Theology Debate Part 2 - Spiritual Gifts

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Perk

Guest
#1
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Warning: I do not want this thread to be an argument about theology. More a way to challenge each of our doctrines and beliefs. Please, if you feel you are getting frustrated, angry, etc. take a step back and ask yourself, "am I writing this in love?" Please, include scripture references for any points you make. This discussion may have some academic terms that you may not understand. If you are having any trouble understanding what someone is writing, please take the time to ask before you make a rebuttal. This discussion is the first part of hopefully many more threads I will start. Some common terms that may be used will be defined below.

Predestination: The concept that God predetermines all of everything.
Eschatology: The study of things to come.
Soteriology: The study of salvation.
Ecclesiology: The study of the church.
Theology: The study of God.
TULIP: Commonly referred to as the five points of Calvinism/Reformed Theology. (T=Total Depravity, U=Unconditional Election, L=Limited Atonement, I=Irresistible Grace, P=Perseverance of the Saints)
Calvinism: A set of beliefs set forth by reformer John Calvin and later expounded upon by theologians such as John Edwards, John Piper, etc.
Arminianism: A set of beliefs set forth by theologian Jacobus Arminius, which contradict or oppose the doctrines of Calvinism.
Cessationism: The belief that spiritual gifts no longer are present within the world today.
Non-Cessationism: The belief that spiritual gifts are present within the world today.

There will undoubtably be many more terms used in this discussion that will require definitions. As they pop up, I or others will define them.

So the discussion begins!

Cessationism, in short, is the belief that spiritual gifts do not present the way they do in the times of the early apostolic church. Gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. do not exist in today's church. Non-cessationism is the opposite of this belief. In today's church God does gift people with the ability to prophecy and pray in tongues, etc. What do you think?
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#2
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I believe they are still active, as I don't see a logical reason for God to revoke them. From my understanding of the bible one or more gift(s) are given to all of Gods children, whether temporary or permanent.

I will admit tough, that I am extremely hesitant to believe a person who claims to be a prophet, or to have prophetic dreams.
 
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Perk

Guest
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wwjd_kilden said:
I believe they are still active, as I don't see a logical reason for God to revoke them. From my understanding of the bible one or more gift(s) are given to all of Gods children, whether temporary or permanent.

I will admit tough, that I am extremely hesitant to believe a person who claims to be a prophet, or to have prophetic dreams.
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I think the thing with prophecy is that it must be strictly compared to scripture.

If someone says, "I had a vision from God and he told me that you should purchase a new Escalade for me," I would be very hesitant to believe this "prophecy."

Something more along the lines of true prophecy would be, "Hey Perk, I believe God is speaking to you saying, 'Seek Me.'" This would be much more biblical and if it is edifying to God, true to scripture, and applies to your life, it may be a true prophetic word.
 
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episcopotic

Guest
#4
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Perk said:
Non-cessationism is the opposite of this belief.
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This is probably an unnecessarily pejorative definition. This is akin, for example, to vegans calling everyone else "non-vegans" rather than the more appropriate "omnivore." By phrasing everything in terms of cessationism as if it were the default, you're playing unfairly. Why not use the standard "continuationism?"
 
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Perk

Guest
#5
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episcopotic said:
This is probably an unnecessarily pejorative definition. This is akin, for example, to vegans calling everyone else "non-vegans" rather than the more appropriate "omnivore." By phrasing everything in terms of cessationism as if it were the default, you're playing unfairly. Why not use the standard continuationism?
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I've only heard of the terms non-cessationism and cessationism. We can use the term continuationism. I did not intend for there to be an unfair playing field here. Appologies.
 
lil_christian

lil_christian

Senior Member
#6
Mar 14, 2010
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Well, considering I have a few spiritual gifts, I would say, yes, they're still active. And if they were active then, they're active now. God didn't change then, when the Bible was written, and He's not gonna change now.
 
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episcopotic

Guest
#7
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Perk said:
Arminianism: A set of beliefs set forth by theologian Jacobus Arminius, which contradict or oppose the doctrines of Calvinism.
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This is the same sort of thing here. By phrasing Arminiamism as nothing more than a contradiction or opposition to Calvin or Calvinism, you treat Arminius far less seriously than he deserves. What did he actually teach? On what did they disagree? As a thought experiment, these are supposed to be definitions. To what extent does it define Arminius to say he disagreed with Calvin? So did the Chinese Taoist sages, but they're not Arminians.

As an example of the insufficiency of the definition, if Arminius contradicts the doctrines of Calvinism, does that mean Arminius disagrees on total depravity? I was under the impression they only disagreed on four out of the five points.

Merely from reading these definitions, a stranger might reasonably suspect that you're a fan of both Calvin and cessationism. That's a bad sign in defining terms. I don't mean to pick on you, but clearly you want these discussions to be taken seriously. You're trying to be nonpartisan in setting up the debate, which is noble, but it's not really coming across.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#8
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Perk said:
I think the thing with prophecy is that it must be strictly compared to scripture.

If someone says, "I had a vision from God and he told me that you should purchase a new Escalade for me," I would be very hesitant to believe this "prophecy."

Something more along the lines of true prophecy would be, "Hey Perk, I believe God is speaking to you saying, 'Seek Me.'" This would be much more biblical and if it is edifying to God, true to scripture, and applies to your life, it may be a true prophetic word.
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I agree, but those are kind of no- brainers.

Let me give you an example: I want to serve God, and when I was a child I wanted to "go to Africa and help people there". The thing is though, many in Norway who say they are Christians are not saved (They believe in a god, not God, and not Jesus). And the town I live in has one of the highest percentages of poor people in my country (though it might not be poor compared to some other countries)

So: If a man said to me "God told me you are to go to Africa and preach", How would I know if it was from God, or that persons opinion? To me it would seem a right thing to do, but on the other hand, God can just as well use me here.
 
lil_christian

lil_christian

Senior Member
#9
Mar 14, 2010
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wwjd_kilden said:
So: If a man said to me "God told me you are to go to Africa and preach", How would I know if it was from God, or that persons opinion? To me it would seem a right thing to do, but on the other hand, God can just as well use me here.
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Though, if you didn't tell the person that said, "God told me you are to go to Africa and preach," I think that one would definitely have to think, "Okay. That just might be God." and of course, take everything as a grain of salt and pray about it. :)
 
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Perk

Guest
#10
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lil_christian said:
Though, if you didn't tell the person that said, "God told me you are to go to Africa and preach," I think that one would definitely have to think, "Okay. That just might be God." and of course, take everything as a grain of salt and pray about it. :)
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I see prophecy as a way of confirming things you may believe God is speaking to you about. And of course, the prophecy itself must be confirmed through prayer and scripture.

For instance, I was going through a rough patch of time about a year ago. I desperately wanted to seek God more. No one knew about this at my church, friends, etc. Some kid from my sister church, which is in England and I am in the US, visited our church. He didn't know me, but said, "Hey man, I feel God has something to say to you. I believe God is saying, "Seek Me" to you". Not only the words, but the way it was said, were prophetic to me. In my mind, I was making seeking God more complex than I should at the time. This prophetic word made my continual desire to learn more about God so much clearer.
 
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