I have noticed whether it is I or someone else, anytime the subject of holy, righteous living is brought up those that support the idea are treated as unloving, uncaring, unedifying cretins. We are called everything from legalistic to unsaved, depending on our own work instead of God, even though we all make it clear that holiness is a work of God in us not of ourselves. It just blows my mind that all believers would not agree that we as Christians should live holy lives, abstaining from sin and lusts of the flesh. God makes this abundantly clear in His word. The fact that those that believe God's word and stand for His truth are the ones being ridiculed even in what is supposed to be a christian site is mind blowing. It makes you wonder even more about the state of the church in these last days, very discouraging.
Holiness n the chat room
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I have noticed it too. It's very appalling but don't get discouraged. Here's what the bible says about those persecuted for righteousness sake: "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 5:10. John 15:18 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you"
This reminds me of the Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-17. They were lukewarm, did not uphold holy living, and lacked zealousness for godly things (like most churches today) and God said He will spue them out.
This reminds me of the Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-17. They were lukewarm, did not uphold holy living, and lacked zealousness for godly things (like most churches today) and God said He will spue them out.
B
IT is a narrow line. We are called to be holy, yet we are incapable of it. We are to flee from sin yet all fall short of the glory, all sin. Grace isn't a free pass to live how we like. At the same time, we do have to be careful not to become legalistic. So it is a tough place. Not to mention that all humans like to justify our sin somehow.
We could all use regular studies of romans concerning sin and grace. We don't sin because grace abounds. At the same time we've got to be careful to correct in love, not by thowing stones.No that I am accusing anyone of throwing stones, its just typical behavior by many in the body to do so.
We could all use regular studies of romans concerning sin and grace. We don't sin because grace abounds. At the same time we've got to be careful to correct in love, not by thowing stones.No that I am accusing anyone of throwing stones, its just typical behavior by many in the body to do so.
People that correct with love are always misunderstood to be arrogant, closed-minded, and judgmental. So I don't understand how else someone can talk about God to a non-believer without being considered judgemental. I think some people’s idea of “correct in love” is to condone evil. Sad but true.
It's usually less what we say so much as how we say it. Usually someone is hearing what you're saying against their own tradition/private interpretation. Once you say anything counter to their system of belief they pretty much throw in the flag, call for an instant review of the play in question and then they play umpire, measuring and correcting what was said according to their tool-belt of handy-dandy scripture verses (that usually have their roots in a buffet table of doctrines and personal experiences). The mob usually agrees with the one that, like a Presidential election, pretty much suits their personal needs/beliefs and or background (despite taking issue with a host of other issues that any given candidate might have on the table).
There are a lot of doctrines floating around in Christianity that basically say (without saying), doesn't matter if you act like the secular world so long as you believe in Jesus. Otherwise we'd have to say it was by works and Romans says -- and what James and Hebrews meant to say was -- dizzy spell -- it doesn't matter, trivial issue -- Jesus loves you and I'm not perfect but he is and he's going to save my ungodly hide. Get on board.
If you want to avoid controversy, simply say, "try your best but if you fail or don't try at all, don't worry, see you in Heaven.". Anything else is going to have you on your toes.
So, speak out of love. Pray first. Try not to invoke the fire and brimstone hail-fire sermons you might be fond of because most of your listeners don't attend that kind of church.
Group discussion usually goes south on divisive topics so write up a stance on living godly and people who want to play ball will reply.
If you'd like to read about an Orthodox perspective on Theosis (which pretty much addresses what you're talking about) you can do so by clicking HERE.
It's a free book, about 49 pages methinks.
You just have to click on which language you would like to read it in - it's a PDF. I didn't link to the actual PDF because most people don't appreciate clicking on something that wants to know if you want to open or save it.
From the site hosting the book:
The beauty of this book is its simplicity. In clear and simple terms it states the original purpose of the Christian life—namely Theosis.
