examples of speaking in tongues - need verification and explanations, please

[notuptome]

notuptome - black RickShafer-Red



Cleaning it up for you, rickshafe Tongues have not ceased because knowledge has not ceased. That is pretty convincing, is it not, uptoHim

So you know someone who has the gift of knowledge? Specifically what do they know? How is the gift different to what the rest of us know?
I'm convinced you need the gift of knowledge. It is obtained by study of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[unclefester]

Isa. 28:11-12:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.

(This is speaking about those who would deny the gifts, it would be nice to pass it off on a certain group of people in the past, but it is explicitly speaking about those who deny the gifts)

Read it again Rick and tell us all to whom Isaiah 28 is directed.

Isaiah 28 11- 16

11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,[SUP]12 [/SUP]to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that; (...... i.e....The Law)
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood[SUP][b][/SUP] our hiding place.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it
will never be stricken with panic.

 

[notuptome]

(Not a mention of Jew or any other special class in any of those passages)

Its really not hard to see 1 Cor 1:22 Signs are for the Jews.

(no, you said there were two divergent views, I pointed out that they were many more)

You are avoiding the point. There is only truth and untruth. Either sign gifts are active or they are not.

(read post #159, since you obviously haven't I will repost it for you)

I suspect I did not miss anything except vanity, emptiness.

(Here is the whole verse in context - "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." -So what you are saying is that tongues ceased with knowledge????)

Must have I see no knowledge here. What knowledge is Paul speaking about? Must be different from normal knowledge, yes?

("For after that in the widom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;") - How you get tongues being only for a sign out of that is a real quandary.

Acts 11:15-18 Gentiles speaking in tongues for the benefit of Jews. The same tongues given as a sign to the Jews.

Well obviously...you have proved it so well!)

Wisdom for gentiles sings for Jews. While you are learning you should learn how Joel said it would be. Joel 2:28-29 The holy Spirit poured out on all flesh but only your sons, daughters, old men and young men showing signs.

(He didn't,
you fabricated it out of whole cloth)
I Cor. 14:21-22:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”[SUP][a][/SUP]

says the Lord.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Isa. 28:11-12:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]To whom He said, “This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,”
And, “This is the refreshing”;
Yet they would not hear.

(This is speaking about those who would deny the gifts, it would be nice to pass it off on a certain group of people in the past, but it is explicitly speaking about those who deny the gifts)

Thanks for the effort. Better find someone who will teach you better exegisis. Isa 28 is all about impending judgment because of unbelief. Apostasy in Israel. That is God was saying to the Jews every time they saw tongues. Deut 28:49

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

[/COLOR][/B]Its really not hard to see 1 Cor 1:22 Signs are for the Jews.
[/COLOR][/B]
You are avoiding the point. There is only truth and untruth. Either sign gifts are active or they are not.

I suspect I did not miss anything except vanity, emptiness.
Must have I see no knowledge here. What knowledge is Paul speaking about? Must be different from normal knowledge, yes?
[/COLOR]Acts 11:15-18 Gentiles speaking in tongues for the benefit of Jews. The same tongues given as a sign to the Jews.
Wisdom for gentiles sings for Jews. While you are learning you should learn how Joel said it would be. Joel 2:28-29 The holy Spirit poured out on all flesh but only your sons, daughters, old men and young men showing signs.

Thanks for the effort. Better find someone who will teach you better exegisis. Isa 28 is all about impending judgment because of unbelief. Apostasy in Israel. That is God was saying to the Jews every time they saw tongues. Deut 28:49

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What a waste!
Carry on..........
For those who are honest, read our posts.

 

[RickShafer]

Honestly, it's not worth the time or effort to try to teach people that are so stuck in dispensations.

Like the Jews don't signify the religious?

What a total waste of time, trying to convince a person who sees the 'Jews' as an ethnicity, and not a spiritually proud class of people.

(Paul was a Jew, as were the other apostles) - - -But carry on with your dispensationalism.

 

[Abiding]

Let me look it up;..........Oh, here it is:



I don't know,.....might have got a few claims there.
Care to elaborate on your claims of two kinds of faith?

Is that how you dialogue? by presumption? making a negative response
then..................after a half dozen posts try to understand a post
you did not read?

I did not write there are 2 kinds of faith, any more than id say there are 2 kinds of Godly knowledge
or wisdom.....the point is that faith is just that...faith, the gift of faith would simply be a God enhanced faith.
You actually missed my point that was originally a response to you...and now your trying to make an issue
of what i wrote....and whatever your issue is alludes me even tho ive reread your posts
In otherwords what are you even talking about?

