I hope the bible can shed some light.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

Sideburns

Guest
#41
I'm not wishing to cause contention or confusing but seeking more clarification, so I pray you won't be offended :)

Anyone can be Saved, it is the Grace of God that allows ANYONE to be Saved, no matter what they have done in the past. To be Saved is a gift from God, given to ANYONE who will receive it, they receive it through the Grace of God.
^i^
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Everything else you said I would agree because I believe from my studies of the bible that this is sound doctrine, but please help me to understand why you say, and not even understand but from scripture please where this teaching comes in at? as far as through God grace we are saved? I thought it was BY his grace we are saved THROUGH our faith :D which is why I pasted the scripture there so we can take a look at it, thanks! :D
 
S

Sideburns

Guest
#42
What if it is my free will that god would do this for me? I think the ones that will go to heaven liked god's will more than theirs... And it became their will also...
Well please correct me if i'm wrong friend, but when I read this I hear if I ALLOW God to do this for me, I mean, that is the whole point of free will right? and I also agree with you Gloryb2God friend :) Gods will is always the better will to choose, but again you have to choose and the free will to do so :) see how that works? or am I only one? lol :confused:
 
S

Sideburns

Guest
#43
cool, and away we go. First of all to keep in context,Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

Paul is speaking to us all that are alive here now in the flesh are subject to the law, and how it has authority over us and is in charge of us as long as we are alive in flesh

Then he uses the example of Law by a married woman, how she is an adultress if she marries another while her husband still lives but if he is dead then she would be free tomarry another and not be an adultress
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him (in other words we need to see our Husbands (The Law) as dead. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man. (this is where once we see the Law as dead to us and we dead to the law, then we are freed to marry another, (Jesus Christ) our Savior our Lord

So the law which is good has become death to me, but the Law itself is good, just when ever it flows through fleshit brings death because flesh is weak and can't perform the Law, so in essence we become dead to self and alive to God by the resurrected Christ married to Christ.
Foir the Law reveals our sinfulness nad that we are not worthy of God and that we need God all the time being focused on God and thankful for what he did for us
Romans 8:3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
Then Pal goes on to explain that what a man does by the Law as he wants to obey he finds evil then present and taking him captive and anyone else captive to Law and since no man can obey 100% man under Law finds himself wishing to do good but just can't quite do it
Now going on to show us those that believe serve God in and with the hidden man of their heart, this would be the new you andthe Holy Ghost as one, but that he and all serve the Law of sin and death by and through the flesh, and concludes since he believes he is dead in the flesh as all are from God's vantage point via the cross that it is no longer him who does it it is the body of flesh that does it. And concludes with how he is saved and by whom only he is saved Jesus Christ.
Paul has been very clear through out Romans about believing by the death of christ at the cross we are dead to sin, our consciences purged by Jesus from all sin, cleansed, cleared, and alive to God by the resurrection, andwithout the resurrection we would be still in our sins, 1 cor 15 real clear on this point. Now all in conclusion Romans 8 and we now seek to the Spirit of God and no condemnation from God.
You know Romans 1-5 is wellrevealed of all this as truth, then Romans 6-8 is a recap of Romans 1-5
So this is what I see

amen thank you for taking the time to break this down to me friend I appreciate it :) now I'm wondering can you these verse can be used to support the notion that one doesn't not have freewill? and I only ask because I believe this is where this first started :) if you can keep up with the this', but yeah, so Im wondering did you post this scripture to show me that point or simply to inform of the wonders of the bible :) but truly Gloryb2God for the Holy Spirit who gives understanding, because he just gave me some understanding
 
S

Sideburns

Guest
#45
Genesis 2:17

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Genesis 2:17.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
btw :) I posted this as a response to this, care to speak on this subject friend?

Well, it is certainly will being exercised freely.

Whose will were we created to obey?

And is that really logical that he gave us a choice to disobey but then destroys us for it?

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#46
Well please correct me if i'm wrong friend, but when I read this I hear if I ALLOW God to do this for me, I mean, that is the whole point of free will right? and I also agree with you Gloryb2God friend :) Gods will is always the better will to choose, but again you have to choose and the free will to do so :) see how that works? or am I only one? lol :confused:
Sideburns I can show you verses that absolutely discard free will, and even free choice. First of all God says... I CHOSE YOU, You did not choose Me.... AND I LOVED YOU FIRST. Then there is old Testament verses where God says... I will take away your stony heart, and I will give you a fleshly heart and I will make you walk in my statutes....

Let me put it n a VERY acceptable way...

