear enough? Did you hear that?

Election to salvation is NOT based on ANY foreseen merit. So, it means that those who are elected are not "better" than those who are not elected. This is the "mystery" of predestination. See Romans 9. Even Luther said "why some and not others?"

The bible says we are saved by faith. Does this mean God simply does not give enough faith to those who he finds unworthy of saving?

None is worthy to be saved. All without exception deserves to be damned in hell forever. It is an enormous wonder that God is interested in saving ANYONE at all.

But scripture says, some will be saved, some will not be saved.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

oh yes, I do agree not all will be saved, i just can't fit free will into predestination

(Then again, I am just a dense human being incapable of understanding God's ways )

 

[tribesman]

oh yes, I do agree not all will be saved, i just can't fit free will into predestination

(Then again, I am just a dense human being incapable of understanding God's ways )

OK. But there is no "free will" (in justification in particular and in spiritual matters in general).

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Let me rephrase myself then:
I can choose to say "Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice, I do want to do my best to follow you"
or "No thanks, I want to go my own way"

In predestination, would God simply make me want to follow Him?

(please know I am asking in curiosity and not to be problematic )

 

[tribesman]

Let me rephrase myself then:
I can choose to say "Thank you Jesus for your sacrifice, I do want to do my best to follow you"
or "No thanks, I want to go my own way"

In predestination, would God simply make me want to follow Him?

(please know I am asking in curiosity and not to be problematic )

You do not understand that unsaved people are DEAD in their sins and trespasses and that God must raise them up from this death before they can respond to Him?

What can a dead person do, what can a dead person respond to?

Jesus said no one CAN come to Him if His Father do not draw them.

Jesus said it is IMPOSSIBLE for men to be saved, but with God this is possible.

You think God begs people to be His supporters? They CAN NOT hear Him, they CAN NOT heed Him - because they are DEAD in their sins.

Read up on it, lady.