 

[RickShafer]

So you say there is a gift of faith over and above the natural faith of the believer?

I'm just trying to understand what you said. I dialogue accordingly.

The gift of faith was a special enhancement.......Is that what you are saying?

 

[GreenNnice]

Is that how you dialogue? by presumption? making a negative response
then..................after a half dozen posts try to understand a post
you did not read?

I did not write there are 2 kinds of faith, any more than id say there are 2 kinds of Godly knowledge
or wisdom.....the point is that faith is just that...faith, the gift of faith would simply be a God enhanced faith.
You actually missed my point that was originally a response to you...and now your trying to make an issue
of what i wrote....and whatever your issue is alludes me even tho ive reread your posts
In otherwords what are you even talking about?

IT's up to Him, it's not up to us what He does, why can't some see that truth ?

And, for uptoHim: it's not for us to KNOW who has the gift of knowledge over another, it is just as God well pleases and does for His will, good pleasure, and, don't forget , His glory Paul speaks clearly that who is a 'leader' doesn't matter, read 1 Cor. 3 last few verses

So you know someone who has the gift of knowledge? Specifically what do they know? How is the gift different to what the rest of us know?
I'm convinced you need the gift of knowledge. It is obtained by study of the scriptures.

It's naive to think, isn't it, that some are not with MORE knowledge than others of Christ things, like, yes, as you said, uptoHim, Scripture, which is where the Spirit who is in us reveals truth. All truth is revealed through the Spirit of truth (wow, green, you sound so profound right now ) .


uptoHim:

We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[SUP]a[/SUP] faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[SUP]b[/SUP] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

See, God's grace is what gives us our gifts, it sounds to me like we ALL get gifts. And, yes, indeed, there is a gift of knowledge, which simply means they can tell of God's Love to others, with His wisdom spoken through them. We don't ALL have the gift of knowledge the same, uptoHIm, just because we all read the Scripture. No, no, no, the Lord leads. He has MADE you differenT from everyone else on planet Earth, unique. Praise God for that.

I mean, how ugly would this world be with a whole bunch of same looking squirrels running around OK, that was a shameless jibe at my buddy, squirrelfriend, you KNOW, I Love ya, man

 

[notuptome]

What a waste!
Carry on..........
For those who are honest, read our posts.

Classic. Spiritual elitist too aloof to tolerate others deemed lesser in the faith. Claiming honesty for false doctrines. Classic. God have mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

So you know someone who has the gift of knowledge? Specifically what do they know? How is the gift different to what the rest of us know?
I'm convinced you need the gift of knowledge. It is obtained by study of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The gift of knowledge is used to help believers by showing them things about themselves that they have either overlooked, or repressed. It is a powerful gift, as people tend to ignore, or 'sweep under the rug' the things they need to deal with spiritually.
It is commonly used by those who have that specific gift.
It helps believers, usually by dealing with internal struggles.

 

[GreenNnice]

The gift of knowledge is used to help believers by showing them things about themselves that they have either overlooked, or repressed. It is a powerful gift, as people tend to ignore, or 'sweep under the rug' the things they need to deal with spiritually.
It is commonly used by those who have that specific gift.
It helps believers, usually by dealing with internal struggles.

What he said ^^^^


----

edit : LOL, of course, uptoHim, he did not write Romans 12:6, I got the attribute wrong, that should be this quote, one that rickshafe is beautifully dissecting right abovely, as I already saidly :

So you know someone who has the gift of knowledge? Specifically what do they know? How is the gift different to what the rest of us know?
I'm convinced you need the gift of knowledge. It is obtained by study of the scriptures.

 

[RickShafer]

Classic. Spiritual elitist too aloof to tolerate others deemed lesser in the faith. Claiming honesty for false doctrines. Classic. God have mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Not at all.
I just don't see the point?
How many scriptures are we going to parse?
It's a waste of my time truthfully.
If you are going to fall back on the Jews as the reason for the gifts.
And if you say only tongues was meant for the Jews that is even a bigger folly than saying all of them were.

For the cause of Christ? Really?
You sit in judgement, knowing not what you say

 

[Abiding]

So you say there is a gift of faith over and above the natural faith of the believer?

I'm just trying to understand what you said. I dialogue accordingly.

The gift of faith was a special enhancement.......Is that what you are saying?

Yes thats what im saying....in relation to 1 Cor 12 the manifestations listed
are supernaturally influenced powers given to who and when the Holyspirit wills.