God knows best, I and I can only know what is best if God gives me the insight to SEE GOOD AND EVIL, but that is EXACTLY what Adam and Eve ate of... We should know what is GOOD and EVIL.... So here is my opinion of GOOD and EVIL... We do not have a will, Only SAtan wants us to do EVIL, and God wants us to do GOOD, so God has GOODWILL, and SAtan has BADWILL, and we can either do one of the two at any moment. So I believe free will is non existing, but a choice of two wills is on the cards... As I choose to be more good than evil, GOODWILL will be victorious over BADWILL...

The pain the badwill (love-less actions/sin) does to people is already in a loving heart the determent to NOT DO BAD. Sorrow for ones hateful actions is already a ste in GOODWILL directions... Repentance is this admittence of bad and the longing for not doing it... And God gives us that sorrow... The Holy Spirit is the one that REPROOF us of sin.. that is where the GOODWILL start.. to lay down the badwill...

Even the reproof of sin is from God, and to the ones He started this with, HE WILL COMPLETE! IF THEY ENDURE TO THE END... So they just has to FOLLOW HIS LEAD.. Again a choice...
 
Last edited:
O

oOfallen_angelOo

Guest
#47
In those verses, when it talks about a man being saved by his works, it's means following just the law without faith in the law. In those times, and still these times, people believed / and believe that just going to church, just praying, and just going through the motions is earning their place in God's eyes; actually, you have no faith if your mind is just to keep the law without a heart for it.

Every single one of God's laws has epic meaning, and when one learns of them, you don't keep God's laws out of motion, you keep them because you love to keep them, out of faith, and they are written on your hearts.

Keeping God's feasts is not easy; Ascension is coming up on the 9th and it's regulations are 5am services everyday and lots of prayer time. The feast of unleavened bread was pretty hard too, fasting for 8 or so hours and staying awake all through the night. But they were so much fun! Because they pleased God and were done out of faith.

Grace was a gift given by God, by his mercy indeed; but you have to receive Christ in order to receive it. It's not that you just believe in Christ, but you have to receive Christ's flesh and blood to acknowledge the everlasting covenant.

People think this is communion, last supper, or eucharist - but actually it is Passover.

Why is it Passover? Because that is one of the 7 feasts of God, and it has an appointed time and epic significance dating way back to the OT when God lead the Israelites out of Egypt through the Passover, releasing them from physical slavery. In the NT, we modern people, are slaves to sin; thus the Passover of the New Testament brings judgement against the false gods who have roosted in the Christian churches, as well as delivers us from our slavery to sin.

Very important feast.

Now, Jesus Christ was the Christ 2,000 years ago, and in John he promises another to come in his name to finish God's salvation work; this is who restored the Passover that was abolished by the Anti - Christ, whom the Bible says would change God's set TIMES and set LAWS. Passover was a set time, and a set law.

The gift of grace when God was beaten, spat on, and nailed to a cross, was that of founding the everlasting covenant; if one is not upholding the everlasting covenant which Jesus brought back, which was abolished in 325AD when the Christian church power of that time became divided due to pagan beliefs infecting the church, and was re - introduced merely 40 or so years ago...then the gift of grace cannot be given.

Passover also grants the Seal of God, which only the Spirit and the Bride are able to give.

Passover is in Matthew 26 and Luke 21 for Biblical evidence; note how Jesus tells the disciples to make preparations for the Passover 3 - 5 times before the last supper happens; Christ waited until the night of the Passover to make his everlasting covenant; isn't it interesting how the Passover was reported in the OT and then the NT? There is huge meaning there.

The Spirit and the Bride give the water of life ( which only God can,) Revelations 22:17

A lot of people mistake the Bride for the church; but the church can not give the water of life...but the Bride can which means she has to be God.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#48
amen thank you for taking the time to break this down to me friend I appreciate it :) now I'm wondering can you these verse can be used to support the notion that one doesn't not have freewill? and I only ask because I believe this is where this first started :) if you can keep up with the this', but yeah, so Im wondering did you post this scripture to show me that point or simply to inform of the wonders of the bible :) but truly Gloryb2God for the Holy Spirit who gives understanding, because he just gave me some understanding
Sideburns, yes people do use this as an excuse for sin, this would be taking being forgiven by God for granted an excuse fir one to sin, as many do. But I do not know how they think they will ever escape not appreciating and seeking wanting to be born again of the Spirit of Go9d where no sin is at or even thought about
[h=3]Hebrews 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Do Not Neglect Salvation[/h]2 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, [SUP]4 [/SUP]God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

[h=3]2 Timothy 3[/h]New International Version (NIV)

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. [SUP]2 [/SUP]People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, [SUP]3 [/SUP]without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, [SUP]4 [/SUP]treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— [SUP]5 [/SUP]having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, [SUP]7 [/SUP]always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.
I am so ealated over your growth in whatever it is you got, truly it is by God and this is the only way to know truth is to sift all through our born again hearts. And I did not post with any other motive except to bring out what I ahve been taught andtrust to God to reveal wahtever God wishes to reveal to any and all as God chooses not me
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#49
No unregenerate man has (is given) any measure of saving faith (Ro 8:7-8).