Its author Archimandrite George has been the Abbot of St. Gregorios Monastery since 1974. He is well known throughout the Orthodox world both as a theologian and spiritual father. He has written many books and articles on theology and the spiritual life. His works have been translated into many languages.
The idea of Theosis will be unfamiliar to the Western mind, although it is not a new concept to Christianity. When Christ said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand," [1] this is a call to a life of Theosis.
Theosis is personal communion with God "face to face." [2] To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ's teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; [3] His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God [4] a Kingdom not of this world. [5] When Jesus said, "You are gods," [6] "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect," [7] or "the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father," [8] this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.
God bless!
There are a lot of doctrines floating around in Christianity that basically say (without saying), doesn't matter if you act like the secular world so long as you believe in Jesus. Otherwise we'd have to say it was by works and Romans says -- and what James and Hebrews meant to say was -- dizzy spell -- it doesn't matter, trivial issue -- Jesus loves you and I'm not perfect but he is and he's going to save my ungodly hide. Get on board.
If you want to avoid controversy, simply say, "try your best but if you fail or don't try at all, don't worry, see you in Heaven.". Anything else is going to have you on your toes.
So, speak out of love. Pray first. Try not to invoke the fire and brimstone hail-fire sermons you might be fond of because most of your listeners don't attend that kind of church.
Group discussion usually goes south on divisive topics so write up a stance on living godly and people who want to play ball will reply.
If you'd like to read about an Orthodox perspective on Theosis (which pretty much addresses what you're talking about) you can do so by clicking HERE.
It's a free book, about 49 pages methinks.
You just have to click on which language you would like to read it in - it's a PDF. I didn't link to the actual PDF because most people don't appreciate clicking on something that wants to know if you want to open or save it.
From the site hosting the book:
The beauty of this book is its simplicity. In clear and simple terms it states the original purpose of the Christian life—namely Theosis.
Its author Archimandrite George has been the Abbot of St. Gregorios Monastery since 1974. He is well known throughout the Orthodox world both as a theologian and spiritual father. He has written many books and articles on theology and the spiritual life. His works have been translated into many languages.
The idea of Theosis will be unfamiliar to the Western mind, although it is not a new concept to Christianity. When Christ said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand," [1] this is a call to a life of Theosis.
Theosis is personal communion with God "face to face." [2] To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ's teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; [3] His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God [4] a Kingdom not of this world. [5] When Jesus said, "You are gods," [6] "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect," [7] or "the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father," [8] this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.
God bless!
S
I feel like I was partially responsible for bringing this issue to BibleStudy but was not prepared for the direction it took. I also believe in holiness. I believe in victory over sin. However I am not certain that I would subscribe to the sinless perfection doctrine in terms of reaching a stage of not sinning in this life. Like can we even produce evidence from the acts of the apostles or from Paul's letters that suggest such a position!?!?
Where I may differ from most is in terms of the free will argument that seemed to be jumped upon. Like, just pull yourself together and stop sinning statements that seemed to be being made. However I am not sure that I believe in the free will argument.
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
So there we have the notion of being a prisoner of sin. The same idea comes through from the Old Testament.
Pro 20:9 Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?
where this is a rhetorical question. The expected answer being No. No one can say that.
So then if we have slavery to sin on the one hand then does it not also follow that there is limited free will? Paul himself said in Romans 7
Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. (20) But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
This means, that if we slip up, we don't have our act altogether, and we sin and we regret it then we are no longer the one sinning but we have sin dwelling in us. For this there is no condemnation in Christ. We can still come before the Father, in confidence, knowing that Jesus has washed our sins, and I believe that is all our sins, not just that we committed before coming a Christian.
Therefore our free will comes from God. Jesus himself spoke about freedom from slavery to sin in John 8:30-36. If you read it carefully you will see it as a ministry of the Holy Spirit rather than a work of the flesh. Jesus words have power because his words are Spirit and are life.