 

[RickShafer]

Yes thats what im saying....in relation to 1 Cor 12 the manifestations listed
are supernaturally influenced powers given to who and when the Holyspirit wills.

O.K.
Thanks .

 

[notuptome]

Not at all.
I just don't see the point?
How many scriptures are we going to parse?
It's a waste of my time truthfully.
If you are going to fall back on the Jews as the reason for the gifts.
And if you say only tongues was meant for the Jews that is even a bigger folly than saying all of them were.

For the cause of Christ? Really?
You sit in judgement, knowing not what you say

I've seen the arguments before. I've endured the baseless accusations before. You cannot provide even the weakest evidence that the gift of tongues is genuine in the modern church. Frankly you accuse me of judging. I allege from the scriptures that tongues have ended. They no longer operate like they did in the apostolic church. Even if they did they would not look anything like what we see in the church today.
I am only concerned because I fear many are deceived by a gospel that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but the gospel of men. I could excuse the error of tongues if I thought that these folks were genuinely saved but their actions cause me to greatly doubt. They could be saved but they act like they are carnal. Again most of these churches have long left the precepts of holiness and purity. They have embraced hedonism with great zeal. Judging? No not really but in fear for their salvation most certainly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickShafer]

I think you might have judged a few people there.
As for providing a proof for tongues(or the gifts in general) you are right, I haven't.
Paul has.
Grace to you.

 

[SarahM777]

The gift of knowledge is used to help believers by showing them things about themselves that they have either overlooked, or repressed. It is a powerful gift, as people tend to ignore, or 'sweep under the rug' the things they need to deal with spiritually.
It is commonly used by those who have that specific gift.
It helps believers, usually by dealing with internal struggles.

UMMM But Rick,

When the Bible speaks of knowledge isn't it used in two ways? IE the gift of the Spirit which is what Paul had when he was revealing the mysteries that God had shown him,and knowledge from studying the word and using it in a practical way. Doesn't the Bible itself say that the word is a two edged sword?

Doesn't Paul also say in 1 Corinthians that the sign gifts would end?

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Three times in that chapter he says they will end. When the Bible says it three times like that it's for a serious point. He says they will stop and there will be a time when all that remains is faith,hope and love. So that leaves the question when is that time when all that there is,is faith,hope and love? It must be some time before the Lord returns,it CAN'T be when the Lord returns because we will have no need for faith and hope.

Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

The writer is very clear on what he means by faith,it very clearly says that faith is not NEEDED when we have that which we hope for.

So when is the time that will be when the sign gifts are no more between then and the time the Lord comes back? The Bible is clear there MUST be that time.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

very true...but tell me something......"if" as you imply so many spoke in tongues when they were bornagain
(now i think this was for a definite purpose as you mentioned 11:16;19:6) and you rekon that this was normal
SOP not recorded for book size requirements.....why does it not happen today? Ive never shared the gospel
with anyone that broke out in tongues or prophecied? ive also been to large arenas where the gospel was preached
and didnt see it there either....nor in churches....never seen it happen.

Why does it not happen today? But in certain arenas it does happen. . .people would not manifest the gift of holy spirit that have the mental picture that tongues have ceased; would they? Just read this thread. . .and see the instances of unbelief (not in Jesus but in the manifestation). For me to say it happened every time. . .for you to say it didn't are both arguments from silence since EACH INSTANCE is not recorded. I can only go by what we do have recorded.

We can for a certainty say that any born again believer has the gift of holy spirit and therefore has the potential to utilize all nine manifestations.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Doesn't Paul also say in 1 Corinthians that the sign gifts would end?
1 Corinthians 13
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

I think what Paul is referring to is when the fullness has come, those things that only allow us to experience in part will pass away. In other words, when we see Christ face to face there will be no need for these imperfect gifts.

I don't have a dog in the fight regarding tongues, but I see absolutely no merit to the argument that the gifts have ceased based on 1 Corinthians 13, because the fullness that would do away with the gifts has come. Just hasn't happened.

 

[SarahM777]

I think what Paul is referring to is when the fullness has come, those things that only allow us to experience in part will pass away. In other words, when we see Christ face to face there will be no need for these imperfect gifts.

I don't have a dog in the fight regarding tongues, but I see absolutely no merit to the argument that the gifts have ceased based on 1 Corinthians 13, or that the fullness that would do away with the gifts has come. Just hasn't happened.

But Paul does say a time will come when all that remains in this life is faith,hope and love. Can't get around that part. So when is that time suppose to be? It must be BEFORE Jesus returns.