  1. Romans 8:6
    The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
    Romans 8:5-7 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  2. Romans 8:7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

    How does this say one is given or not given a measure of Faith? Would it not be given to all to choose consciously to excercise belief in and or not to believe in Christ?
    Did not Paul say man will not have an excuse, for all will have had their chance to make a conscious choice to either believe or not?
    And if God does not or has not given all a choice to believe God or not, then God would not be LOVE and God is LOVE best described in 1 Cor 13
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#51
Genesis 2:17

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Genesis 2:17.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
and when ate from this tree death passed to all men the first Adam and then came the second and by him restored all the ones that believe back to alive in the Spirit and dead in the flesh. Because when they ate they became alive to flesh and dead to the Spirit of God, their lving Soul that was alive was now dead. But today by the cross especially by the resurrection our Souls are restored by the resurrection of Christ and this is waht becomes and is our born again live in the Spirit of God wroshipping in truthand Spirt as is waht is the only way to worship

  1. John 4:23
    But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
    John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  2. John 4:24God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
    John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  3. John 14:17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
 
B

bleekerT

Guest
#52
Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. - Numbers 12:3, NKJV


God opposes the proud,
but gives grace to the humble- 1peter 5:5, NRSV



Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time 1peter 5:6
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#54
Now the man Moses was very humble, more so than anyone else on the face of the earth. - Numbers 12:3, NKJV


God opposes the proud,
but gives grace to the humble- 1peter 5:5, NRSV



Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time 1peter 5:6
and his strength is made perfect in my iniquities for I need him, yes I know I do. In our weaknesses God is shown as the strong one as Paul said 2 Cor. 12:7--------------onward Christain soldier
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#55
Only those who are born again are given saving faith.

The unregenerate have no saving faith.
so this is boiled down to beleif or unbelief as in John 16
[SUP]8 [/SUP]When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]about sin, because people do not believe in me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; [SUP]11 [/SUP]and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,086
190
63
#56
Remember the Messiah warned us that we could be told to depart because of our iniquity.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
136
63
#57
Remember the Messiah warned us that we could be told to depart because of our iniquity.
Again why would you say this are you still in fear of the Lord?
Because Sister yes Fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom, yet when you come to know the Lord
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:13[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love you Sister and God is LOVE.

[h=3]John 16:33[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Don't fear hoping for you to see this truth God just love you
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#58
  1. Romans 8:6
    The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
    Romans 8:5-7 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
  2. Romans 8:7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

    How does this say one is given or not given a measure of Faith?
The text refers to the unregenerate.
One must be born again to receive a measure of faith.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#59
A holy lifestyle in the light of God's truth, which is his word.
Would that be his life-style of Love living through you or yours, just a ?
Yes, because

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will not dishonor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor kill them, nor commit adultery with their spouses;
nor lust after their possessions.
 
Last edited:
Mar 15, 2013
1,245
14
0
#60
I'm not wishing to cause contention or confusing but seeking more clarification, so I pray you won't be offended :)



Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Everything else you said I would agree because I believe from my studies of the bible that this is sound doctrine, but please help me to understand why you say, and not even understand but from scripture please where this teaching comes in at? as far as through God grace we are saved? I thought it was BY his grace we are saved THROUGH our faith :D which is why I pasted the scripture there so we can take a look at it, thanks! :D
Let's substitute a practical example.

Let us say that the salvation you are looking for is to be able to drive a car freely on state owned and protected highways.

It is by the Government's grace that you are allowed to take that exam to get your permit. But the governments grace or willingness to let you try to qualify to drive is no good unless you have belief that your study guides will in deed equip you to pass that exam. So we can say that You are given the right to qualify to drive by the governments grace allowing your faith to be of value.

But you yet need to work the faith through study and preparation for that test which includes both a written portion and the actual driving of the car under the guidance of an instructor/authorized testing agent.

If you accept the grace but do not work the faith, then the grace is of no value to you. The test can be thus said to have been administered to you through your faith but it was only made possible by the government's grace.

Don't work the grace by studying to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15) and you will only fail the test when it is administered to you.

The actual thing saving you is the knowledge which you must learn so that you actually can do what you look forward to doing.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Words not understood are words not lived by and there can be no life until the words are lived by.

We know that the unclean animals pictured the uncleanness in men whose ways we are not to eat of as we do Christ's body. With that in mind, notice how the word of God and prayer sanctifies all meat for us, even as it cleanses and sanctifies us:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Spiritually deep and truly edifying is God's wisdom.