Someone might say, if we don't have free will, then how are we accountable for our actions? Well, I believe that we are only accountable in terms of the insight we have or what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us.
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
So, whatever we do should be from sincere motives and if we fall short because of ignorance then that is not sin.
Now before some suggests that I am advocating a position of sinning under grace, no I am not. However this is where things get a bit murky because of the many denominational positions and biases out there.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
However, that is only if you abide in Jesus Christ. Its not a given that after we are saved that we abide in Jesus Christ. Its an optional position. Remember that in John 15 Jesus talks about the vine and the branches and those that abide in Jesus are those that bear fruit. Not just those who are converted. We are told to keep our eyes on Jesus for a reason.
Romans 8:5-7 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, (7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
Now this is where denominational bias will probably affect your interpretation of Romans 8:5-7. Depending upon whether you believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today or whether you believe it ceased when the last apostle died. However, I believe it is by the Spirit that we die to the flesh. We don't crucify the flesh by the flesh. When I say flesh I mean "self effort" or by our own ability. Verse 7 says we cannot accomplish victory over sin by the flesh. I don't even believe we accomplish it even partially by the flesh as if the flesh can contribute anything positive to the situation. No, it is completely by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. However, to believe this, you need to believe in miracles. For instance, a drug addict may overcome his drug addiction by the power of God. Have we not heard of drug addicts delivered from their addiction when they come to Christ?!? This should not be a surprise to us. This outcome is predicted by scripture!
Now if we look at verse 6, it says that the mind set on the flesh is death but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. Like Peter who walked on the water, you won't sink while your eyes are on Jesus. Again I have seen people try to use verse 6 to say we could lose our salvation. To say such a thing is to confuse death with eternal separation from God. No it is the second death that is the judgement of God, not the first. Otherwise what do you make of the following scripture??
1 Corinthians 11:30-32 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. (31) But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.
No, we should keep our eyes on Jesus. That is the secret to all things. However, we have the worries of this world and the desires for other things which distract us from Jesus and like Peter, once his gaze was diverted, started to sink.
I followed the whole holiness and sin discussion in BibleStudy and though many good scriptures were raised, although some were raised out of context, the argument was basically correct. I would however, say, that it was incomplete. However there was too much assessing what was in other people's hearts. That can make things very murky. I don't believe it is always the case that people reject the best position on holiness because of a secret sin in their lives or that they want to hold on to sin. In fact, often, I believe its a misunderstanding of the the grace of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the level of relationship they have with God. The best defense against error is the truth delivered with grace. Not just pointing out the errors of people's doctrine. They need to have something to replace it with. Those of us who have a greater revelation of the truth should lead by example and not word only. May we be doers of the word and not only hearers. May our speech always be seasoned with grace. (cf Colossians 4:6).
Where I may differ from most is in terms of the free will argument that seemed to be jumped upon. Like, just pull yourself together and stop sinning statements that seemed to be being made. However I am not sure that I believe in the free will argument.
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
So there we have the notion of being a prisoner of sin. The same idea comes through from the Old Testament.
Pro 20:9 Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin"?
where this is a rhetorical question. The expected answer being No. No one can say that.
So then if we have slavery to sin on the one hand then does it not also follow that there is limited free will? Paul himself said in Romans 7
Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. (20) But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
This means, that if we slip up, we don't have our act altogether, and we sin and we regret it then we are no longer the one sinning but we have sin dwelling in us. For this there is no condemnation in Christ. We can still come before the Father, in confidence, knowing that Jesus has washed our sins, and I believe that is all our sins, not just that we committed before coming a Christian.
Therefore our free will comes from God. Jesus himself spoke about freedom from slavery to sin in John 8:30-36. If you read it carefully you will see it as a ministry of the Holy Spirit rather than a work of the flesh. Jesus words have power because his words are Spirit and are life.
Someone might say, if we don't have free will, then how are we accountable for our actions? Well, I believe that we are only accountable in terms of the insight we have or what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us.
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
So, whatever we do should be from sincere motives and if we fall short because of ignorance then that is not sin.
Now before some suggests that I am advocating a position of sinning under grace, no I am not. However this is where things get a bit murky because of the many denominational positions and biases out there.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
However, that is only if you abide in Jesus Christ. Its not a given that after we are saved that we abide in Jesus Christ. Its an optional position. Remember that in John 15 Jesus talks about the vine and the branches and those that abide in Jesus are those that bear fruit. Not just those who are converted. We are told to keep our eyes on Jesus for a reason.
Romans 8:5-7 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, (7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
Now this is where denominational bias will probably affect your interpretation of Romans 8:5-7. Depending upon whether you believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today or whether you believe it ceased when the last apostle died. However, I believe it is by the Spirit that we die to the flesh. We don't crucify the flesh by the flesh. When I say flesh I mean "self effort" or by our own ability. Verse 7 says we cannot accomplish victory over sin by the flesh. I don't even believe we accomplish it even partially by the flesh as if the flesh can contribute anything positive to the situation. No, it is completely by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. However, to believe this, you need to believe in miracles. For instance, a drug addict may overcome his drug addiction by the power of God. Have we not heard of drug addicts delivered from their addiction when they come to Christ?!? This should not be a surprise to us. This outcome is predicted by scripture!
Now if we look at verse 6, it says that the mind set on the flesh is death but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. Like Peter who walked on the water, you won't sink while your eyes are on Jesus. Again I have seen people try to use verse 6 to say we could lose our salvation. To say such a thing is to confuse death with eternal separation from God. No it is the second death that is the judgement of God, not the first. Otherwise what do you make of the following scripture??
1 Corinthians 11:30-32 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. (31) But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world.
No, we should keep our eyes on Jesus. That is the secret to all things. However, we have the worries of this world and the desires for other things which distract us from Jesus and like Peter, once his gaze was diverted, started to sink.
I followed the whole holiness and sin discussion in BibleStudy and though many good scriptures were raised, although some were raised out of context, the argument was basically correct. I would however, say, that it was incomplete. However there was too much assessing what was in other people's hearts. That can make things very murky. I don't believe it is always the case that people reject the best position on holiness because of a secret sin in their lives or that they want to hold on to sin. In fact, often, I believe its a misunderstanding of the the grace of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the level of relationship they have with God. The best defense against error is the truth delivered with grace. Not just pointing out the errors of people's doctrine. They need to have something to replace it with. Those of us who have a greater revelation of the truth should lead by example and not word only. May we be doers of the word and not only hearers. May our speech always be seasoned with grace. (cf Colossians 4:6).
I suppose since I have much to say that I sould say this. WE are called to live holy and should strive to do so. Yet we are going to think, say, or do something that is not pleasing on God's sight. When you say the things you say calling other believers less then saints it does open doors to be attacked. Just like you who believer we can live a so called perfect sinless life others believer we will not be totally sinless. SO my words are simple don't make or try to make us who don't thinkwe will ever be sinless until we are caught up with Jesus that we are less then you or the ones who agree with you. This I do know we sin less as we grow. To this day I have not talked to anyone who said that they lived with no sin in thier live at all. But do we strive for that yes we do. Can we. No we can't
A couple of commits I myself have not nor have I seen anyone say people who are not perfect are less than any other Christian. Furthermore you say we should strive for sinlessness yet we are incapable of achieving it. Does anyone really strive for anything they know they are incapable of acxhieving?
I think part of the misunderstanding that night was that people took it as "hey guys we are going to make ourself perfect" no one in their right mind thinks that they can do that. What we were saying is that we believe God can take us out of our sin, He will overcome it, we have faith in him. It's not to brag about our holyness, it's about Glorifying God by the way we live through Him. It's not just about saving your soul but saving you from yourself.
Children of God, come out of the world. It's not what is intended for us.
I don't know what God has in store for me but I want to follow his example. To say that it's unedifying to proclaim the Gospel because it could offend somebody I can't apoligize for. I know the Gospel offends, it is suppose to. I ask you this, is it edifying to tell a believer that following Christ can't take you out of sin? It implies that we should just accept sin instead of following Him to thereby Glorify Him.
It's not love to just excuse and condone people constantly sinning. We need to bring them above that, that it is God's will for them too. Sometimes we need to be rebuked.
Children of God, come out of the world. It's not what is intended for us.
I don't know what God has in store for me but I want to follow his example. To say that it's unedifying to proclaim the Gospel because it could offend somebody I can't apoligize for. I know the Gospel offends, it is suppose to. I ask you this, is it edifying to tell a believer that following Christ can't take you out of sin? It implies that we should just accept sin instead of following Him to thereby Glorify Him.
It's not love to just excuse and condone people constantly sinning. We need to bring them above that, that it is God's will for them too. Sometimes we need to be rebuked.
I think perfection and holiness in the bible does not mean sinless perfection. It means whole-hearted devotion to Christ in thought and deed which does tend to result in separation from the world as far as sin is concerned and crucifixion of the flesh. No where in the bible does it say "strive to be holy" it says "be holy" as a present state of your being which is achievable only through surrender to the Holy Ghost as an act of our will. Christians will slip up from time to time but that doesn't mean they are not holy.
I just touched on this in another thread. Could it simply be that because we comunicate with words only via computer that we cannot see or hear the love, compassion or humor that would be seen if we spoke face to face. When I first came to this site I often felt that many focased on the law only and did not show the compassion of Our Lord and I was concerned and sometimes misunderstood myself. I prayed about it alot as I wasnt sure what to do. As time as passed I began to see through others eyes and realised that most do care. Another issue is if someone dosnt make sure and say or cover every detail they are quickly told that they dont have something in their faith. We should give a bit of leeway in this and simply bring it up if you see a repeditive failier. Also, as christians we all are called to serve Our Lord Jesus in many ways. I tend to be more about speaking of his love or feelings when I share. But I am always pleased to see when others have the scriptural memory to quickly support the same understanding as word recall is a difficult task for me. Instead of trying to say one or the other is wrong understand that Our Lord Jesus speaks to all people through us and there are all types of readers that hear his word in many different ways. Try and trust Our Lord Jesus on this and listen with your hearts. God bless, pickles
W
Hey Pickles,
I think that might be part of it, but we are in the same boat when we read the bible. I think a "tone", to use a metaphor ,can be heard in the written word. If some one said I was being judgemental or hypocritical.. I think I might read the passagages in the Bible that report the words of someone like the Pharisees, a group indentified in the Bible as having these characteristics, and try to make as unbiased and dispassionate evaluation as to whether or not some of that attitude/tone was creeping into my dialogue. Then I would spend a considerable amount of time praying about it and ask God to set my mind at rest if it wasn't and to reveal it to me if it were.
William
I think that might be part of it, but we are in the same boat when we read the bible. I think a "tone", to use a metaphor ,can be heard in the written word. If some one said I was being judgemental or hypocritical.. I think I might read the passagages in the Bible that report the words of someone like the Pharisees, a group indentified in the Bible as having these characteristics, and try to make as unbiased and dispassionate evaluation as to whether or not some of that attitude/tone was creeping into my dialogue. Then I would spend a considerable amount of time praying about it and ask God to set my mind at rest if it wasn't and to reveal it to me if it were.
William
One thing to remember, Although Jesus always aproached with love, understanding, compassion and grace. He often said: now go and sin no more:. Some times my discomfort as Im sure many others is the thought that they have to earn Jesus's love. For me a result of some bad teachings. But even though I am covered by grace my desire and all should desire to avoid sin. For many reasons listed in the word but for me because of my love for Jesus. Because of this love I try and hope to follow his will and by his grace I have sought this all my life and believe by his grace will one day achieve this. God bless, pickles
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